flipside909

Hmmm call me the typical practical Lexus buyer. Sure I love what Lexus offers but it doesn't necessarily classify me as the "typical" buyer. What buyer doesn't have interest in some type of performance? Sure,there are all types of buyers out there in this particual target market. That's the beauty of competition. There is a different car for every different driver out there. We know for a fact the performance oriented crowd will go with the BMW or the Infiniti, and the luxo crowd will generally go for the Lexus or the MBZ. There are many reasons why I bought an IS300 over a G35 or a 3 series. But let's leave that to another discussion.

Yes i've driven an 545i...and I would take it over an M45 anyday and even a new GS. But realistically and practicality, I would choose the new GS for the obvious reasons and because I don't feel that extra $8k sticker price (for arguments sake) is worth it for me for what I will be using the vehicle for. Definitely the BMW cars are drivers cars. I do not doubt that or even the Inifniti M series for that matter. True interior ergonomics aren't the best of it's class, but you're right, the target demographic for the 5 series has performance in mind, they can care less what it looks like inside in reality. Sure the 5 and the M demographic is different in comparison to a Lexus oriented buyer/demographic but that doesn't necessarily dictate the market demand or what people want in a vehicle in this segment. Everyone has their preferences and choices. The 2nd Gen GS is a great car overall, I still wouldn't mind owning one, but it definitely true fact will never out handle it's BMW counterparts. And in comparison to a stock IS300, the GS' handling is weak for argument's sake regardless of how much chassis underbracing you add, different dampening/spring rates of coilovers or larger wheels. So yes you are right, out of all the Lexus offerings, the IS is the most handling oriented of their whole lineup to date. Defintely agree with you on that.

Realistically, do you realize which group of people actually buy these vehicles? This particular age group drive these performance model vehicles because they tend to be in a financial status that most people are still working to get up to. General purpose for these cars for this particular age demographic are regular errands around town, a trip to the grocery store and back or go out for a leisurely drive. I witness this day in and day out. I work for the Automobile Club of Southern California and see day in and day out what our members drive in and out of our offices. Where I work services a fairly affluent area of Orange County, where you see the those 60+ year olds drive in their CL55's and M5's in or the widowed lady driving her late husband's Porsche Cayenne Turbo for an inspection or smog check. My point is very valid and my rationale is based on daily life experiences and observances. The general buyer of ANY of these cars will never exploit the full extent of their vehicles regardless if it's Luxury Sport or Sport Luxury. Sure there maybe that small percentage of performance enthusiasts out there, but to be realistic, majority of the buyers of these cars will never experience the full potential.

Let's take a look at where i'm from...Southern California. We are car culture capital of the world. I can guarantee you, 1 or maybe 2 out of 20 BMW, MBZ, Infiniti or dare I say Lexus owners of each of their respective brands, care to exploit the full potential of their cars whether it be an M series, AMG line or etc. Most of the buyers here in SoCal ( to recap, car culture capital of the world, the location of where most luxury vehicles are sold and the most vehicles registered in one geographic location) buy their cars because of status/class and/or their well being. A small handful even realize they have a sub 5 second 0-60/ 13 second or lower 1/4 car. Most people buy that particular performance model car because it costs more or because it's better than what the Jones' have. We can all agree the American mentality is more = better. Americans are greedy. The performance minded buyers only represent a small percentage of the whole segment. Sure a the Lexus offering isn't as sporty for some, but for others, the BMW and Infiniti isn't as luxurious for some. It's all preference.

LexFather

My 2 cents since I agree/disagree. Lexus stock may not be the sportiest but IMO, the new one drives like a L-tuned stock now. And when I moved up from the SC to the GS, it was perfect, a sporty Lexus with the same LExus traits.

I think Lexus does offer both sport and luxury cars in its lineup unlike others who only provide cars that all lean heavily one way.

I think the aveage M35/45 buyer will purchase b/c its just cheaper than the competiton, bottom line, no matter if it won comparions or not. The cars are the lowest priced in the segment and you get a very good car for the asking price.

BMW is more an emotional purchase, they have the BRAND appeal that people are willing to have less power and less features or just pay more. BMW provokes emotion in people, its a "dream" car, even in a base 325 with leatherette. Just to OWN a BMW, drives a purchase.

Clearly with Lexus, its about quality and luxury first then the panache of owning a Lexus. But if you want sport, you can get a IS or GS. You want full blow lux, get a ES or LS.

KKelly

I would agree that Southern California may be the car culture capital of the world. However, given this trendiness it may not be the best example of who buys these cars. Unless you would all like us to drive hybrids like DiCaprio and all the other Hollywood cattle. In Northern California, the vast majority of E39 M5 owners were 40-50 years old and drove the snot out of them until they bought their 996 Turbo. Of course, they didn't necessarily drive them well from my experience on M5 drives but they did spend a lot of time at redline.

flipside909

That can be true for the people you know of or are associated with amongst the small tight knit group of enthusiast E39 M5 owners. But that doesn't account for the rest of the general public in NorCal (East Bay, South Bay, Peninsula, Marin, or whatever) that has the same exact car. NorCal, SoCal or not...the average buyer will not push their car to the limits regardless of what kind of car it is.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

flipside - enjoyed your post. But I think the following was a bit of a contradiction!

So you will take the 545i over the competition but then you won't. Actually, I think that's probably a conflict many have.

And I agree MANY MANY people buy based on status and keeping up with the Joneses or what will look good at Church, the country club, or what have you.

Amen.

flipside909

Contradictory yes. But in my present point in life right now, a 545i is not a viable option. As much as I would like one, it's not the best choice from a practical standpoint.

Sad but true. I have a neighbor that just leased two brand new vehicles a new 05 Maxima and an 05 Maxima within 3 days of each other...everytime we buy a new car, they go out to lease a new car or two a few weeks sometimes months later.

It's the American way I guess haha.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

That was before you drove the 997S. Or even many other cars you've driven since.

I'd love to see a poll of the general public answering "Do you think Lexus makes sporty cars?" I bet it would be 99.9% "no." It might be interesting if the same question were posed about Mercedes - I think people would say yes because they've seen so many SL's, CL's and more recently SLK's around over the years. No point in polling about BMW, the result would be 99% "yes".

I think you're probably right and it's a good strategy if you're not #1 or #2 in a market place. It's also what DC is doing with Chrysler - bang for the buck.

Agreed - and the power of the brand is amazing. Lexus doesn't have that kind of intense clout yet, although it certainly has a loyal following and is building a great brand.

But I think you'd agree the IS and GS are a pretty light 'sport' offering. All the competing brands offer sport packages and Lexus doesn't for either IS or GS. The M45 offers 19s. We know the IS and GS can even just *look* sporty with SMALL CHANGES (rims and a subtle drop), but they don't even offer that. It seems like they dipped their toe in the water with L-Tuned, which they've since dumped and which had the best stealth marketing I've seen in a while, and they gave up. I know they say they'll be back... we'll see.

LexFather

Paul, I swear your car is just as tight as the 997. I swear it mahn and the suspensions on both felt similar in feel. BUT, the 997 was louder and smaller so its more intimage and the steering response is just telepathic. The GS even with exhuast and bracing etc etc, still feels super ultra refined, amazingly. And the 997 clearly, with a manual and with more power and lighter weight, well, its a pocket rocket, so immediate.

I agree, most people will say Lexus is not sporty and that is an image problem they are going to have to continue to fight but will continue to lose if they continue (how many times will that word be said, lol) to not offer more power and not offer manuals and no hi performance division.

I think the 19s on the M45 help with the look more than anything. That is one big slabsided car 59" high! With the 18s (still 1" bigger than the GS 300) the car looks ridiculous. But most all new cars have the small rim/big car problem.

flipside909

Haha you're right.

O/T I just saw on the freeway today on my commute to work this morning... a poser M35 trying to be an M45 w/the 19" wheels.

TRDFantasy

It's never enough for you is it

If Lexus starts offering GOBS of sports in its sedans, then I bet you'll be saying Lexus has lost touch with it's core brand values, and is "too sporty"

Face it ... Lexus has it's own unique style and it's not going to stray from that. BMW has it's own unique style, same with MB ... although MB is all over the map with it's style.

Lexus cars have core values, and they are a quiet, comfortable, isolated cabin ... with very high quality interiors and huge attention to detail. Sport, performance, etc. ... they have always been secondary qualities ... but now, design (L-Finesse) and sport/performance are priorities for upcoming Lexus cars, and so these qualities will further complement the core qualities Lexus already has, which will make these cars into very tempting packages. The only thing that Lexus really needed to work on was a more unique design language, and a cohesive one, which L-Finesse is, and more sports/performance options, which ARE coming. I don't need to mention the GS450h or the LS600h .

On top of that, if you read the IS press release, which seems like you probably didn't, there will be a sport package offered for the new IS, along with a revised, performance-tuned version of VDIM. I think the IS350 w/ a sports package will be more than enough sport .

This is not even going into the possibility of the Lexus performance arm, which is said to offer performance hybrids, which would make Lexus even more unique when compared to the competitors. Lexus will be watching RX400h and GS450h sales to decide to give the go-ahead on the performance arm. Realistically, there is a good chance this performance arm will come.

And of course, there's the LF-A .... which I am betting money will go to production for sure.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Um, no, I'd say that Lexus had broadened its range and had become a REAL threat to MB and BMW.

OK, then you go on to say Lexus will go away from that style with LF-A, IS350, GS450h, etc.

Enjoy...

TRDFantasy

I didn't say Lexus would go away from that style ... all I said was that Lexus would complement it's core values with more performance, more sports, etc.

Indeed, Lexus already is a REAL threat to BMW and MB, but now they will be absolutely lethal, especially if they give the green light for the hybrid performance arm. With performance hybrids, the competition won't be able to keep up on the same level.

doug_999

Guys - I drive 5 miles to work - one stop light the entire way - 35 mph is the max speed limit. I never take my car to the track and I would say that I drive it max 7/10ths of what it can do. You know what? I WANT A SPORTY CAR BACK IN MY LIFE! The GS is killing me. I feel like an old man driving it. Granted I have no suspension mods but jeez this thing floats all over the road. So even with a wimpy drive like I have, I want a sportier car than the 2nd Gen GS430. Will the 3rd Gen do it for me? Maybe, I will evaluate it carefully at the end of the lease. My point is, even if you only drive the car at 7/10ths and NEVER take it to the track, it doesn't mean you can't have or want a car with some sport to it.

tmds

It's the Sport trim that adds the 19" wheels and there is both an M35 Sport and M45 Sport. I suppose he was a poseur in the same way a GS300 driver is.

Shogun

OK ,so the moan was that the 3GS was not winning top honors in the mags and it was further stated that the mags were biased...

It was also stated that Lexus appeals to a different, and more mainstream, buyer than does the M45, BMW545, etc. I think it's safe to say that this type of "buyer" is better represented by the authors/editors of Consumer Reports, Consumer Digest, etc. than those from C/D, R/T. Motor Trend, Automobile, etc.

I suspect Lexus will continue to take top honors in the more mainstream magazines but the 3GS lost its footing on the performance ladder.

The 2GS and 3GS target(ed) different markets. Heck, if the magzines are not driving that point home then simply review the drastically different marketing launch strategies between the two models.

2GS - Something wicked... Fastest Automatic Sedan in the world...

3GS - Unleash the exhilarating power...

Stepping off my box of soap now...

Eric