jrock65

You asked me: "So what's your point?"

So I answered.

doug_999

Well since you asked...
I was expecting to find...
1. A different engine than the one I have - maybe 10 more hp? Maybe 1? Nada. The car weighs 50 lbs less, has a 6 speed trans and does 0-60 in .1 seconds faster?
2. A sport option - come on Lexus see the light. This is an option that we crave - don't tell me this is not Lexus' game when the new IS has 300+ hp.
3. Satellite radio - where is it? I still don't know how to get it - and neither does the dealer. Sure doesn't seem to be standard like the other cars in this class (RL, M45). Is it a dealer installed option? I still don't know (nor did the dealer).
4. AWD on the GS430 - why is it not there? I read that until they get 75% of GS300 orders in AWD config, they will not even consider putting it in the GS430. Everyone is putting AWD in their cars these days (even Lexus) - why not in the GS430? Why not in the M45? (note it is in the A6, RL, STS, and E500)

Rockville, I hate to tell you, but a NAV system that performs 10x faster does nothing for me. The old one figures out my route in under 15 seconds. I can wait - since I have to do it since I have to be parked to use it anyway. Give me the NAV with real time traffic then we are talking.

PS - I'm betting the GS460 or whatever it is called will have a sport package option. .

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

That maybe true for you or some other buyers, but just because some people can afford a 10K spread doesn't mean they want to pay it or think it's worth it. Many wealthier people didn't get that way by paying more than they thought something was worth.

You mean the GS350 AWD that doesn't exist? That comparison then is what, at least 18 months away? If Lexus really only has the new 3.0 V6 for a year I think that will be majorly bad, but then, since the GS300 is not fast maybe most customers won't care if a 3.5 replaces it.

Again, you mean a GS460 that doesn't exist? If they've just announced the 200*7* GS450h (a year away from showrooms) how long is the GS460 away? And competition isn't standing still.

Lets face it, Lexus BLEW it by putting the same old 4.3 in the new GS. That was stupid. But they couldn't wait I guess and didn't want to put a bigger engine in that than the LS. And if they're coming out with a 3.5 for the GS, why start with a 3.0!?

That's a good point. I expect the GS450h is gonna start around $65K since it comes with most of the options on the GS430 so it's gonna be interesting to figure out what to compare it with. People who buy $65K sport sedans though don't give a rats patoot about fuel economy so that's actually a weak sales point for the GS450h. Now if it goes like stink AND gets better fuel economy that's a nice bonus. But if it goes fast Lexus is gonna HAVE to offer a better wheel/tire/suspension setup. The current stuff is still so weak in fitment and sitting so high.

Of course the new GS is selling well right now... for several reasons. It's a new Lexus for one. It's a decent overall package and very refined. But also don't forget the TON of advertising Lexus is doing. They don't it just to waste money, they do it because it WORKS.

chiawei

Here is what I don't like about C&D's test recently.

Apparently every recent they have done has already pre-determined winner and would simply twist the numbers around to make a point.

C&D listed the 530i that tested at $54,720. That's almost a fully loaded 530iA. But the car they tested is a basic 530i, which should list no more than $51k.

Judging from the car. It had the following options, 6 speed automatic $1,275, premium sound and premium pkg $3600, and HID $800, The MSRP on it should be at $51,770.

Where did the $54,720 sticker come from? If C&D wants to make a point that they hate BMW now, at least don't pull BS like this.

In addition, the car tested was a none-sport 530i. Which means it has no active steering nor active anti-roll stablization. Yet C&D never caught that and mentioned that active steering response has improved.

If C&D is going to twist the test, why not go grab a base 545i , which list for $56945.

In addition, the price on the GS430 is wrong as well. That car came with additional options such as sunroof and parking sensor. GS430 would be the most expansive at $57,305. Where did the 55k come from?

C&D has just gotten worse and worse in faking the test data to make a point.

GS430 should have beaten the RL. I don't understand how is that RL performance would score higher than GS.

The results are what I expect it would be (except the GS430 finished behind RL), but the process is tainted.

As far as german HP vs Lexus HP, i think I am still correct. Even with crappier tire the 530iA managed a sub 7 second in 0-60.

So with 20HP less, and 16lb-ft less of torque. The 530iA run neck to neck with the new GS300 (per Lexus claim, as there is no real number yet). My point is still valid BMW's HP claim are more conservative than lexus is.

psteng19

I would hardly say that any car mag has any bias against BMW.
Proof is that they've won so many comparison's the past decade.
BMW has to look no further than at themselves to see why they lost, namely pricing, styling and iDrive.

I believe Active Steering is available as a stand-alone option.

LiquidBlue

Simple. Because Lexus is a business and they want to make the most profits as they possibly can. If they introduced the new GS with a brand new 3.5 liter V6 and a brand new 4.6 liter V8, they would destroy the resale value of the previous generation. Their pre-owned market is huge. At least by keeping the engines the same for a year or two, they keep the 2002, 2003 GS's as a viable option. Lexus likes to take baby steps with things like this. First a new body style with some new technological features, then eventually an engine upgrade, etc etc. It helps to keep people anxious for the next best thing and keeps their resale value very healthy. Smart.

Incendiary

No stick, no sale. Visceral feel of driving excitement is gone. Has nothing to do with how it objectively handles, it's all subjective. If you don't get it, then that's fine, but it's certainly much more than NVH.

This whole new generation of cars is the same. M45, E60 5-series, new GS, all handle very well but there's no fun factor. Oh well, at least the 5er has a MT option.

chiawei

Yes, you are indeed correct that AFS is stand alone option. So my mistake on that. Still, even with that additional 1k. It still no where close to $54,7xx that C&D claimed.

Yes, pricing is an issue. But C&D did deliberately over boost one car's price and lowered the price on one. That GS did not list for $55.7.

Moreover, the 530i with old L6 is already out of production and new car is due actually about 1 month away. If C&D allowed GS430 tested to take $1500 off (undercut the 545i by 1k). They could have asked for a base 545i for the comparison.

In addition, there is a mistake too. The old 525i/530i/545i has been heavily discounted with a lot of incentive (therefore it should have received a score there).

I am not saying that 530i would have beaten GS430 (because it should not). But at least C&D could have do a better job picking the car for comparison or simply wait for one additional month for the new L6.

BTW, this should put to rest that the new 2006 GS300 is faster than 530i. Given the fact that the old 530i is already as fast as the new GS300. The new 530i is slightly lighter and more powerful than the outgoing 530i.

I would have ranked the E350 lower than both audi and 530i. Since like C&D says, this car really hates to be pushed. But then again HP does have huge impact on winning comparison.

But still, I think both GS and M45 has made a point (espeically the M45). I have said earlier, M45 has pulled a BMW on BMW. Lexus has outdone the W211 easily. Both just aimed differently.

However, I still don't understand how the RL beats GS. RL is not more fun to drive than the GS, nor its chassis performed better than GS.

This test is just setup too badly. A better comparison would have been V8 vs V8.

545i with sports pkg, would have been around $60k (about 3 to 4k higher than GS430). A E500 would also be there at $60k. That it not much difference between M45 and GS430.

You can still penalize the german cars for lack of amenities. But at least everyone would be on the same footing.

doug_999

Actually I read that Lexus wants to follow the Germans who often introduce new a car and then new motors a year or two down the road. GS sales are hot now because there is so much pent-up demand - and in two years when the GS460 comes out, they will ignite their sales again. If it all came at once, in two years, there would be nothing dramatic/new to boost sales.

But as a person whose lease comes up next March, I can tell you, they probably lost my business - unless that sweet IS350 comes with a stick

Rockville

This car grows on me every day and it makes it fun to go to work. The average person is not a race car driver which includes a lot of us on this forum. As Jack Nicholson said We just can't handle the truth. There is a formula here on the forum, it has to at least offer a manual (Incendiary) and it has to be a V8 with gobs of twist. It has to look like a piece of art. It should offer all wheel drive and have a sport package (which would really be a BMW plagiarism). When you guys find this ideal car let us know...

When the Gen 2 came out we were taken to Summit Point Raceway in West Virginia. We spent the day learning about different makes and then got to drive them around a test track. After about 18 hotlaps or so they asked if anyone wanted to go out with a professional driver. Everyone donned helmets and we all suddenly realized how inadequate we really were. We thought we were pushing these cars to the limit because we had nudged a few cones. The skid pad test was my favorite. It had water cascading across the pad to simulate ice. The driver turned off the skid control and started around the circular pad and whoops we were headed for the grass. He turned the VSC switch on and now we just went round and round like magic. The VDIM that the magazine hacks don't understand and don't trust reminds me of that test. I guess they don't want to relinquish any control to a computer. When the AWD Porsche came out one of the autowriters was able to get within a second of the professional driver's time on the track. This was due to the electronic stabilization that was correcting for the writer. Another benefit is that it can handle emergencies with a calm confidence instead of over correcting and losing control. I gotta ask you Doug, don't you have a little difficulty driving in the snow with your GS430? Every rear wheel drive with that much torque and sport tires will be a challenge in the snow and make most GS430 owners just park it. You won't believe the new GS430 in the snow. Read the review that the Canadian did on a closed course. It did better than the AWD GS300! The new brakes can really clamp and one writer said they almost gave him a nosebleed. When I drove it in the snow I immediately compared it to the GS300 AWD and a GX470. The GS430's VDIM didn't get flustered at all. It was by far the best car I have ever driven in the snow and it had 18" all season sport radials! That's pretty impressive. Anybody want to try to follow me in the snow with their mean old M45 with its 19's? That would be fun.....

Do you have a bluetooth phone Doug? Well bluetooth is standard and when a call comes in you just push the button on the steering wheel and start talking. The navigation system will dial any of its 10,000,000 commercial listings with one touch. The new Mark Levinson Audio/Video system is the best yet but you know that already if you tested it. It's not the same screens either but it takes a while to demonstrate the differences and get used to the Voice Command etc. You liked the rear view camera didn't you? It's much better now.

If you need more displacement and you have a Lexus lease that terminates in March then just extend it until the GS460 arrives in the fall of '06. Drive the 450h in the meantime. The new Generation GS430 handles flat in the turns and doesn't bounce in transitions like the old one did. It has 18's from the factory and an adjustable suspension standard. Much better.

Basically the car is very modern and maybe it is foreign to purists out there and it doesn't really need AWD with the VDIM on board to keep you out of the trees. It looks like a piece of art. Remember the traction control lag? Gone. The steering is Electric and quick. Helps you park too. Six speeds are so much better and the new transmission is the next best thing to a stick. I grew up on sticks but I also remember those heavy muscle car clutches that really gave you a workout stoplight to stoplight. Ahh the smell of pressure plates in the Summer night air.......Now that was visceral but they didn't handle like the new GS does, did they? We always seemed to be working on them too. The GS just says push my button if you dare.... Much better.

I'm sure the new IS350 will be fun to drive with its short wheelbase but it is always hard to go down in torque. It should have about 270 lb ft and over 300 HP. That's good balance especially if the torque curve is similar to the GS300's peak at 3600 RPM's. It will have the sporty paddle shifts. Again much better.

It's all good....

Incendiary

It's not to say that I'm a race car driver or that I ever plan to be. I do plan to track my car, or at least run autox, but even when I'm on the street I want my ride to be engaging. These latest cars just don't do it for me. Technological advancements are great, and you're right that most people are not looking for what I may be looking for. I don't expect that the market completely and solely cater to my whims. I don't have a cluster B personality disorder. I do, however, have my own personal set of criteria and my own personal sense of what gets my rocks off when it comes to cars. As electronic this and computerized that are slowly but surely advancing into each new model car, I'm finding my car wants marginalized to used car lots. New cars, and the "next phenomenon from Lexus," are great and handle well, but I've got a limp **** when I drive them. That's a problem, because I'm a little too young to be taking sildenafil.

BTW, no AWD for me, thanks.

Rockville

Boy I thought that I really loved cars but I must be a lightweight. Just don't forget that Lexus is a luxury car and it offers performance blended with reliability. I'm pretty sure the LFA would get your jollies but that is another story and an exotic. Where do you autocross nowdays? That is pure fun. Makes me want to go out and get a MIni Cooper S. Anyway Peace and I hope you find the Hot Rod of your dreams....

LiquidBlue

Exactly.. the technology is there.. but they're just holding on to it for a little while. My guess is a year or two after the GS450H comes out, a V8 version will emerge.. the GS560H? Perhaps..

Incendiary

Rockville, you sound like a very devoted and well-informed salesman. That you hang on CL speaks volumes about your love for cars. I'm sure you could sell me the shirt off my own back, but when it comes to the current generation of cars, all hope is lost.

Rockville

In a way Toyota/Lexus has released the Hybrid technology into the market already. The Ford Escape which most think is a Ford advancement is really Prius technology under license. Since Ford manufactures it they can say they don't use anybody else's parts but that's just a technicality. Nissan also is licensing it and so is Suburu. Porsche jumped on the bandwagon recently and is actually going to use the more advanced 400h technology in the Cayenne. Honda is the only other player and they have their own system. While the German Super Lux Sedans were rarified air with their V12's with no Japanese counterparts. Lexus has decided to join the party and compete but has the Hybrid technology so they could easily use a fuel efficient V8 Hybrid in the long wheelbase Super Lux Sedan. The LFA is the last straw. It shows that Lexus can bring a world class exotic to market if it feels like it. Lexus is growing up and showing its originality with these new technologies and designs. They are hardly holding back......

The M45 has its day in the sun and lets all applaud the effort. The RL just doesn't belong in this grouping but faired well anyway to their credit. The GS430 stirred the pot. The E350 is a big improvement over the E320 but doesn't compete well against the V8's. The A6 is hurting even after a redesign, that is not good. The BMW 530i is at the end of cycle and overmatched by the bigger V8's and still got some respect. This Apples and Oranges comparison is just a tribute to Japanese value. The Luxury buyer who actually purchases these cars still buys mostly BMW's and E Class Mercedes. We are seeing many of the E's traded in right now. Not as many BMW's. I'm not sure that this buyer even reads Car and Driver. He or She just talks to their friends to find out what to buy. If they have a Lexus in the family then they may stop in to take a look. BMW has a very high loyalty and Mercedes tarnished reputation still gets worldwide prestige. These factors are probably missing in the magazine comparisons. This buyer typically doesn't push the envelope anyway......It's more of a fashion statement.