spwolf

i really dont get it (all the talk)... In fact, I think most people buying GS300 (which are people 50's) would rather care about mpg than 0.3 sec faster 0-60 times... My dad could care less if his GS460 goes 0.2 sec faster to 60 than GS430... But the difference in 2nd gen GS and 3rd gen GS is huge, in every single aspect of the car. I would have never bought GS430 2 yrs ago, but new one is niiiice.

p.s. MT has no clue what they are talking about... GS460 should have >340-350, with GS350 having around 300. That article was probably written when they found out Avalon will have 280hp and then being good journalists, and doing 0 research, they thought it will be the same engine.

Maybe these good ol journalists should come to the forums and ask for advice before writing articles? That way, they would not embaress themselves

spwolf

p.s. Revolution? GS300>GS300 - 1 sec faster, better mpg.

chuckb

all I'm going to say is it would be very disapointing if the GS460 only had 315hp.

Gojirra99

Haha, it's too early to even speculate the hp of the GS460. Remember not too long ago, some auto journalist reported the IS350 will have 245 hp ? We may get some idea when the GS460 is released in Japan, but the version they bring here may be tuned differently.

looknow12

It's all well and good to have these discussions until we actually believe that we know more about what the right decision for Lexus should be than Lexus. I don't say this to indicate we are less intelligent than the personnel at Lexus, only that are beliefs and assumptions are based on limited information.

Product development is a extremely complex process based on tons of factors. As civilians we have none of this data to make a better decision. I can only guess at some of the factors, so below I'll make an attempt.

• Comprehensive Sales Data including demographics (regional, age, type of buyer, etc)
• Technology both past, present(available) and on the horizon
• EPA laws for today, and in the future
• Entire model suite data and its long term strategies.
• Go to market strategy including costs per vehicle and the right target price, and the reasonable profit possible.

If you think about these factors and estimate how much data it must comprise, there is no way we can all sit back and say Lexus made a mistake without first knowing some or all of this information. Not only does Lexus have to make decisions for the 06 GS, but must have a strategy for all its vehicles in 06 and at least 5 years beyond. Even at Lexus they may have decided this wasn't a great solution, but it was better than others.

As I said, it is good for discussion, but the minute we wear that superior complex cap, that's when there's a problem.

spwolf

heh yea... funny isnt it? And then we read the same journalist's review of GS as if it is an bible

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

The new "GR" engines are dual VVT-i, on the valves and the exhaust, correct? Does the 4.3L V8 have VVT-i just on the valves or is it also on the exhaust? If it's not dual on the V-8, is it possible to do so?

If it is, I bet that's where the power increase will come from when the refresh arrives.

-Michael-

flipside909

VVT-i on intake side only for the regular VVT-i engines.

TRDFantasy

Yes, the 4.3L V8 is VVT-i only on the intake side. Rumours are saying the 4.6L V8 will be a major jump, more than the 4 to 4.3 jump a few years back. The 4.6L could be a new engine family, who knows. A lot of sources though are saying the 4.6L will have Direct Injection and Dual VVT-i. Guesses are power could be anywhere between 350 - 370HP, and even more Torque.

chuckb

IF the 4.6 has the same hp per liter ratio as a GS400(75 hp per liter), then it would have 345 HP.
And by that same ratio, the 4.3 should have 322hp

LexFather

Even though many of us would like some crazy fast GS, its not the Lexus way, not they're philosophy. In all honesty, after having a GS 400 and too all GS 400/430 owners here, I think the next logical step, if you truly wanted more power, is th E39 M5. 400hp and you get the manual. Otherwise, a M45 or a 545 manual,only provide a marginal improvment, that if you didn't see results in magazines, you probably couldn't tell the difference.

The Lexus philosophy is shown in "h". They have already listed sub 5 second times. "H" is the way to go. Imagine, if you can figure out how to tune more voltage out the battery. You can then make your car faster! Lexus is already developing better batteries, with a complete switch to Litium Ion by 2009 with Panasonics help. By then, you will get more power and more fuel efficiency and less weight.

The days of adding intakes and exhausts expecting gains are pretty much done for luxury car buyers. You have to figure out the Engine Management, of you might lose power..

Now for those just interested in gas engines and the 460, here is the info I have
1. BMW just released the updated 750, a new 5.0 V-8 good for 360hp. This is a jump from the 525hp now. This same engine WILL make its way into the 545, thus 550.
2. Audi already has a 340 4.2 liter V-8. The S4 has this engine as well. It's performance has never led up to expectations of the HP figure.
3. Infiniti had the 340hp 4.5 liter in the Q45 for ages and it was a slouch for the power rating, losing to the 50hp less LS 430 every time. The M45 has this same engin, with 335hp. The big differnce is Infiniti figured out the GEARING. It is VERY aggresive, that is why your cruise at a very high 2300 RPM at 60mph. TImes have improved greatly (acceleration).
4. Benz will have a hybrid S-class and new engines, a new 4.6 V-8 and a new 5.5 liter V-8. They are ditching superchargers in favor of turbos (more power, cheaper to build).
5. Lexus has indeed trademarked the 460 designations and they CANNOT continue with the 4.3 for much longer. How much more power? Well consider, the engine will have DUAL VVTi and Direct Injection. So it will have 20% better fuel economy for one. 2 it will squeeze more power out of the engine. Remember most Lexus customers are not about being the fastest, only we are I fully expect about 340-350hp with equivilent . Similar to the bump when the SC/LS 400 jumped from 260hp to 290hp when they added VVTi to the same engine. The technology was more advanced and increased power with no hurt in fuel economy.
The 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times will of course be lower but I honestly don't expect flat 5 second numbers.

If you truly want the fastest Lexus, it looks like the IS 350 will take the new cake. Its lighter and confirmed with over 300hp. We'll see in 6 months.

LexFather

BTW, only Audi has stated, they are out the HP war, but they just released a M3 killing 420hp RS4. BMW has stated "we will not lose" the HP war, there are very strong rumors they will apply turbo technology. They already have turbo diesals, like the 535d. Benz has no intentions of giving up its stranglehold, its AMG 65 cars have more power and torque than pretty much anything on the planet. The S 65 sedan just got clocked 0-60 in 4.2 seconds, this is a 5000 lbs ride

Yes Caddy got involved but only by name. Their V-cars cannot touch AMG/M cars. Caddy claims 0-60 in 4.6 for the CTS-V but all mags have gotten 5 second runs. The STS-V with a 420hp S/C Northstar V-8 is nice if you like Caddys, but far behind E55/M5 S55 cars. I would have LOVED for Caddy to really try to knock AMG/M but instead (putting the Z06 engine inside), they came to the gun battle with a knife. I do commend them for at least engaging, as Lexus and others simply avoid this fight.

Finally, we get to F-1 and racing, where I am learning (so forgive me). A lot of technology is from BMW and Benz and Audi racing their cars and winning/losing and applying the tech to M/AMG/RS cars. Lexus doesn't officially sanction racing, Toyota does. TeamLexus is TeamLexus, not a part of Lexus.

I think the only AMG/M/RS cars we might ever see, will be "h" cars. Unless Toyota really starts winning in F-1 and from my understanding, that ain't happening.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

We'll have to see how the GS 450h shakes out, but I don't get the impression that it's going to be as powerful as the STS-V, and especially not the E55 or M5 in terms of overall performance. It might be able to keep up with the three of them to an extent because of it's ridiculous torque advantage, but at the top end I think the other three will probably walk away from the 450h.

At the same time though, I don't know if it's so much about having a car that can run with the E55 and M5, as it is about having a car that serves as the "best" of the line (a halo car). I really believe that there are a vast majority of E55 and M5 buyers who buy those cars because 1) they can, 2) because they are fast and 3) because they are exclusive. Despite being performance icons, I doubt that more than 300-400 of the consumers for either of these cars bought it solely because it's faster than a S Type-R, 545i, E500 or GS430. I think (this is my OWN personal opinion) that these cars are purchased more because someone wants to have the best of the best that a line of cars offers, thus making it more of an emotional purchase.

The GS 450h won't win any magazine comparos with the E55 and M5, but then again, when was the last time that Lexus finished first anyways? Lexus as a company is concerned with making profit, keeping it's existing customers happy, and luring in new ones...NOT what the magazines say about their cars. Yes I'm sure that they do pay some attention to the things that Car and Driver or Motor Trend say, but I'm also sure that those comments are a very small consideration in the R&D process for designing an upcoming model.

Lexus will build the GS 450h as the premium model in the GS lineup and to the consumers, that will be plenty. It will be blazingly quick, luxurious, expensive, exclusive, and a status symbol. Once you crest $60K or so in the purchase price of a car, the buy is far more emotional than it is rational or logical. Again, the GS 450h will be the most expensive and most exclusive model in the GS lineup and those two factors alone propel a good number of buyers to become interested in it. Don't forget, a lot of people buy these cars because they CAN, not because they need them. Lexus is now respected enough and admired enough that people are willing to buy higher end models from the company, and this will be the first of a new breed of cars from Lexus. Not just because it's a hybrid but because it's going above and beyond just building well optioned GS 430s and is appealing to a whole new group of more affluent consumers who want the MOST from Lexus and are willing to pay for it. Emotionally and mentally, the GS 450h will be the same type of car for Lexus that the E55 and M5 are for Mercedes and BMW. Physically, it probably won't.

As nice as a 480 or 520HP GS would be, the company is more focused with growing it's image and taking the next step up the ladder, and thus, drawing in the next level of consumers. That's what the GS 450h is for.

On a different note though, to me, the GS 450h only makes sense when the GS 430 sits nicely below it in terms of performance. Once the GS 460 drops it could very well outperform the GS 450h and be less expensive. Even the name "460" dictates a level that is higher then "450". At that point, will hybrid power and the excusivity be enough to draw customers away from the GS 460 to the more expensive GS 450h? I'm not really sure and it's too soon to tell.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

This might be particularly true if rumors of $3.50 a gallon of gas come true in the next year or two. Even rich people often (irrationally) wince at gas prices.

A couple of corrections to your fast fingers young Jedi. I believe BMW just released a 4.8L V8 but I expect 748 isn't a model designation they wanted so they went with previously used 750. And perhaps you meant 325hp today not 525.

I just read about the RS4 and that looks GREAT. And as I've said before it's about more than HP and engines - that RS4 has GREAT wheels, GREAT suspension making the wheel fitment great, and really nice cosmetic changes.

Could be torque converter or gearing. BMW's sport package on their E39 540i includes a higher stall torque converter (just the same mod we love on our GSs). It also includes staggered rims too and a lowered ride. The 330i (old and new) ALSO does the lowered ride. BMW is very clever at differentiating 325, 330i, M3 and other models.

[quote[Remember most Lexus customers are not about being the fastest, only we are [/quote]

If that's where Lexus plans to stay (which they've said it isn't) then they've basically replaced Buick in America (comfy reliable luxurious cars).

Yes, that's the one that's most interesting to me. If it comes out as promising as it seems, there's going to be GIANT hoopla about it, and it will elevate ALL of Lexus' image.

yaro1

If Horsepower is what u want and all out grunt, how about this:

LOL