Test Drove Lexus GS300, GS430 & BMW 530i today
03-24-05, 04:09 PM
#46
Originally Posted by lexguynj
I think we have all learned that you can not convince diehard BMW owner like Chiawei that Lexus can compare to BMW. This is a given.
Sure we all look forward to the GS450h and the BMW 550i (coming out this fall), HP in the 360+ range with all the latest gadgets for each vehicle and monster power, etc....
The GS450h will be ground breaking, HOWEVER if Lexus does not also offer a true sports package option / version for this model, then they continue to lag behind BMW in creating a driver's sports sedan, a car that not only looks good on paper and in person, but is INSPIRING.
Lexus VIDM, AVS and Sport Mode are all good efforts, but when you have to appeal to people that also want a comfy ride and offer only one trim level, then you sacrfice other aspects like handling, cornering, etc...in an effor to make every type of buyer happy. Maybe Lexus's marketing plan is to not go this route and concentrate on the more luxury aspect. However a BMW stock 5 series still can handle and corner better than a GS430. It's just different engineering in a car (German vs. Japanese). Different Philosophy?
Either way, the future looks great for sports sedans and the tougher competition puts us, the consumer in a great position when in the market to get a new vehicle!
Sure we all look forward to the GS450h and the BMW 550i (coming out this fall), HP in the 360+ range with all the latest gadgets for each vehicle and monster power, etc....
The GS450h will be ground breaking, HOWEVER if Lexus does not also offer a true sports package option / version for this model, then they continue to lag behind BMW in creating a driver's sports sedan, a car that not only looks good on paper and in person, but is INSPIRING.
Lexus VIDM, AVS and Sport Mode are all good efforts, but when you have to appeal to people that also want a comfy ride and offer only one trim level, then you sacrfice other aspects like handling, cornering, etc...in an effor to make every type of buyer happy. Maybe Lexus's marketing plan is to not go this route and concentrate on the more luxury aspect. However a BMW stock 5 series still can handle and corner better than a GS430. It's just different engineering in a car (German vs. Japanese). Different Philosophy?
Either way, the future looks great for sports sedans and the tougher competition puts us, the consumer in a great position when in the market to get a new vehicle!
I am simply stating the following.
1. Lexus performance claim has always been on the over optimisitc side, while BMW generally understate its performance.
This can be seen with LS430 5.9 second claim that no one has been able to verify.
As well as E39 540i/530i vs 01 to 05 GS430/GS300.
On this front, the lexus factory claim can't be compared to BMW factory claim because of the above.
My point is simple GS is too soft for my taste. It's much better than the W211 that i currently drives around as beater. But it's not as sporty, not as fast, and not as fun as E60i. They have different target group. To say that lexus is better than BMW because it suited your needs better is your opinion, but for what I am looking for BMW is just superior than GS.
Not saying GS is bad car. It's just not what a typical BMW driver is looking for. Period.
03-24-05, 04:11 PM
#47
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
That's what Lexus claimed. But no one has come close to getting that 5.9 figure in all the test. Some as worse as 6.4 second. Therefore my theory is more than perfect, infact not theory at all, since is based on fact.
03-24-05, 04:19 PM
#48
Originally Posted by Rockville
My experience with people who buy exotic cars is that they don't race their Ferrari or Aston Martins. They are almost collectibles. The ones who can afford high end sport sedans usually don't drive them to 50% of their potential anyway and the nameplate can be just as important to them. They mostly baby these wonderful cars. Here at Club Lexus there is a tradition of Mods to their GS and IS series. BMW in particular makes you pay a la carte for things that are just included in many Lexus. Lexus just is more reliable and sometimes BMW owners get tired of the constant headaches despite the performance aspect. What I'm trying to say is that the buyers aren't rally drivers but enjoy a nice car from stop light to stop light and can afford the best. The Controller Area Network is BMW's Achilles heel and Lexus is catching up or surpassing BMW in performance. The BMW case is just not as compelling as it used to be. You still must pay a premium for the old Bavarian Airplane Propeller badge. Lexus has moved into the future with Hybrids and even Porsche has joined them because they can't do it themselves.
YOU ARE SO WRONG AND BIASED.
I have been to many premium brand. BMW drivers remain one of the most knowlegeable and mechanically sufficient of all luxury brand.
There are tons of BMW owners out there that tune the crap out of their car as compare to IS/GS owners. I have sunk over 15K on the 530i in performance upgrades. I did not like the E39 540i's steering response, that's why I went with 530i and super charged it along with other upgrades. I had works done on the M as well.
Majority of lexus owners are mirror of mercedes owners, either mechanically challenged or simply clueless. Yes there are some GS/Is owner that tune their car because it share the same L6 iron block as the old supra. But if you venture outside your world, you will find there are so many owners that modify the crap out of the M3 and M5.
Also you may want to conduct a poll to see how many lexus owners take their car to track vs BMW owners. don't be surpised to find that a lot of BMW owners has track experiences.
Talking lexus mod and compare to mod on BMW is like comparing an infant taking its 1st step with a full grown athelete running a mile long race.
To be honest, had the IS/GS not used the supra based iron-block based 3.0 L6, do you really think that the mod potential is there? 2JZ-GTE is a great L6 that can withstand a lot of boost. IS300/GS300 benefit a great deal from it. But to use that as example to compare to BMW hitory of modification is really ridiculous.
I started messing around cars with civic's. So i do have very good knowledge on japanese cars.
03-24-05, 04:25 PM
#49
Originally Posted by flipside909
More than perfect? Your theories are guesses not fact. Don't confuse the facts with your theories.
The 04 LS430 at 3990 LB with 6 speed manuatic did 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.4 (depends on which test you choose). So show me who has been able to match Lexus claim of 5.9. (NONE).
The 745i despite weighting 400lb more, did 0-60 in 6.0 to 6.1 (depends on which test). While has only 3% torque advantage.
So where is my fact wrong?
According to mr. wolf.
in automatic 0-60 depends on the following
1. Weight- BMW loses this one by 10%
2. Gearing- LS is geared closer
3. torque- BMW wins this by merely 3%.
In addition, mr. wolf claim that BMW has huge displacement advangtage (the different was about 100cc).
My fact are straight and clear. With only 3% more torque to compensate 10% more weight and still beat is by a significant margin. BMW's engine output claim is more conservative than Lexu's claim.
03-24-05, 04:31 PM
#50
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
I started messing around cars with civic's. So i do have very good knowledge on japanese cars.
03-24-05, 04:36 PM
#51
Originally Posted by lexguynj
When you buy a vehicle over $50K+ why must you spend the time in the aftermarket to further modify your $50K+ car? Many people on CL enjoy modding their cars, I guess I am too old for this and don't have the time, so I expect more for my money when test driving or finally driving the vehicle off the lot.
We are also talking about a Sports Sedan here, not a luxury cruiser like the LS. We not only want the power, but everything else that is associated with a Sports Sedan, because we don't consider a car like this just a commuter car, we desire driving this vehicle because it's so fun.
Also the BMW reliablity issue is real, but BMW'S reliability is still above average and it's a well built vehicle with the same warranty as Lexus and in addition Full Schedule Maintenance for 4 years / 50K miles.
We are also talking about a Sports Sedan here, not a luxury cruiser like the LS. We not only want the power, but everything else that is associated with a Sports Sedan, because we don't consider a car like this just a commuter car, we desire driving this vehicle because it's so fun.
Also the BMW reliablity issue is real, but BMW'S reliability is still above average and it's a well built vehicle with the same warranty as Lexus and in addition Full Schedule Maintenance for 4 years / 50K miles.
Btw, I find it perfectly okay to mod car even if you buy a 100k M5 or E55. (although i found it point less to modify my E55 because it will always handle like a overweight pig even if I can crank over 600 HP from it, but there are a lot of E55 owners would like to brag about 0-60).
I have plan to mod my new M5 and M3 when it arrives (will that is pending). Mod car is a fun hobby for me. But the car must be a good base to work with. I picked a 01 IS300 over 330i because of that (did not have chance to mod, because it was stolen soon after I got it). Is300 has a very good base to begin modding. (decen chassis, good brakes and pedal feel, and most important a durable iron block that has tons of mod already available).
As far as BMW reliablility issues goes. Yes, it's no where close to lexus. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be. And most BMW owner would overlook the reliability issues because they value fun factor more. Plus a lot of BMW owners i know has toyota as daily transportation. I have a sienna minivan. Like i said, I can tolerate issues from BMW because i have back up plan to fall back on. If something breaks, i just go grab another set of keys and off i go. If i can't stand it any longer, i simply sell the car and walk away.
I am not saying that all of you should think like me or do what I am told. I am just stating a different mindset. A car is a car. No need to dwell on it.
03-24-05, 04:38 PM
#52
Originally Posted by flipside909
So you think messing with Civics gives you ASE certification for other Japanese cars? Wrong.
And i would appreciate you star to answer my questions with some fact as well.
BMW mod histroy goes back to 2002 era. Japanese mod did not become a craze until early 1990. (that is more 20 years of head start on BMW mods).
thank you. Truth is always painful.
03-24-05, 04:39 PM
#53
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
Okay, then prove it to me.
The 04 LS430 at 3990 LB with 6 speed manuatic did 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.4 (depends on which test you choose). So show me who has been able to match Lexus claim of 5.9. (NONE).
The 04 LS430 at 3990 LB with 6 speed manuatic did 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.4 (depends on which test you choose). So show me who has been able to match Lexus claim of 5.9. (NONE).
03-24-05, 04:42 PM
#54
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
No, but at least i expect someone to do more homework before posting errorneous information.
And i would appreciate you star to answer my questions with some fact as well.
BMW mod histroy goes back to 2002 era. Japanese mod did not become a craze until early 1990. (that is more 20 years of head start on BMW mods).
thank you. Truth is always painful.
And i would appreciate you star to answer my questions with some fact as well.
BMW mod histroy goes back to 2002 era. Japanese mod did not become a craze until early 1990. (that is more 20 years of head start on BMW mods).
thank you. Truth is always painful.
Lastly, don't ask a question with a question. You answer my question first. Find another source other than google, then we'll talk. Perhaps you should take your own advice on what you posted previously stated "A car is a car. No need to dwell on it."
Last edited by flipside909; 03-25-05 at 04:34 PM.
03-24-05, 05:10 PM
#55
Originally Posted by chiawei
Okay, then prove it to me.
The 04 LS430 at 3990 LB with 6 speed manuatic did 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.4 (depends on which test you choose). So show me who has been able to match Lexus claim of 5.9. (NONE).
The 745i despite weighting 400lb more, did 0-60 in 6.0 to 6.1 (depends on which test). While has only 3% torque advantage.
So where is my fact wrong?
According to mr. wolf.
in automatic 0-60 depends on the following
1. Weight- BMW loses this one by 10%
2. Gearing- LS is geared closer
3. torque- BMW wins this by merely 3%.
In addition, mr. wolf claim that BMW has huge displacement advangtage (the different was about 100cc).
My fact are straight and clear. With only 3% more torque to compensate 10% more weight and still beat is by a significant margin. BMW's engine output claim is more conservative than Lexu's claim.
The 04 LS430 at 3990 LB with 6 speed manuatic did 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.4 (depends on which test you choose). So show me who has been able to match Lexus claim of 5.9. (NONE).
The 745i despite weighting 400lb more, did 0-60 in 6.0 to 6.1 (depends on which test). While has only 3% torque advantage.
So where is my fact wrong?
According to mr. wolf.
in automatic 0-60 depends on the following
1. Weight- BMW loses this one by 10%
2. Gearing- LS is geared closer
3. torque- BMW wins this by merely 3%.
In addition, mr. wolf claim that BMW has huge displacement advangtage (the different was about 100cc).
My fact are straight and clear. With only 3% more torque to compensate 10% more weight and still beat is by a significant margin. BMW's engine output claim is more conservative than Lexu's claim.
GS430 run an nice 5.7 0-60 in last CD comparo, just as lexus claimed... BMW 530 did 6.9, which is 0.1 sec slower than what BMW claimed. In fact, new 530 will do even worse (compared with official stats), due to having ONLY 4lbs of torque more than old...
Now based on your insinuations, we can now spin an story how BMW over-rates the car while Lexus does not...lol.
p.s. flip, 2002 was an BMW model from loooooong ago :-)
03-24-05, 05:19 PM
#56
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by spwolf
p.s. flip, 2002 was an BMW model from loooooong ago :-)
03-24-05, 07:29 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by lexguynj
...You can't beat Lexus reliability, but BMW'S reliability is still above average.
07-31-05, 10:11 PM
#59
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If you ask me, ill get the GS430. If it is not an M series, it's not "The ultimate driving machine". Some might agree with me, some might not. The only BMW's I would ever consider purchasing are the M series. This is just my opinion.
