From USA Today : Lexus GS falls short of Infiniti M (merged threads)
03-25-05, 04:33 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by jrock65
I hope that when Toyota borrows a page from Nissan's book and starts using the 3.5 GR engine in virtually all of their V6 vehicles, it will translate into better pricing. The IS will be based off a shortened version of the GS platform as well, so hopefully more platform sharing can translate into more muted price increases as well.
03-25-05, 04:41 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by flipside909
I don' t think you quite understand the big picture. Toyota has been doing cross platform engine/chassis for many years. If Toyota were to take a page out of Nissan's book, quite frankly, they would have had to resort to a french government owned car company to bail them out of a whole, use cheaper quality parts to save money and pump more horsepower into one motor used in literally 75% of their vehicle line up. Toyota is smarter than that, and it proves why Nissan is no where near what Toyota has done in the last 20 years of exponential growth and power. Simple.
If you read my post, I was referring to how Toyota plans to use the 3.5 GR in the IS350, GS350, GS450h, ES350, RX350, Sienna, Camry, Solara, Highlander and Avalon. And hoping that this will lead to cost savings that will be eventually passed on to the consumer.
I really don't care about this Toyota is smarter, Toyota is at the top, Toyota is Japanese or whatever owned.
Last edited by jrock65; 03-25-05 at 04:46 PM.
03-25-05, 04:41 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by flipside909
I don' t think you quite understand the big picture. Toyota has been doing cross platform engine/chassis for many years. If Toyota were to take a page out of Nissan's book, quite frankly, they would have had to resort to a french government owned car company to bail them out of a whole, use cheaper quality parts to save money and pump more horsepower into one motor used in literally 75% of their vehicle line up. Toyota is smarter than that, and it proves why Nissan is no where near what Toyota has done in the last 20 years of exponential growth and power. Simple.
I agree. Stupid Nissan. I can't believe they went from being in the red to posting one of the biggest turn arounds in history.
03-25-05, 04:42 PM
#49
I laud Toyota's efficiency drives, which can be expected to increase under its new CEO (aka fewer door handle styles, etc.), but I think sharing engines, despite the quality of the chosen engine in mind, is too drastic a measure to implement across the board at Lexus and to a lesser extent at Toyota.
I would prefer that Lexus work on designing and marketing a diverse array of products, including engine choices.
BTW, Nissan is perhaps the largest Japanese car manufacturer to have a significant foreign ownership stake...Renault took 37% in 1999, then increased it to 45% in 2002...it's thanks to ex-Renault executive 'Le Cost Cutter' Carlos Gosen that Nissan could turn it around.
And Renault itself is 45% owned by the French govt.
I would prefer that Lexus work on designing and marketing a diverse array of products, including engine choices.
BTW, Nissan is perhaps the largest Japanese car manufacturer to have a significant foreign ownership stake...Renault took 37% in 1999, then increased it to 45% in 2002...it's thanks to ex-Renault executive 'Le Cost Cutter' Carlos Gosen that Nissan could turn it around.
And Renault itself is 45% owned by the French govt.
Last edited by encore888; 03-25-05 at 04:46 PM.
03-25-05, 04:51 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by jrock65
I understand the picture well, thanks. I wasn't referring to all that stuff you're referring to. I've also owned a couple Lexuses in the past, and trust me, Toyota shared a LOT of Toyota parts with Lexus. It's much better now though.
I really don't care about this Toyota is smarter, Toyota is at the top, Toyota is Japanese or whatever owned.
I really don't care about this Toyota is smarter, Toyota is at the top, Toyota is Japanese or whatever owned.
03-25-05, 04:57 PM
#51
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Lexus has a legacy. Infinit has a few good products. The only troubling thing here for me is the fact that Lexus has struggled in the past with this segment. They understand luxury. But they seem to struggle with "performance-luxury."
03-25-05, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Whoa there newbie. The M is not superior. The GS lost its first comparison to the M, not "another"(stick to facts). The GS won the Edmunds comparo. We'll call the cars equal to be nice. 
Look at the facts. The GS is a brand new all new platform with an all-new V-6 and all new tranny. The M has shared V-6, borrowed platform, old tranny. Those are facts.
Look at the facts. The GS is a brand new all new platform with an all-new V-6 and all new tranny. The M has shared V-6, borrowed platform, old tranny. Those are facts.
yeah, with the same old 240 horsepower
just because the GS V-6 is new, doesn't make it 'better" than the well established VQ..
03-25-05, 05:21 PM
#53
I must say after coming from the autoshow just based on what I saw I personally think the M , GS, and RL are all are very nice compared with the E-Class and 5-Series but I personally would take the GS it just sparks my emotions, the M looks very plain especially in the non-sport model, and the RL doesn't seem any better than the TL.
03-25-05, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by L-Finesser
Lexus has a legacy. Infinit has a few good products. The only troubling thing here for me is the fact that Lexus has struggled in the past with this segment. They understand luxury. But they seem to struggle with "performance-luxury."
03-25-05, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
Lexus also seems to have trouble selling sedans in general in comparison to MB and BMW.. Let's hope they can pick up some sales with this new GS effort..
I agree. I hope that all 3 japanese luxury car companies rock the establishment with their superior cars.
03-25-05, 05:30 PM
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i feel like i have to throw my 2 cents in here..
1) i dont find the comparisons that biased... these cars are built for different types of drivers, but i think the overall driving feel of the M will be so much better than the GS. the M will probably be closer to the 5 series... the M will likely be more responsive, but the GS will ride smoother.. i think this is cool depending on what kind of driver u are... i personally like to feel the accelleration, not go " whoa im going 100? feels like im going 60"
2) it is true that infiniti is not as established as lexus... but all of their new products since the G35's release have been successful. and infiniti has had a good track record in terms of reliability they have been neck and neck with lexus. the thing that stopped infiniti from being successful was the design of their cars. most people didnt find them appealing, the interiors werent as great as counterparts either. i think the infiniti M will be a great success, further building upon infiniti's rise to the top. infiniti is beginning to build a name... all of their new cars seem to be well recieved by the public. their design cues are finally on track. in a few years infiniti will be mentioned in the same breath as lexus just like mercedes and BMW are mentioned together.
3) why are you complaining that nissan's VQ35 is in a lot of their products? that engine is said to be one of the greatest V6's ever made.
i think everyone is too caught up in the history of infiniti and lexus... thats fine, you can base your decision on the brand name... but at the end of the day, the qualtiy of the car speaks more than the brand name. lexus has better history, but infiniti is definitely coming up... the reliability has always been there, now they are making attractive cars and (heres where the lexus' usually lack) cars that are fun to drive. there seems to be more road feel in the infiniti's. this is intentional on both sides. lexus wants to make cars that float like a cloud... infiniti wants to be the japanese BMW. BTW, BMW interiors are also lacking in my opinion. but they still sell like hotcakes...IMO, the infiniti interior is better than the BMW one...
1) i dont find the comparisons that biased... these cars are built for different types of drivers, but i think the overall driving feel of the M will be so much better than the GS. the M will probably be closer to the 5 series... the M will likely be more responsive, but the GS will ride smoother.. i think this is cool depending on what kind of driver u are... i personally like to feel the accelleration, not go " whoa im going 100? feels like im going 60"
2) it is true that infiniti is not as established as lexus... but all of their new products since the G35's release have been successful. and infiniti has had a good track record in terms of reliability they have been neck and neck with lexus. the thing that stopped infiniti from being successful was the design of their cars. most people didnt find them appealing, the interiors werent as great as counterparts either. i think the infiniti M will be a great success, further building upon infiniti's rise to the top. infiniti is beginning to build a name... all of their new cars seem to be well recieved by the public. their design cues are finally on track. in a few years infiniti will be mentioned in the same breath as lexus just like mercedes and BMW are mentioned together.
3) why are you complaining that nissan's VQ35 is in a lot of their products? that engine is said to be one of the greatest V6's ever made.
i think everyone is too caught up in the history of infiniti and lexus... thats fine, you can base your decision on the brand name... but at the end of the day, the qualtiy of the car speaks more than the brand name. lexus has better history, but infiniti is definitely coming up... the reliability has always been there, now they are making attractive cars and (heres where the lexus' usually lack) cars that are fun to drive. there seems to be more road feel in the infiniti's. this is intentional on both sides. lexus wants to make cars that float like a cloud... infiniti wants to be the japanese BMW. BTW, BMW interiors are also lacking in my opinion. but they still sell like hotcakes...IMO, the infiniti interior is better than the BMW one...
03-25-05, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dynasty SC
i feel like i have to throw my 2 cents in here..
1) i dont find the comparisons that biased... these cars are built for different types of drivers, but i think the overall driving feel of the M will be so much better than the GS. the M will probably be closer to the 5 series... the M will likely be more responsive, but the GS will ride smoother.. i think this is cool depending on what kind of driver u are... i personally like to feel the accelleration, not go " whoa im going 100? feels like im going 60"
2) it is true that infiniti is not as established as lexus... but all of their new products since the G35's release have been successful. and infiniti has had a good track record in terms of reliability they have been neck and neck with lexus. the thing that stopped infiniti from being successful was the design of their cars. most people didnt find them appealing, the interiors werent as great as counterparts either. i think the infiniti M will be a great success, further building upon infiniti's rise to the top. infiniti is beginning to build a name... all of their new cars seem to be well recieved by the public. their design cues are finally on track. in a few years infiniti will be mentioned in the same breath as lexus just like mercedes and BMW are mentioned together.
3) why are you complaining that nissan's VQ35 is in a lot of their products? that engine is said to be one of the greatest V6's ever made.
i think everyone is too caught up in the history of infiniti and lexus... thats fine, you can base your decision on the brand name... but at the end of the day, the qualtiy of the car speaks more than the brand name. lexus has better history, but infiniti is definitely coming up... the reliability has always been there, now they are making attractive cars and (heres where the lexus' usually lack) cars that are fun to drive. there seems to be more road feel in the infiniti's. this is intentional on both sides. lexus wants to make cars that float like a cloud... infiniti wants to be the japanese BMW. BTW, BMW interiors are also lacking in my opinion. but they still sell like hotcakes...IMO, the infiniti interior is better than the BMW one...
1) i dont find the comparisons that biased... these cars are built for different types of drivers, but i think the overall driving feel of the M will be so much better than the GS. the M will probably be closer to the 5 series... the M will likely be more responsive, but the GS will ride smoother.. i think this is cool depending on what kind of driver u are... i personally like to feel the accelleration, not go " whoa im going 100? feels like im going 60"
2) it is true that infiniti is not as established as lexus... but all of their new products since the G35's release have been successful. and infiniti has had a good track record in terms of reliability they have been neck and neck with lexus. the thing that stopped infiniti from being successful was the design of their cars. most people didnt find them appealing, the interiors werent as great as counterparts either. i think the infiniti M will be a great success, further building upon infiniti's rise to the top. infiniti is beginning to build a name... all of their new cars seem to be well recieved by the public. their design cues are finally on track. in a few years infiniti will be mentioned in the same breath as lexus just like mercedes and BMW are mentioned together.
3) why are you complaining that nissan's VQ35 is in a lot of their products? that engine is said to be one of the greatest V6's ever made.
i think everyone is too caught up in the history of infiniti and lexus... thats fine, you can base your decision on the brand name... but at the end of the day, the qualtiy of the car speaks more than the brand name. lexus has better history, but infiniti is definitely coming up... the reliability has always been there, now they are making attractive cars and (heres where the lexus' usually lack) cars that are fun to drive. there seems to be more road feel in the infiniti's. this is intentional on both sides. lexus wants to make cars that float like a cloud... infiniti wants to be the japanese BMW. BTW, BMW interiors are also lacking in my opinion. but they still sell like hotcakes...IMO, the infiniti interior is better than the BMW one...
03-25-05, 05:46 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
yeah, with the same old 240 horsepower
just because the GS V-6 is new, doesn't make it 'better" than the well established VQ..
just because the GS V-6 is new, doesn't make it 'better" than the well established VQ..
But you sound like some kid who thinks horsepower is everything. So please join www.mustangforums.com if that is going to be the jest of your arguements here.
You forgot that the GS has an additional gear. The M35 uses a 5 speed. The 1998-2005 GS used a 5 speed. Hell the 96-97 1GS used a 5 speed. Its old news. Heck Benz has a 7 speed.
To some, the most hp and an old tranny is fine. To many, less power, a new tranny, and 20% gas mileage is better. To some, they don't care if their 40-50k M35 shares its engine with every Nissan product known to man. To some, they would rather less power for an engine that is not as shared.
Part of luxury is exclusivity.
03-25-05, 05:49 PM
#59
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I cannot honestly say that I am free of bias, but I really like it when different companies produce quality products. American, German, French, Japanese, Korean... I don't care. Because I am American, I'd love to see American kick ***, but GM and Ford are so far behind.
One thing is I really hope that Honda get their act together and start offering more engines, trim lines, and RWD. Hondas in general have a good combo of sport and luxury, and their interiors are superb. It just doesn't seem that they company is interested in equipping its sedans with a V8 and more importantly RWD, which is unfortunate.
One thing is I really hope that Honda get their act together and start offering more engines, trim lines, and RWD. Hondas in general have a good combo of sport and luxury, and their interiors are superb. It just doesn't seem that they company is interested in equipping its sedans with a V8 and more importantly RWD, which is unfortunate.
03-25-05, 05:50 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
Lexus also seems to have trouble selling sedans in general in comparison to MB and BMW.. Let's hope they can pick up some sales with this new GS effort..
Remember the I35, yeah, it was supposed to be a sports sedan, and its discontinued.
Remember the J30, yeah, it was suppposed to be a sports sedan, and its discontinued.
Kudos to Infintii finally getting some of it together and using the FM platform to create some very sporting sedans and even a sporty SUV.
The IS wasn't the sales success, but was the first Japanese RWD sedan to tackle the 3. The GS is cleary a success.