imo, a firmer ride and better handling is what is expected and appreciated by a "luxury sports sedan" buyer... Of course, not everyone will want that in their "sports" sedan, but alot do... BMW and Mercedes still lead this class because of their cars handling characteristics, and well, because they are BMW and Mercedes.. I don't feel that Lexus will be able to take away sales from them with the new GS as it is... Because it doesn't possess that "aggressiveness" commonly associated with a "sports" sedan.. No doubt, the GS is sportier than an LS, for example... but as far as Lexus taking over the market or a big chunk away from BMW and MB, i don't think this is the answer... With the M, i think Infiniti is more likely to take away from potential BMW 5 series sales, simply based on it's handling and driving characteristics.. I guess it really depends on who's buying these cars and what they are looking for in this class..

 

Well the initial sales numbers show the GS has sold over a 1000 units more than the M has and they were both sold to the public about the same exact time. If anything Lexus already accomplished this about a 1000 units ahead of Inifinti if you want to look at it in that sense.

 

You mean LESS than 1000 units more than the M.

I do think that the GS will take more sales away from the E, and the M is more likely to take sales away from the 5.

The Gen2 GS was pretty successful in the first few years.

GS sales:

2000=28,079
1999=31,884
1998=30,622

As you can see, the GS has sold pretty well in the past. The problem was that Toyota neglected to redesign the car for 8 years, which is pretty long by Japanese standards.

On the other hand, Infiniti has never had success in this segment. In essence, all of the M buyers are coming from somewhere else, and are not repeat buyers. All things considered, Nissan has to be pretty happy that the M sold over 2200 cars in the first month.

(I'm slacking too much, alright back to work.)

 

TRDFantasy, I'd like to add to what you say in support of that. If you look at the new 3.0L V6 at 245 HP and look at the reported 315 HP for the 3.5L V6, you can calculate 82 HP/L and 90 HP/L respectively. I think it is fair to assume that the new 4.6L V8 will have all of the new technology you mentioned and that achieving 80-90HP/L is reasonable. This would translate to 380-420 HP! Combine that with a 6-speed and a fairly low curb weight and you know that this car will rip! I'd be looking for numbers at 5.0s +/-.

In contrast the M45 4.5L engine achieves 74HP/L - which would translate to 370HP in a 5.0L - assuming no major technological advances. I'd assume that Infiniti would eventually add the tech goodies too. So displacement isn't as important as the overall output - and then how that is geared to get it to the pavement.

As for the current gen 4.3L V8 I'd be willing to bet a grand that Lexus could squeeze 30 HP more out of that engine if they wanted to. I think that the decision was made to put the engineering resources into the new engine instead of throwing it at the old one. Additionally, there would be tradeoff''s of reliability, economy and NHV in order to get the extra HP from the current engine. I admire Lexus for this decision. Sometimes you choose to lose a battle in order to win a war.

As for the 450h vs 460 - that one has me curious. Depending upon the electric motors used, it is quite conceivable that the 450h would be the better performer. Some electric motors generate a tremendous amount of torque. The only contrary issue is the added weight of batteries. So I'm curious as to how Lexus sees these 2 cars on their roadmap. Maybe they will both have close performance but the 450h will have the added fuel economy.

I'm glad you mentioned the equivalent slalom performance. I have mentioned this in a few other posts but it didn't get much traction. With a stiffer suspension and active rear-steering you might think that the slalom numbers would be better than the GS. So the GS delivers a more luxurious ride yet still actually handles quite well.

With all of this said - as I have said in other posts - I like both cars. Infiniti has done a real nice job on the M. I happen to like the GS better and that is why I bought one. But the M would probably be my choice if the GS weren't available. The RL is nice too. There are slight design trade-offs between these cars. IMO, they are all "Performance-Luxury". I can see why someone would choose the M if that extra bit of performance is what they wanted. I was willing to trade a few ticks of the clock for what I perceived to be more luxury and refinement.

 

Good point... Infiniti selling 2200 M's in the first month is a good sign for them... because, you are right, they have never really sold that many 40K+ cars in any one month (i don't believe)... so, those buyers must be coming from somewhere... As far as the GS is concerned, once the new engines come (fall of 2006?), sales will obviously increase for Lexus.. I just wonder whether the "most powerful" GS will come by way of the 450h or the 460?? hmmm..

 

Good job to the new GS! Perhaps with new engines but the same timeless body, in the future the GS can continue excellent sales!

 

Exactly, GS sales were very, very strong for 3 years and I suspect in 2001 as well with the updates (we could never find sales figures). With Lexus continuously updating the GS as well as for the first time AWD and hybrid cars, they should stay strong throughout the life of the car, like the ES and LS, RX, and current SC.

 

Indeed ... the new 3L and 3.5 GR engines produce a lot of HP/L. I am guessing though that the 4.6L V8 may have more Torque than HP, which is the opposite of what the GR engines have, save for the 4L 1GR tuned for more Torque. If we assume this ... then it's not that unreasonable to see 360 - 370HP, and 380 - 390 lb-ft of Torque from this new engine.

the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.

Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.

I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.

 

BMW and Mercedes still leading in this class has A LOT to do with their reputations. It has less and less to do with the cars themselves. MB for example recently had a huge recall on 1.3 Million cars. BMWs still have electrical issues.

I think the GS achieves a nice balance of "sport' and "luxury" .... slightly being more luxury because of the direction Lexus takes to building their cars. BMWs are on the sporty side of sport luxury, and MB is similar to Lexus with respect to this balance, unless you count the AMG cars.

Lexus is not aiming at sales that much anymore ... remember Lexus does not want to surpass 300,000 units annually, so they can maintain the prestige and reputation of Lexus. This is why Lexus is moving upscale with higher quality, better materials, more luxury features, more performance, and more emphasis on design .... the L-Finesse theme, which will give Lexus cars thier own unique style and look, while still keeping a family resemblance.

 

The 2 companies concerning engines, are pretty opposite. Carlos Ghosen, Renault-Nissan CEO has stated he sees NOTHING in hybrids. The hybrid Altiima coming, will use old Toyota hybrid tech (Nissan bought it from them).
[COLOR=Blue]Nissan CEO cool on hybrids, sees oil price falling
By Chang-Ran Kim, Asia auto correspondent

TOKYO, Sept 30 (Reuters) - The head of Nissan Motor Co. said he remained unconvinced that hybrid-engine cars were a sound short-term business proposition, adding he believed oil prices would fall from the current historically high levels.

"There is some market demand (for gasoline-electric hybrids)," Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn told a news conference at the unveiling of the new Tiida compact car in Tokyo on Thursday.

"We will come out with a hybrid car in 2006 in the United States as planned, but only because stricter regulations in California will make it a necessity," he said.

Japan's second-biggest auto maker, owned 44.4 percent by France's Renault SA , has an agreement with Toyota Motor Corp. to buy its rival's hybrid technology, having opted to forego development on its own to save money.

Ghosn has repeatedly said that while car makers may claim they are now making money on hybrids, margins on the fuel-sipping vehicles were still much lower than for conventional internal combustion engine cars, equating to a loss of potential profits.

Ghosn, famous for his profit-centred strategy, added that while Toyota's new Prius hybrid car was flying out of U.S. showrooms, its sales were still a drop in the bucket for a 16.9 million-unit-a-year market.

With supply falling chronically short of demand, Toyota now sells less than 5,000 Priuses a month in the United States. But it plans to raise output capacity by half to 180,000 units a year in 2005 -- much of that bound for the United States.

"NO REASON" FOR $50 OIL PRICE

While record-high oil quotes are making hybrid vehicles a more attractive proposition for customers, Ghosn said he expected the U.S. benchmark crude price to fall from the current $50 a barrel level.

"I personally don't think it's going to stay there. I've spoken to many people in the industry ... and there is no physical reason for prices to stay there," he said.

For now, Nissan is aiming to lure environmentally conscious drivers in Japan with fuel-efficient, pure gasoline compact cars such as the Tiida model which goes on sale in Japan on Thursday.

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I think right here, it shows the fundamental difference between the 2 companies. Nissan, lets not forget was losing billions only 5 years ago. The turnaround is impressive but what is more impressive is Toyota being not just a juggernaut but they are truly concerned with quality and the environment (while raking in tons of profits). Oil, dear Ghosen, is way over $50 a barrel already.

The biggest reason for the M45s jump in power is aggresive gearing. The RPM at 60mph is 2300, that is very high for a luxury car. The car has 335hp to the Q45s 340. It ain't weight, the GS weighs 3750 to the M45s huge 4000 lbs weight, as much as a LS 430!

Which shows another difference in direction. Lexus is as concerned with weight as aerodynamics. Low weight means better gas mileage and is always the preference to a heavier car.

Both the M and GS, (even when the GS 460 comes) still lack a manual, so to me its almost a moot point. If you were as sporty as you say, the 545 manual is pretty much the only choice in this class and size vehicle.

 

Agreed.. and you're right, alot of MB and BMW success does have to do with reputation... But because Lexus directly seems to be in competition with MB, and Infiniti directly seems to be in competition with BMW, all reputation aside, the Infiniti M seems to capture the BMW 5 series more so than the GS seems to capture the E-Class, imo... A big reason why people buy BMW, besides the reputation, is because of its driving characteristics and superb handling.. I think if the GS offered a more performance-oriented version of the GS in terms of what the E Class offers (E55), that things would change dramatically.. perhaps they will with the GS450h or one would hope, the GS560h...

 

Lexus has stated they went after the 5. B/C you think it goes after the E, does not mean it does. The GS is more 5 than E. Drive all 3 and see, the E is clearly the cruiser of the bunch when pushed, compared to the GS (its not sloppy but not as sporty). People now buy a Lexus, because its a Lexus, because they feel its the best. People buy BMWs not just b/c they are sporty but BECAUSE everyone says so, the press says so, etc etc. Most BMW drivers don't drive the cars to explore the limits of them, they like to know its there though.

The issue that LEXUS does have to an extent, they have done luxury so well, that any sport offering they make, will always be overshadowed by the luxury aspect. But Lexus has done sport with success, the IS and GS prove that. And do not forget TEAM LEXUS, who races IS 300s and GS 400s and has won multiple races (Where is Infiniti's team?).

 

You see, here is where i see a problem with this... If the GS450h and GS460 perform similarly, i don't see gas prices being an issue when deciding on whether or not to buy the hybrid or not buy the hybrid.. imo, if someone is looking for performance, they are going to go with the best performer in the product line.. If the 450h and 460 are about the same in terms of performance, and similarly priced, i think most may opt for the 460, simply because it has the refined V8 as it's engine, rather than the V6 in the hybrid.. Plus, people may be leery of the reliability of the new hybrid vs. the V8 GS they've been driving for years, which they KNOW is reliable... I just hope there are clear and distinct advantages for both, otherwise there may be sales problems with one or the other.. i also hope that Lexus eventually completes the line with a high performance GS560h, which would incorporate the hybrid technology with the V8, and could really set it apart from the competition..

 

It's more than that. They buy a BMW because they experience the balance and handling/steering/drivetrain every time they drive it, even in routine driving. When driving a stock Lexus you're usually struck by the smoothness, the quiet, the comfort of the ride, and the ergonomics and materials of the interior. With the LS430 and GS430 you're quite impressed by the power too. But only the IS in stock Lexus form even comes close to impressing a driver with it's balance handling/steering/drivetrain. I'd like to drive a new GS430 sometime though - maybe I'll like its variable dampers and VDIM.

 

I understand your point about torque vs. HP. As you probably know, the reason that a lot of V8's tend to have higher torque figures than HP is because they have "breathing" problems - not being able to get enough intake air to sustain the torque at higher RPM. HP is a function of torque and RPMs so the longer the engine can sustain the torque the higher the HP. WIth the new technology that you mentioned I would expect that the new 4.6L V8 would be able to sustain torque at higher RPMs and get better HP/L figures. The 4.3L achieves 70HP/L - so I'd hope that getting to 75-80 would be achieveable in the 4.6L (if not higher). Of course, Lexus may choose to tune the engine down for reliability, economy or smoothness of operation. Either way, I think we are in agreement that the new 4.6 should be a nice step up in performance.

I was not aware that the Infiniti 4.5L V8 isn't ULEV! And that they don't have experience with Direct Injection. So they have to use displacement to achieve their target market niche "Designed to Outperform". BMW has had some reliability/longevity issues with the M3 and M5 motors because they push the envelope so hard with what the engine can do. I'm glad the Lexus seems to hold back a little because that last few % creates a big trade-off between performance and longevity.

What you say about the 450h and 460 makes complete sense to me. I understand that the 450h designator is meant to convey that the car performs as if the engine were a 4.5L V8. If the hybrid were to be the ultimate performer then Lexus would have named it with a higher number designator. I'm still curious about how Lexus will market these 2 models and what the real differentiation will be. I suspect that the real marketing benefit to Lexus goes far beyond just offering model choice. It goes to brand awareness, technology leadership, environmental image, etc, etc.