Car and Driver $55K sedan comparo: 1) M45, 2) RL, 3) GS430, 4) E350, 5) A6, 6) 530i
03-25-05, 01:09 PM
#91
MultiTasking Mom
Originally Posted by highmiles
I'll be the first to admit that I did not test drive every car in this market when I bought my 06 GS430. My loyalty to Lexus was just too great for me to imagine owning anything else. I did however sit in the M45 and Acura at car shows. I was impressed with the M45 on the outside but could never spend that kind of money on a car that looks as goofy IMO on the inside as the M45. The Acura just felt like a Honda on HGH (IMO) and I definately couldn't see spending that kind of money on a Honda.
Saw the interior of the M and was thinking, oookkk, right.... just too weird for my taste. And I hate the RL's "beak" front!
03-25-05, 01:21 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by Incendiary
Nah, not interested in rankings by these mags, really. Fun to read, but don't affect what I'd want or get. I tend to agree with many of them, but then there are many I also tend to disagree with. In terms of this ranking, I can't say I entirely agree with each position they placed (and I found it curious that a low they mentioned was a "firm suspension" with the sports package option... 
), but I think it's funny when people cry about rankings that don't matter. Case in point: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=35142. Check the thread out, it's also pretty humorous.
Anyway, whatever. Carry on.
), but I think it's funny when people cry about rankings that don't matter. Case in point: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=35142. Check the thread out, it's also pretty humorous.Anyway, whatever. Carry on.
Originally Posted by ARRII
With all due respect. If you really want to talk about the origin of true sport sedans you have to give credit to the Nissan Maxima (1991 to date) who really paved the way for the GS. The M, I believe is Infiniti's spin-off of the Maxima concept. I'm huge Lexus fan like everyone here, but lets give credit where credit is due.
The M uses the name from the old M30, which was another Infiniti car discontinued. No relation.
03-25-05, 01:52 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by highmiles
I think that C&D got the exact results they were looking for. Why do you suppose they placed the artifical $55K limit? Could this be because it would exclude a fully loaded GS 430 ($62K) and more qualified offerings from MB and BMW?
03-25-05, 01:56 PM
#94
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I would have to agree that the M45 Sport is better than the Lexus GS430. I mean look at the M45 Sport, that vehicle is made to perform first and luxury second. If the Lexus GS430 had an upgraded V8 (not the same one since 2001), then maybe things will be different.
Also the M35/M45 brochure is just so much more performance promoting than the GS brochure that promotes more luxury.
I do have to say that the GS should have come in 2nd and not the RL.
Also the M35/M45 brochure is just so much more performance promoting than the GS brochure that promotes more luxury.
I do have to say that the GS should have come in 2nd and not the RL.
03-25-05, 01:58 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by highmiles
I think that C&D got the exact results they were looking for. Why do you suppose they placed the artifical $55K limit? Could this be because it would exclude a fully loaded GS 430 ($62K) and more qualified offerings from MB and BMW?
It is clear to me that the only two competitive cars that are fully loaded for under $55K are the M45 and Acura. All of the other major players in this segment the GS, BMW and MB have to submit cars without all options in the case of the GS or smaller engines in the case of the BMW and MB.
Granted the M45 deserves it's just rewards and from everything I have read is more of a "driver's" car than the GS and no surprise it would beat the GS. However, to me the $55K limit was designed to prop up the Acura to make it appear to be a real player in this market. I think the real test should be between stock V8's in this segment regardless of price (excluding the AMG and M5). But that would have left Acura out in the cold. Something that C&D couldn't do.
I'll be the first to admit that I did not test drive every car in this market when I bought my 06 GS430. My loyalty to Lexus was just too great for me to imagine owning anything else. I did however sit in the M45 and Acura at car shows. I was impressed with the M45 on the outside but could never spend that kind of money on a car that looks as goofy IMO on the inside as the M45. The Acura just felt like a Honda on HGH (IMO) and I definately couldn't see spending that kind of money on a Honda.
As we all know this segment of the car market has heated up this year like no other time in history. It wasn't long ago that the only choices were BMW and MB for a mid range sports sedan (no slam against the GS as I own a 98 GS400). Now every car maker is offering something to address this high dollar high profit market.
I guess my point is that competition in this market will mean that we will see more defacto head-to-head articles that will not make sense to many of us on CL. With this much money at stake there are adgendas that outweigh the need for objectivity. The C&D article is a perfect case in point.
06 GS430
Flint
Ash
Loaded
98 GS400
Silver
318,000 Miles
(for sale and won't be mine for long)
Previous Lexus
92 ES300
185K miles
(traded in on my 98GS)
It is clear to me that the only two competitive cars that are fully loaded for under $55K are the M45 and Acura. All of the other major players in this segment the GS, BMW and MB have to submit cars without all options in the case of the GS or smaller engines in the case of the BMW and MB.
Granted the M45 deserves it's just rewards and from everything I have read is more of a "driver's" car than the GS and no surprise it would beat the GS. However, to me the $55K limit was designed to prop up the Acura to make it appear to be a real player in this market. I think the real test should be between stock V8's in this segment regardless of price (excluding the AMG and M5). But that would have left Acura out in the cold. Something that C&D couldn't do.
I'll be the first to admit that I did not test drive every car in this market when I bought my 06 GS430. My loyalty to Lexus was just too great for me to imagine owning anything else. I did however sit in the M45 and Acura at car shows. I was impressed with the M45 on the outside but could never spend that kind of money on a car that looks as goofy IMO on the inside as the M45. The Acura just felt like a Honda on HGH (IMO) and I definately couldn't see spending that kind of money on a Honda.
As we all know this segment of the car market has heated up this year like no other time in history. It wasn't long ago that the only choices were BMW and MB for a mid range sports sedan (no slam against the GS as I own a 98 GS400). Now every car maker is offering something to address this high dollar high profit market.
I guess my point is that competition in this market will mean that we will see more defacto head-to-head articles that will not make sense to many of us on CL. With this much money at stake there are adgendas that outweigh the need for objectivity. The C&D article is a perfect case in point.
06 GS430
Flint
Ash
Loaded
98 GS400
Silver
318,000 Miles
(for sale and won't be mine for long)
Previous Lexus
92 ES300
185K miles
(traded in on my 98GS)
Their conclusion is something most people with brains knows, the Germans cannot beat the Japanese price point.
I would like to see a loaded comparo. Load the Germans up, to their 70k+ prices vs the loaded Japanese GS/M/RL. Yes, the options make the price higher but is it worth it?
For instance, I love the E panaramic roof. That is actually a strong reason for buying, IMO. No one else in class offers it and its quite cool. Yes it drives the price up but to me, it would be worth it.
03-25-05, 02:39 PM
#96
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Yes I also agree they should have done V-8 Comparo and V-6 Comparo. I feel GS430 should have been 2nd instead of 3rd . The second generation GS400 scored second in V-8 comparison in 99 against BMW 540I, Audi A6 4.2, E430 Etc. C&D writters are biased towards Accord/Acura vehicles. 
03-25-05, 02:51 PM
#97
Originally Posted by AmethySC
I think he meant C/D always heavily biased towards performance/handling, which is true.They can acknowledge the strengths of the other cars in their comparisons, but when they rank at the end, they base it on performance.
As for the bimmer placing 6th, it's not surprising(it's ugly too
), it's only the I6 530i, I think they should have tested the 545i & E500 in this comparison & adjust for price in their rankings instead.
As for the bimmer placing 6th, it's not surprising(it's ugly too
), it's only the I6 530i, I think they should have tested the 545i & E500 in this comparison & adjust for price in their rankings instead.
03-25-05, 02:57 PM
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
BTW everyone, seems our threads here are more popular than other forums. They pick and choose what we say and twist it into we are bashing and link the threads to view. Here, we do not promote or condone cross posting in forums.
They sadly don't have the knowledge nor resources to have just incredible threads, so they would rather look at our threads and bash us.
They sadly don't have the knowledge nor resources to have just incredible threads, so they would rather look at our threads and bash us.
03-25-05, 03:00 PM
#99
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
They sadly don't have the knowledge nor resources to have just incredible threads, so they would rather look at our threads and bash us.
03-25-05, 03:06 PM
#100
Originally Posted by IsraelRX
The Lexus did very well:
9 in handling like the less nose heavy 530i
5.7 sec 0-60 second best (Faster than the A8 and STS) to anyone who ever claimed Toyota's horses are not the same
9 in handling like the less nose heavy 530i
5.7 sec 0-60 second best (Faster than the A8 and STS) to anyone who ever claimed Toyota's horses are not the same
You are talking about 20% more weight. I don't think you guys should be proud to out run a car that weighs 700 lb more.
I will post later when I get my C&D.
STS is not german. I would be suprised to see how fast the 530i did 0-60 and compare that to GS300.
03-25-05, 03:07 PM
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by flipside909
And use Google as their only basis for excuses.
Childish. We have given the RL its due for the possibly the best Acura sedan ever and considering its limits (V-6 only, FWD biased, previous RL was a failure, Accord based), it is a very solid car in this segment. They need to check their own forums. There is so much childish crap posted there with baseless, factless bashing, its ridiculous.
03-25-05, 03:09 PM
#102
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by chiawei
Well, they should also have waited for the 2006 530i. Comparing a 300HP V8 to 225 HP 5 year old L6 is not really a fair comparison.
03-25-05, 03:21 PM
#103
Originally Posted by static808
As mentioned by everybody, this comparo was based on MSRP ($55K) and not engine type.
Regardless of the V8's from one company and V6's from another, The comparo showed a few things.
1. German cars are no longer the top "dogs".
2. Infiniti and Lexus V8's luxury sedans are fast, nimble and can easily hold their own against their German counterparts (545i, E500). Sorry Audi, you don't count in this one.
3. If Acura can hold its own in this comparo (even if C/D might be Honda/Acura biased), Acura's RL has to be the best AWD Midsize Luxury Sedan.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Regardless of the V8's from one company and V6's from another, The comparo showed a few things.
1. German cars are no longer the top "dogs".
2. Infiniti and Lexus V8's luxury sedans are fast, nimble and can easily hold their own against their German counterparts (545i, E500). Sorry Audi, you don't count in this one.
3. If Acura can hold its own in this comparo (even if C/D might be Honda/Acura biased), Acura's RL has to be the best AWD Midsize Luxury Sedan.
Nothing more, nothing less.
You are comparing a 225HP L6 to a 300 HP V8. I don't think the new 530i would have faired so badly. But we can all be certain that GS430 despite being lighter than last model and gains a 6 speed automatic did not perform that much better in 0-60. Yes, it finally matched the claim Lexus made back in 1998 of a 5.7 second in 0-60.
I still don't understand how 8 model years later with better power to weight ratio and closer gear ratio, it still remained a 5.7 in 0-60. This just equaled a old E39 540iA 0-60 with 300LB more weight and significantly less than 545iA did. I know 545i was 25 more HP but is also weighs slightly more than GS. You really still do have question that 25HP difference would produce a 0.4 second difference in 0-60 (espeically we are now talking at sub 6 second).
BTW, I am happy that GS did well. I still don't understand why RL would be 2nd.
C&D is very honda/acura biased. They twisted their story and feature around to make a point.
The best example is their Odyssey over Sienna pick in the 10 best. Odyssey is slower, has worse slalom, less interior room, cheaper interior, bad interior design, missing a lot of key feature that sienna has. Not to mention better warranty too. It's like everything honda touches is gold to them. Even though it is not. They even claimed that feature on the sienna does not exist to make a point. In addition, flat out lied about Sienna trim grade to make Odyssey looks nice.
That I have problem with. I did test drive the RL. To say it performed up to par with the V8 is a JOKE. Moreover, I don't particular like RL's ergonomic eithers, especially is no touch screen navi and bad placement of screen.
03-25-05, 03:24 PM
#104
Originally Posted by flipside909
That's just too bad isn't it?
But it did confirm that GS430 is slower than 330i with a manual in 0-60. So my comments on the new 530i will probably stand. Given a manual with 530i, it will run neck to neck with GS430 automatic.
I had hoped that with only 3700LB and 6 speed automatic the GS430 should be around 5.5 or so. 5.7 is just barebly better than a heavier 5 speed GS430.
03-25-05, 09:31 PM
#105
Just got back from driving the M45 and RL, almost back to back (dealerships were accross the street from each other )
There is one thing, and only one thing that stands out about the M45. That's the power. Style looks like the refreshened Altima too much and the interior did not do much for me. But the power was great, even for a car that is not even broken in yet. Easily the fastest 4 door I've driven (that includes RL, 98 GS4, 06 GS, 300c, Magnuim HEMI, 540i, E500, all new).
RL has the technology of the 06 GS matched, except for the rear view camera. The NAV on the RL (haven't really fooled with the 06 GS NAV) is awesome. The car drives really nice as well. However, it is made by Honda, which means it's low end torque is rather weak compared to the competition. But it exceeded my expectations. I wouldn't pay 50k for it, though. If this car was 5k less, it would steal a bunch of sales from the competition, no doubt about that. Also didn't like it how every car is the same, which is fully loaded. Heck, I would get it if it were $45k instead of $50k.
As for power, I'd wait for the GS460
)There is one thing, and only one thing that stands out about the M45. That's the power. Style looks like the refreshened Altima too much and the interior did not do much for me. But the power was great, even for a car that is not even broken in yet. Easily the fastest 4 door I've driven (that includes RL, 98 GS4, 06 GS, 300c, Magnuim HEMI, 540i, E500, all new).
RL has the technology of the 06 GS matched, except for the rear view camera. The NAV on the RL (haven't really fooled with the 06 GS NAV) is awesome. The car drives really nice as well. However, it is made by Honda, which means it's low end torque is rather weak compared to the competition. But it exceeded my expectations. I wouldn't pay 50k for it, though. If this car was 5k less, it would steal a bunch of sales from the competition, no doubt about that. Also didn't like it how every car is the same, which is fully loaded. Heck, I would get it if it were $45k instead of $50k.
As for power, I'd wait for the GS460