2005 E55 or 2006 GS430?
05-12-05, 02:09 PM
#106
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by Raptor.1
I find it interesting that people are talking about the E55 and the GS 430 in the same breath. I guess that says a lot about Lexus in that that it is being compared to the top of the line MB sedan. Lexus is not trying to be the fastest sedan with the GS. "If they wanted to do that they could easily." Lexus is trying to be the best for the mainstream market which is exactly what they are.
05-12-05, 02:13 PM
#107
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Originally Posted by looknow12
No kidding about that. Toyota & Ferrari are the only Formula One teams that build their own engines. No question they have the background.
BTW, I'd get a Lexus over a Benz any day even if money is no object. I can't stand to support a company that builds unreliable cars and charge a premium for it. I didn't read through the entire thread so I don't know if it's been said before, but there is a very high chance you will end up spending a lot more than the initial purchase price difference on the maintenance and repairs of the Benz.
Last edited by PhantomZX; 05-12-05 at 02:17 PM.
05-12-05, 02:41 PM
#108
Originally Posted by Raptor.1
I am not sure what you are talking about here, 35K is not $3500, it is $35,000. I think you are mixing two diferent senerios up here. On the 2001 I spent no more than $50,000 total for the car and mods combined.
A GS400/430 is about $55k when new (I don't think you can get a GS400/430 less than 50k when new).
In order to get close to what E55 is putting on the wheel, the SRT Twin turbo kit is $35,000. Which means for $90k you got a twin turbo GS400/430 that has the same output as a stock E55.
At 11 PSI i believe it is just pushing over 400 on the wheels.
But that 90k you spend on the GS430 does not give you upgraded brakes, nor chassis upgrade, and not to mention suspension upgrades.
The E55 is a 100k car fully loaded, and typical price is between $85k to $95k. It already comes with upgrade brakes, stiffer suspension, and upgrade in chassis. In order for you to mod GS to same level as E55, you will need new brakes, new suspension, which will probably run you close to 10k (if you want a good setup). No to mention new wheels and tires.
I am just point out holes in your argument that GS430 is such a great buy and offers performance of an exotic. The simple fact is that 2nd GS430 is not a good candidate to mod, while the 2nd gen GS300 was (due to it's in-line 6 is from supra).
In order for the modded GS430 to be able to hang with E55, you are looking at 100k large (if not higher). So which one is a better buy? A 100K pure stock E55, or 100k modded GS430?
E55 can be modded for quiet cheaply with headers, pulley, ECU, and bigger intercooler and can put down over 600 HP to the rear tires.
My point is that your comments were just incorrect.
05-12-05, 02:49 PM
#109
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05-12-05, 02:50 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by MrAMG
Thanks! I have read several of your posts at the mb forum, and I must say you've earned my respect for you! 
Now it's time to plan howt to mod the gs430, with the guidance of this forum.
Now it's time to plan howt to mod the gs430, with the guidance of this forum.
05-12-05, 02:52 PM
#111
Originally Posted by looknow12
Firstly, three motors don't drive the RX. One electric motor is reserved for reclaiming power during braking to charge the battery. It is also used to start the gas engine and for controlling some drivetrain linkage (cannot remember what).
Regarding adding all available power source up to determine the total power. It is done all day long. Read the examples I've provided, I'm confident with my statements on that topic.
Yes, I did state the GS450 might give the 55 a run for its money at certain acceleration points. I stated this because I've driven the RX400 and know how fast it really is at high speeds. The RX400 might not be a rocket during hole shots, but man is it fast when on the highway. Acceleration from 50-70, 60-80, 70-even 90 is so darn fast, I'd swear it gives many sport cars a run for their money (at those speeds). The GS450H will be more geared towards performance, I truly believe that it will be extremely fast during high speed accelerations if the RX400h is just a slight indication. I don't however believe it will be a rocket during hole shots.
That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. By the way, when I said I never made any specific claims I was responded to your previous comments regarding my comments which at the time I believe did not include your most recent quote (I believe it will give the 55 a run for its money). Sounds like a miscommunication, I don't mind taking the blame for that.
BTW, I've driven the SL55 (about 500 miles of driving) and I'm well aware of the raw power this kind of motor has. I don't think anyone here is trying to take anything away from AMG.
Regarding adding all available power source up to determine the total power. It is done all day long. Read the examples I've provided, I'm confident with my statements on that topic.
Yes, I did state the GS450 might give the 55 a run for its money at certain acceleration points. I stated this because I've driven the RX400 and know how fast it really is at high speeds. The RX400 might not be a rocket during hole shots, but man is it fast when on the highway. Acceleration from 50-70, 60-80, 70-even 90 is so darn fast, I'd swear it gives many sport cars a run for their money (at those speeds). The GS450H will be more geared towards performance, I truly believe that it will be extremely fast during high speed accelerations if the RX400h is just a slight indication. I don't however believe it will be a rocket during hole shots.
That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. By the way, when I said I never made any specific claims I was responded to your previous comments regarding my comments which at the time I believe did not include your most recent quote (I believe it will give the 55 a run for its money). Sounds like a miscommunication, I don't mind taking the blame for that.
BTW, I've driven the SL55 (about 500 miles of driving) and I'm well aware of the raw power this kind of motor has. I don't think anyone here is trying to take anything away from AMG.
There is an excellent article done by Standford University on this subject matter.
I am not a mechanical engineer (i am a electrical engineer). But I did worked on solar power car and as well as interned in one of the big three a long time back. I think I know a little more about powertrain than you.
It does not matter how you feel about driving the RX400H. The fact is that RX400H top gear acceleration is 1+ second behind E55 in 30-50 and 50-70.
The GS430 is 0.9 and 1.4 second slower than E55 in 30-50 and 50-70. You are asking a V6 hybrid system to improve the acceleration by over 30% as compare to a pure gasoline powered V8.
We are talking about a 2 second flat on top gear in E55. It's not a linear improvement we talking about here. It gets extremely diffcult to improve acceleration times for such a powerful car.
GS450H will be faster than GS430. But to ask it to beat GS430 by over 30% in acceleration is way too much and impossible to perform. Consider Lexus has already said that GS450H max system HP will be in the 300HP range. I fail to see what GS450H has to offer that would allow it to have a 2 second flat time on 30-50 and 50-70.
Looking at 0-60 number would tell you the same thing. GS430 is a 5.7 second car, while the E55 is a 4.2 second car. Again, you are asking the GS450H to be over 30% faster than GS430 to match E55's number.
Think about it.
05-12-05, 06:33 PM
#112
Wow this thread is long lol
Quick correction: The GS300 engine is similar to the Supra N/A engine. The internals are quite different on the TT version (lower compression and stronger).
Soon after the 450H is launched, the V8 will be upgraded (4.6? as rumored) while the 300 will be up'd to the 350 (assuming the route copies what's going on in Japan) in the 07 MY GS.
I see where you are coming from when saying you can have a modded GS430 or a E55 + equal $$ in mods and you'll almost be in the same range... it's the old arguement of "Better stock car or modified middle car" and it's all on preference.
In comparison, ya, it's obvious we're comparing the wrong cars (E500 should be comparable to the GS430, not the E55) and we saw someone throw in the 450H as the competitor. That helps the cause, but doesn't fulfill the requirements of an entry level exotic (E55, to me, is an entry-level exotic... I'd love to own one =D ).
So ya... if we travel back to the original topic, we see the comparison because the man can't decide between a middle of the road cruiser car vs a powerful sports sedan. The comparison is rather ridiculous (different market segments) but the man wants to spend his money and (hopefully) get his money's worth.
Maybe we should put this discussion on hold until Lexus (who knows if it'll happen...) finally releases the "AMG" line...
(looking back, I don't think my post makes too much sense... but I haven't said anything in a while
)
Quick correction: The GS300 engine is similar to the Supra N/A engine. The internals are quite different on the TT version (lower compression and stronger).
Soon after the 450H is launched, the V8 will be upgraded (4.6? as rumored) while the 300 will be up'd to the 350 (assuming the route copies what's going on in Japan) in the 07 MY GS.
I see where you are coming from when saying you can have a modded GS430 or a E55 + equal $$ in mods and you'll almost be in the same range... it's the old arguement of "Better stock car or modified middle car" and it's all on preference.
In comparison, ya, it's obvious we're comparing the wrong cars (E500 should be comparable to the GS430, not the E55) and we saw someone throw in the 450H as the competitor. That helps the cause, but doesn't fulfill the requirements of an entry level exotic (E55, to me, is an entry-level exotic... I'd love to own one =D ).
So ya... if we travel back to the original topic, we see the comparison because the man can't decide between a middle of the road cruiser car vs a powerful sports sedan. The comparison is rather ridiculous (different market segments) but the man wants to spend his money and (hopefully) get his money's worth.
Maybe we should put this discussion on hold until Lexus (who knows if it'll happen...) finally releases the "AMG" line...
(looking back, I don't think my post makes too much sense... but I haven't said anything in a while
)
05-12-05, 07:06 PM
#113
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I'd still like to know what mods give you 80HP for only $3500 without the use of forced induction.
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
05-12-05, 08:23 PM
#114
Originally Posted by E55_POWER
I'd still like to know what mods give you 80HP for only $3500 without the use of forced induction.
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
05-12-05, 11:53 PM
#115
Originally Posted by E55_POWER
I'd still like to know what mods give you 80HP for only $3500 without the use of forced induction.
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
The TT GS looks pretty impressive. The HP is about 10 to 15 more than stock E55 but the TQ is about the same. An E55 with just ECU and pulley will put down 460HP and 520TQ, at least mine did...and the TQ is much more flatter than the SRT TT.
All in all, I could care less. I'm enjoying every bit of what my GS3AWD is giving me and the power is not all that shabby for a 3.0 displacement...at least my butt dyno seems to think som
this is one thing good about E55, the flat and fat torque. This is not something that the SRT TT kit can reproduce.
I love my torque.
Too bad, the rest of the car really needs some help.
I am not sure if you are lucky. Yes, you got all the benefit of having bugs worked out for the 05, and even had more choice of color.
BUT I GOT THE FREE MAINT.
(i am just making myself feel better).BTW, I really liked my new M45 (picked up last saturday). For $55k, with rear steer. This thing handles quiet well. Althought not as fun as a 545i. But at price that is $10k less with more feature is really hard to beat.
I still think lexus should have offered an optional sports package on the GS430 that would allow it to be as fun to drive as the M45. I liked lexus interior and am much more confident with lexus's quality. Too bad, lexus is not listen to customer like me.
Last edited by chiawei; 05-12-05 at 11:58 PM.
05-13-05, 03:09 AM
#116
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by chiawei
1. Please go take a look into parellel hybrid system (which toyota version is). See how max system power are generated. It's not adding max power rating of each motor.
There is an excellent article done by Standford University on this subject matter.
I am not a mechanical engineer (i am a electrical engineer). But I did worked on solar power car and as well as interned in one of the big three a long time back. I think I know a little more about powertrain than you.
It does not matter how you feel about driving the RX400H. The fact is that RX400H top gear acceleration is 1+ second behind E55 in 30-50 and 50-70.
The GS430 is 0.9 and 1.4 second slower than E55 in 30-50 and 50-70. You are asking a V6 hybrid system to improve the acceleration by over 30% as compare to a pure gasoline powered V8.
We are talking about a 2 second flat on top gear in E55. It's not a linear improvement we talking about here. It gets extremely diffcult to improve acceleration times for such a powerful car.
GS450H will be faster than GS430. But to ask it to beat GS430 by over 30% in acceleration is way too much and impossible to perform. Consider Lexus has already said that GS450H max system HP will be in the 300HP range. I fail to see what GS450H has to offer that would allow it to have a 2 second flat time on 30-50 and 50-70.
Looking at 0-60 number would tell you the same thing. GS430 is a 5.7 second car, while the E55 is a 4.2 second car. Again, you are asking the GS450H to be over 30% faster than GS430 to match E55's number.
Think about it.
There is an excellent article done by Standford University on this subject matter.
I am not a mechanical engineer (i am a electrical engineer). But I did worked on solar power car and as well as interned in one of the big three a long time back. I think I know a little more about powertrain than you.
It does not matter how you feel about driving the RX400H. The fact is that RX400H top gear acceleration is 1+ second behind E55 in 30-50 and 50-70.
The GS430 is 0.9 and 1.4 second slower than E55 in 30-50 and 50-70. You are asking a V6 hybrid system to improve the acceleration by over 30% as compare to a pure gasoline powered V8.
We are talking about a 2 second flat on top gear in E55. It's not a linear improvement we talking about here. It gets extremely diffcult to improve acceleration times for such a powerful car.
GS450H will be faster than GS430. But to ask it to beat GS430 by over 30% in acceleration is way too much and impossible to perform. Consider Lexus has already said that GS450H max system HP will be in the 300HP range. I fail to see what GS450H has to offer that would allow it to have a 2 second flat time on 30-50 and 50-70.
Looking at 0-60 number would tell you the same thing. GS430 is a 5.7 second car, while the E55 is a 4.2 second car. Again, you are asking the GS450H to be over 30% faster than GS430 to match E55's number.
Think about it.
What we're talking about is the possiblity of the GS450h. We don't know what the specs will be for that vehicle yet. Lexus says the HP will be equivalent to a 4.5 liter V8 (in their March 23rd press release), I don't believe they ever stated exact HP, and they certainly never mentioned torque.
You really want me to retract my statement. I won't, not now. When the specs for the GS450h comes out and I'm wrong, THEN, I'll say so. But until then I will say hold to my statement. It's so funny too, we've spent a lot of time on this thread all because of my vague initial statement. Let's break it down before I end my time on this discussion.
Here's my statement:
I think that is a great decision. The GS Hybrid will offer all of the great technology in the GS, plus the Hybrid advantage. Additional torque. The GS Hybrid might in fact give the E55 a run for it's money during certain passing speeds
The GS hybrid might... give the E55 a run for it's(oops the apostrophe shouldn't be there, that's a mistake) money... at certain passing speeds.
When I started this roller coaster, I had two points. One: Don't discount electric motors. You of all people I believe have done that considerably since the begining. As an electrical engineer that's shameful
. Second: The new hybrid might be able to hang enough with the 55 at certain speeds to keep the 55 driver on their toes. At these speeds we're not talking about much.But my promise is simple: When or if the specs come out which prove my statement wrong, I will make a post entitled "looknow was wrong". Even if it's marginal. Fair enough?
05-13-05, 08:09 PM
#117
Lexus Fanatic
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Originally Posted by xravexboix
He's probably adding up the paper numers at each add-on's peak number... forgetting about the peak being at different RPM ranges and numbers changing accordingly with each upgrade...
05-13-05, 08:16 PM
#118
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Just curious guys, if someone offered to GIVE YOU FREE either an SRT TT GS400 or an E55 which would you choose? I was just gonna post what I'd choose but figured I'd rather hear what you guys have to say first.
05-13-05, 08:49 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Just curious guys, if someone offered to GIVE YOU FREE either an SRT TT GS400 or an E55 which would you choose? I was just gonna post what I'd choose but figured I'd rather hear what you guys have to say first.
Last gen GS TT vs. E55 - E55 hands down
Current GS TT - E55 - I'd probably take GS...love the features it has but the seats would need much improvents along with suspension and brakes to match the power. If just straight up GS with TT, then I'd take E55.
05-13-05, 09:54 PM
#120
I totally agree... E55 all the way! For power avail. at RPM ranges I'd actually use, the supercharger in the E55 would be practical! The GS3 may have a higher peak power in the end, but if you take the derivative (rate of speed, or accelearion) off a dyno chart, you see the E55 would be evenly matched until ridiculous speeds you'd never touch.
Hopefully the GS has a suspension and brake upgrade prior to the TT... it's quite a shame to see a high powered car with a stock suspension...
Hopefully the GS has a suspension and brake upgrade prior to the TT... it's quite a shame to see a high powered car with a stock suspension...