KevinGS

How is the GS the 'total package', but doesn't even offer a sport edition?

Driving the new GS is simply not all that exciting. It's very quiet, and moves along nicely, and even briskly when asked to do so...but in stock form, it simply does not make me want to drive it faster.

The M at least entices you to charge an onramp, or to take the long route home and hit those back, windy roads. The GS just doesn't offer that kind of enticement.

And it's $60,000.

BMWs may not be nearly as reliable, and certainly the newer generation of BMWs look kinda funny, if not ugly from some angles...but damn if all sport model BMWs don't entice you to not only take your favorite onramps without braking, but they entice you to FIND a winding road, ANY winding road just so you and the car can perform a special dance.

The GS, at least a stock GS, 2nd AND 3rd generation, they just don't do that. They're nice cars, and well-built, but they don't inspire you to drive them hard.

And sure, maybe this sportier driver isn't the kind of buyer Lexus is seeking (obviously not), but to claim the GS is the 'total package' needs further explanation. In stock form, it's a nice car, but for the sportier crowd, it does leave you longing for more.

And did I mention that car is $60,000? LOL

Hec, even the Caddy STS V8 is more fun to drive than the GS.

adb3

These kind of discussions are so tiresome and borders on being immature. If a person is shopping this price range and car segment, you'd think that person would research very carefully before forking over the kind of money needed to purchase one of these babies. To be disappointed by the 3GS's interior or any other OEM aspect after the fact, I'm sorry I just don't understand. Makes me wonder about how that person makes decisions in other areas of their life.

And why do folks feel they have to engage in these, IMHO, childish exchanges as to which car is better. It usually boils down to personal preference anyway so to discuss ad infinitis the attributes or shortcomings of one make versus another is almost pointless. If a person on this board likes another car over a Lexus, so be it. And I don't have a problem with that person stating there case. But I'm curious why a person who doesn't like Lexus would stay or post on a board for Lexus ethusiasts. Are you trying to convince others to your preference in cars? If so, you're wasting your time. If not, then are you being just an agitator? Personally, I come on this board to get info about Lexus vehicles to improve my Lexus experience. I didn't come here to discuss the merits of one brand over another. I think it's more than obvious that I've already made a choice.

As almost numerous as people themselves are the reasons for which folks buy cars. That's why car magazines, try as they might, have little effect on what the mainstream buyer selects as his/her mode of transportation. Now granted, high-end buyers probably stay more informed by reading these magazines, but I think even these folks use them as just one of the many factors they weigh in buying a car. Case in point, with all the lauding about the new M by most magazines, you would think sales would be exploding. They are certainly outselling the old M's many times over, but the previous M's sales were so dismal, any success is significant. However, the M's still are not outselling BMW 5's, Merc E20's, Cadillac STS, or even 3GS. Just goes to show you that folks will purchase what they want, so to digress into discussions like this is worthless.

Just my 2 cents...carry on.

LexFather

You are entitled to YOUR opinions clearly. I find the GS fun to drive as I stated in my review it now rides like a 2GS with the L-tuned suspension. And oh, I drove my 2GS very hard, stock and modded. It DID entice me. When I test drive the 3GS, it DID entice me to push it. Clearly, the M35/45 is the same way and the BMW.

Your acting like the new GS finished horribly in comparisons. The GS always represented itself very well and was a sporty car. To most editors, it was not the sportiest.

And a car equipped with a "sport package" does not make it a complete package so the loss of one isn't the end of the world either.
Total package is not just some magazine scores you guys live and die by:

1. If you look at my (Search Tahara) review, the GS is built in the worlds HIGHEST RATED car plant.
2. If you look at crash testing, the GS scores near the highest in tests.
3. If you look at projected re-sale value, the GS scores near the highest.
4. If you look at the interior, it is hailed as world-class and intuitive to the driver.
5. If you drive it, it has more than ample power in 300 and 430 forms.
6. If you push it, the car stays composed and never makes you feel out of control.
7. Acceleration is very competative with this class, still near tops with THE LEAST power ratings. That says something.
8. You get a brand new 6 speed auto.
9. You get styling that has won a Euro award, a perfect score in Road and Track and is part of a design language.
10. You get projected top quality in class (like the last GS).
11. You get top dealer service when you take your car in for service.
12. You get little thoughtful features throughout the car, LED lights everywhere (brighter than halogen), drop down button box (no busy dash), 3 choices of wood with your interior color choice.
13. You get a the panache and prestige of owning a Lexus. When you arrive in a GS, it does the explaining for you. You don't have to explain to people your purchase. People KNOW what you drive, it attracts attention, the name Lexus is revered and respected like BMW and Benz.
14. you get TOP gas mileage results in this class.
15. You get top materials, the smallest panel gaps

I could go on and on. That is what makes the GS the total package. You see, magazine reviews wring the car around the track. Your lucky to get the 1 year test review. What I stated above they mostly DO NOT take into account.

Buyers do, as the GS is meeting sales expectations.

LexFather

Good point, the pubic HAS spoken with their hard earned money.

chuckb

who has higher resale than Lexus?

btw-Sick, did you delete Cliffuds poll? that's really not entitling him to his opinion, even if the max/GS thing has been severly beaten to death, you can't deny it.

LexFather

DaveGS4 did it, if you have any questions, PM him please
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/...9/article.html

Top 10 Cars With the Best Residual Value for 2005

Want to buy a car that really holds its value? If resale value is important to you, these are the cars likely to depreciate the least during the ownership period. Below we show the percentage of its original value that each vehicle is likely to retain after five years with an annual mileage of 15,000. Keep in mind that the residual value percentages are based on the national True Market Value® (TMV) price, plus typical options and destination charge.

1. Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class — 55.2%

2. Mini Cooper — 55%

3. Ford GT — 52%

4. Mercedes-Benz CLK55 AMG — 50%
Toyota Camry Solara

5. Lexus SC 430 — 49.8%

6. Lexus ES 330 — 48.8%

7. Chevrolet Corvette — 48.5%

8. Audi S4 — 48%

9. Nissan Altima — 47.6%

10. Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG — 47.5%

Gojirra99

I have seen a # of sources that says the new 5 series is tops in it's class, still perceived to be the #1 driver's car by the general public, but given what I think of the Banglelized look, it's still to me

I must have missed it, but if it showed trolling intentions, I think censorship is justified. I didn't see the post though, so I won't comment . . .

KevinGS

OK.

Sick, I never mentioned a comparison test published by anybody. Because for me to honestly compare two cars, I need to drive them myself. Which I did.

I actually spent a few days in the new '06 GS430.

And I liked it alot, especially it's complete serenity from the outside world. But I got so caught up in the serenity, and listening to classical music and listening to C-Span, I forgot to enjoy the car itself. It's a great car to be in, but not too much to be driven exuberantly...of course, that's just me.

When I got in the new BMW5, and even the Caddy, it always seemed like the car itself wanted to be driven hard, with it's tighter controls, engine note, and great tip-in into turns. Sure they have lots of other 'issues', but the sporty driving feel is a huge plus for both.

The GS still has that Camry SE DNA soaked into its bones, and I can feel it. It just loafs and rolls around turns, and you begin to feel kind of disconnected from it all. It's too surreal, again, that's to me.

Again, Sick, don't make assumptions about my personal comparisons. I like magazine articles like the next guy, but you will NEVER see me mention a magazine article when stating my own opinion about a car. Magazines and I concur on some issues, yet our opinions differ wildly on other things.

Sick, to answer my question, all you had to do was show this list. Now I clearly see why you think the Lexus is the "complete package". And to some extent, looking at this list, I must concur. This is a great list, by the way, good stuff.

Again, one last time, when refererring to my own opinion about a car, don't ever assume my opinion is based upon a magazine review.

It's based upon my own experience with the car. Always.

I like the new GS alot, but it just doesn't feel sporty enough to me to warrant a $60k sport sedan purchase.

But to each his own. I am sure anyone who bought one loves it. And I am glad.

Hec, I didn't like the 2nd Gen GS when it first came out all that much either once I test drove it back in '98, and again in 2001. And now look at me, I own one.

Over time, once prices drop and the market changes, opinions change too.

KevinGS

If you ever driven a new 5 series hard, especially the V8, it's no question this car is still the class leader when it comes to the combination of sport and luxury in regards to performance.

And I still think the 540i Sport from the previous 5 generation was even better. The steering was more precise without feeling "electrical" (the new one has some steering issues, harder to be smooth with abrupt inputs I found). In the old 5, it almost felt like the car was telepathic, guessing what minor directional change you wanted to go in, and then pulling you right through that desired arc seamlessly.

And even with all the sharpness of the handling, the crisp turn in, the flat responses of the car, it STILL soaked up bumps and frost heaves like a champ...coddling its occupants with seclusion from bumps, yet engaging you in your favorite bends and turns as you, the steering, the shifter and the pedals become one.

Really, it was quite remarkable.

Was the car perfect? No, and far from it. Reliability has always plagued the 5, along with expensive repairs and a tight cockpit (in the previous 5) as well.

But when you are out there on your favorite mountain road, just you and the road, there wasn't (and maybe still not) a better stock sedan out there for $50-60k.

The new M has alot of that BMW DNA now, but it still doesn't soak up the bumps like the BMW suspension. Those 19inch rims have a cost, and the spring rates are set pretty high.

And Lexus doesn't even try to compete with that kind of sporting DNA. And I can't fault them for that. They are selling to a different market.

jyg es3

until gs350 comes. I do not need early production car, that has new headlight assemblys I do not have to be Lexus test car owner (. first month of production 1/01/05) . Dealer said they would install 2 new headlight assemblys. Who know if those will work. Enjoy your cars.

LexFather

I see where you are coming from now Kevin

LexusPride

When I went to a RX400H rollout party last week, I once again sat in a new GS. The first thing I noticed is how the roofliner and pillars now use the same crappy hard to the touch covered plastic as the old RX300 did. I know you have to cut some corners when loading up new tech, but its not like Lexus actually LOWERED the price of these things. I mean, my current GS is soft all over, why do this to a $50k+ car?? And the LEDs look cool, but still way too dark when getting in, and oh yeah, when will they be installing a useful trunk in this so-called sedan? In case anybody noticed, the GS series sells nowhere near the 5 or E-class, and maybe even the A6. I still don't see Lexus' name mentioned in the same class of competing cars, even though they may sell well or rate higher in some magazines. I mean, no one looks at the IS when comparing the 3, they now even look to the G35 or TL or A4. The same with the S class, 7 Series or A8, Lexus seems to follow their own path while still trying to keep up. And anyone talking about the GS driving like a Bimmer...stop, really. I'm surprised these things don't come with oars.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

This is a very interesting thread with some great, spirited debate and insightful comments. Thanks to everyone.

Reading the comments about 3GS, Infiniti M, 5 series, E class, etc., is like watching The Bachelor (that I'm currently sucked into watching the final show!) - lots of great choices!

But on a more serious note, the general back and forth about the GS refinement and subtlety, vs. the more 'in your face' of the M, or the performance priority of the 5 series, reminds me of a conversation I just had with a friend.

My friend (he's in Atlanta, I'm now in FL) has an LS400 (around 2000 I think). I've driven his car, it's very very nice as you guys probably know, a paragon of refinement, quiet, and subtlety.

In contrast, my neighbor recently left town for the summer to live in his other home in Pennsylvania, and he left me his (996) Porsche 911 convertible for a couple of days before someone came to pick it up. He said drive it all you like, enjoy. So I did!

I was telling my friend (with the LS400) over the phone that I had a great time driving the Porsche around and he asked "what is it about a Porsche that you like so much?"

It took a bit to put it into words, but I told him that when you drive the Porsche, it feels like you're an integral part of it, and the sounds seem to be in tune with what you want it to do, the loooong wind up in each gear is just so thrilling, but best to me is the steering and handling, when you turn most cars, and certainly any Lexus, there is always an amount of understeer - the car wants to continue to go forward, not around the curve. Now with the coilovers, sways and braces on my 2GS it certainly is transformed in handling from the stock car, and with the other mods it goes fast and sounds great too, but it's still nothing like a Porsche. And I told my friend that one thing I realized about driving the Porsche and a convertible in particular, you don't have to go fast for it to be fun. And then I realized and said but driving a stock Lexus, especially an LS400 like his on the other hand, even at triple digits, is just about boring unless you do it in traffic! The Lexus is so quiet, you barely feel any bumps, you can still carry on a conversation - the music from the CD or radio still sounds good. But it's so detached! It's everything a Cadillac *used* to be and so much more! That is until Cadillac realized its cars were BORING, appealed only to old people, and they HAD to put some excitement back into them.

My friend agreed the Lexus is tranquil, refined, reliable, but unexciting, but he's not looking for excitement at all. He's thrilled with the "library on wheels" as I used to describe the LS400.

Now this is all not to say a Lexus is a bad vehicle at all. Of course it's a WONDERFUL vehicle. When you've had a rough day or even going out to work for example, it's so PEACEFUL, it soothes the nerves and traffic barely matters. Controls fall to hand, and subtle sounds, lights, gear shifts all just work and happen seamlessly. It is SOOTHING.

And can you have 'fun' in a Lexus though? Sure! That's about attitude really. Heck I've had fun thrashing a rental Taurus too, LOL I remember when I was young on a business trip I rented an Olds Delta 88 - huge boat, it was laughably bad at handling but a HOOT to drive stupidly. I could screech the wimpy tires at any light, squeal those suckers on any curve as it leaned more than the tower of Pisa, and I could make that ol' pushrod V8 ROAR if I floored it. But I hardly felt like an integral part of it.

So Lexus is the master of refinement. Their vehicles can be fun to drive too, but I just don't get why they won't come out with a sport package or version of ALL OF THEIR VEHICLES! Even if they didn't sell many, the buzz and excitement they'd generate would be huge. Now I know Lexus claims they don't WANT to sell a ton of vehicles so they're not everywhere, but they're certainly a LONG way from that, or from displacing much of BMW and Mercedes shares especially in upscale and trendy urban parts of th country.

The 'journey' of modifying my GS (a first time for me) definitely has had it's highs and lows and overall has been fun, but I'd rather buy it next time from the factory ready to go, without big wheel gaps, with brakes that don't fade, without heavy body roll. This is what Lexus needs, or there will be segments of the affluent car buying market they just won't interest.

Why did I buy a GS in the first place you may ask? I'd never owned a V8 car before (and love the torque response), I'd never had rear wheel drive (and love that too), and I loved the shape of the 2GS (still do), and I loved all the gadgets on the car. It was love at first sight. But the 3GS just does not do it for me. I saw in the other thread showing the black 2GS and 3GS and can see many style aspects of the 3GS I just don't like, and while some aspects of the interior are nicer than the 2GS, I think that "red wood" looks awful and I don't like the aluminum bezel in the middle either. But yes, it's still a far nicer interior than anything else it competes except maybe for Audi.

Anyway, that's my 5 cents worth on why the 3GS doesn't quite do it for me.

Gojirra99

I' ve driven both the old & new 5 series V8's & agree with everything you say.
Love the old 5, still unsure about the new 5. It's blah exterior design together with the new crappy interior is enough for me not to care about it's performance. Even the new M5 doesn't entice me anymore now that they have the M6 which I would much rather have.

chuckb

an M6 would sure match your current car collection..........

what's the word on how these run?