Gojirra99

Likely fall of 2006 (it's unofficial )

LS4fun

Outside..it definately has a chance...inside though....the M is....

LexFather

All of your 8 posts are here defending Infiniti and trying to put down Lexus. Please go elsewhere if you plan to continue proving no points here.
1. Shoehead ASKED a question, there is no snobbery involved. This is the 3GS forum, he asked a question was this car competitiion, no harm at all.
2. Many people on car forums of course know what cars compete with what but many people do not know what cars compete when its a less popular brand. Infiniti is a brand rising but to the general public, they have very low brand. Hence the new marketing blitz to inform the public about the car(s).
3. We cannot assume people know as much about cars as some of us do.

Shoehead, we have talked about this many times, as jrock stated, you can do a search. The new Infiniti is a worthy competitor to the sales leaders in this class.

speedflex

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Absolutely not true. I'm merely stating a fact. Is the GS NOT made my Toyota? This was in response to a statement that the M was an overpriced Nissan.

In other posts I've simply brought out more accurate info in response to some posters who have made statements which are not true or inaccurate regarding both the GS and the M. NEVER have I put down Lexus. If so please quote me where I have.

I know this is a Lexus forum. But just be accurate in content.

And for the record I think the GS is a fabulous car (I've said so in another post). And to prove my feelings on the matter I think that smug "journalist" who bashes it in the car in the British press is not only totally off-base and ill-mannered in what he wrote... but he didn't even give the car half the chance it deserved. And I will admit that I am more an Infiniti guy than a Lexus guy I cannot troll against it.

His stating that the GS is a counterfiet Mercedes boiled my blood. I have a real problem with the oh-so superior British auto press who think that everyone else in the wrold has the wrong concept of cars and driving. No Mercedes could match even the most basic Lexus or Infiniti for reliability and quality of construction.

All this said I just think that a car like the GS should have its strengths measured against real, not percieved facts.

LexFather

Cool, its fine your a Nissan guy, IMO, it helps keeps a board diverse and adds input from the other perspective. Just remember this is a Lexus forum and as I told Jrock, many/most people don't know every detail about the competiton.

gs430jw

I'm with sick, please leave

Neo

iTrader: (3)

I am not sure why people associate the "overpriced <insert Toyota competing car maker here>" with denial of the Lexus/Toyota relationship. Even when people say "overpriced Toyota", I read it as this individual feels the quality of the Lexus in question is low and is on par with other Toyota offerings. When I say low, I mean not at the perceived "luxury" levels and not that Toyota quality is low.

The three Japanese auto makers all have normal and luxury counterparts. No one denies that. But when the luxury division's offerings is not at luxury level, it is perceived as not worth the extra money. I am not sure about the general public, but on this board, I'd be surprised if the members are so ignorant as to think a Lexus is not ultimately a Toyota.

When someone tells me that a Lexus is an overpriced Toyota, I am somewhat offended that this person and I have different ideas of quality. I would pursue the coversation to find out why they felt this way and potentially just agree to disagree. My retort would not be that his/her car of choice is also made by <insert company here> as that would not really add to the conversation.

Speedflex, I am not really directing this towards you. I've seen this reaction from many others but your post just happened to be nearby so that I can vent this peeve of mine. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the "overpriced Nissan" comment. I just think bringing up the fact that Lexus is a division of Toyota like Infiniti is a division of Nissan does not change the sentiment of the person saying "overpriced Nissan".

speedflex

Fair enough. From my perspective you see Acura, Lexus and Infiniti as either Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans which are more luxurious and more expensive or you see them as a seperate luxury brand from each of thier respective parent companies with thier own distinct identities.

I prefer to think of them as the luxury divisions of each company. I just hate it when people have a double standard. Thus if you say an Acura or Infiniti is an overpriced Nissan or Honda then you must accept that a Lexus is the equilavent Toyota. But I don't see it that way at all because when you buy a Lexus (Acura, or Infiniti for that matter) you're getting a whole buyer/ownership experience which surpasses the Toyota experience. That's a big part of owning a luxury car. It goes further than a car's styling similarites to a more garden variety relative.

It makes sense that there are these divisions here in the states because people who've reached a certain plateau would not pay a certain amount for a Toyota, Honda or Nissan. They need something to move up to unless they're ready to go with an expensive European luxury make. A lot of people who prefer Japanese relabilty don't want to do that so it makes sense that Acura, Lexus and Infiniti exist.

Neo

iTrader: (3)

I agree. I do not like blanket statements about a car or manufacturer. If someone sat in a car, whether it is Lexus, Inifiniti, or Acura, and felt it was not deserving of being in the luxury echelon, then I think it is fair to say it is an overpriced <insert manufacturer here>. I would even be OK with someone with lots of first hand experience with the different cars to see a trend in a particular maufacturer's level of quality. This person might generalize about the direction of such brand and it would be a valid opinion.

I just take offense when comments are made that brand x is an over priced brand y with negative connotations. Of course, x is an overpriced y but is it worth of that extra price. If it is, then brand y should be left alone to stand on its own merits. I see this affliction of generalization people coming onto CL to defend their brand and in part of the CL population too.

Specs-wise, I personally like the M more than the 3GS. I am not in the market for a new car so I have not made it a priority to go and look at the cars in detail and for a drive. I have seen both of them in person on a lot. Until, I have all the info, I refrain from making definitive judgement calls on either car.

After buying my 2GS in 98, I will not buy a first year car again. It is not because there are any problems with my car. I just see improvements and tweaks as the years progress (as is expected). I won' t buy the car until I am ready for one, not because it is the new and cool one to have. Besides, with the newer engines going into the upcoming 3GS, I think the wait will be justified.

LexFather

Well an issue here that people do notice and have noticed and continue to notice is that Toyota has done a much better job seperating and differentiating Lexus from its parent company. Today, the brands continue to seperate, with different managment, studios, the new design language, and with Lexus coming home in 2006 (Japan). To those that are unaware that Lexus is a part of Toyota, it shows how they have done a tremendous job with the branding and creating a true luxury product.

In comparison, the other 2 luxury brands, Acura and Infiniti are just recently making serious contenders as a whole lineup. And they still are not sold in Europe (acura is truly a NA brand only) and as many markets as Lexus (Lexus is badged Toyota in Japan only). And much of it starts with your flagships, Lexus has always had top flagship in the LS and now has 4 cars costing over 60k (GS loaded, LS, SC, LX) as well as more products in the 50k market (those listed before, RX 400h, GS 300 AWD, GX 470). The ES and RX are volume sellers, the IS is in the 30s but they do not dominate the product like the others.

For instance, the TL is considered the best Acura by most, the G35 was considered the best Infiniti (until the brand new M) so this creates a huge image problem. Your lower end and volume cars SHOULD NOT be arguably your best cars.

Lexus has also done the best job of the 3 with the luxury and the interior appointments. The new Rl and M are very good as the TL and TSX but overall, the lineups lack true luxury. Lexus has always had top interiors, the IS the only one where sport and different took a presidence over luxury (and that has changed with the new IS). If you compare any older products, its not even close between Lexus and the other 2 brands (sans the old Legend and Q45).

Finally the Lexus ownership experience is head and shoulders over the rest. Some may come close time to time but overall, Lexus has the highest customer satisfaction and quality since day 1, which is an incredible feat, since the brand has grown 4 fold in sales.

So I do agree and it is a fact, Lexus parent company is Toyota, Acura's parent company is Honda and Infiniti's parent company is Nissan. There is no denying Lexus/Toyota has and is doing a much better job differentiating the brands.

This next question is not directed to you.

What will people say NEXT, since Lexus is now Lexus worldwide starting in 2006? There will be no Toyota badged cars in Japan. In Japan, there is no Acura (nor anywhere else) and there is the NIssan Skyline (G35) and Fuga (m35/45) etc.

speedflex

Toyota has done a spectacular job of marketing and shaping Lexus as a brand. They did not have the crippling handicap Nissan put upon Infiniti with poor initial advertising (trees, rocks, streams) which never showed the cars and which proved to be a miscalculation which stumbled Infiniti for years. The good thing is that Infiniti is finally becoming the company and brand it should have been years ago.

But Lexus has been a text book example of brilliant and effective brand-building and product execution from day one. It only helps that they have Toyota's might and financial resources behind them in order to build the cars they do. Nissan and Infiniti had, for most of the 90s, been very unfocused and image-fuzzy. It's only since Ghosen has taken over that they have a direction. Again, Lexus seemed to know who they were right out of the gate. That consistent image and brand focus has contributed to a strong public image that Lexus is Lexus and Toyota is Toyota.

Acura is probably the weakest of the three Japanese luxury marques because the line between it's and Honda's customers seems to blur with too many low end models like the RSX and TSX. It also doesn't help that they refuse to have a RWD V8 in the lineup.

Infiniti as least does and is gaining credibility in the 50-60K segemnt with the M. The G is important because that car probably kept Infiniti from dissapearing altogether. Lexus did it the way everyone should want to with a successful flagship who's halo trickles down to glow upon everything below it in the lineup.

But when you think about it the 3 series is probably universally seen as the best car in BMW's lineup and that hasn't hurt them. I think Infiniti can use a similar stragety. Take the strengths of the G and apply them across the board.

But whatever happens with Infiniti it doesn't change the fact that Toyota and Lexus are masters of execution. They have an uncanny knack for studying the market and delivering the right product in the right way.

BlkBuzzard

Fantastic!! I whole heartedly agree.

LexusPride

Lexus is different things to different people, I mean, to car enthusiasts the cars lack soul. Lexus is number one in luxury sales but one of the largest markets they swallowed was the 45-70 year-old Cadillac/Lincoln buyers, not necessarily BMW and MB. Look at Toyota, they compete with Honda, yet they have like 9 more models in their lineup, but yet Honda is near the top for sales/quality/satisfaction awards in every category it competes, which is only a handful. I find it funny when I see people post here after specs are released for a new model, knowing deep down they're probably hoping that the HP numbers will finally be on par or better than the competition, but when they're not, they're the first ones defending Lexus about being more than HP numbers, not getting into HP wars, luxury not sport, blah, blah, blah...Yet, when the IS350 is announced, all of a sudden the argument changes, BMW getting its *** kicked, bye bye G35, look out AMG. Then its leaking headlights, but don't complain, other companies are much worse...really? Because last I checked, Lexus wasn't blowing away everyone, actually Infiniti and Acura are right behind, heck even Cadillac. Let's remember something people, the RX makes up a very large chunk of sales, an SUV of all things!! Followed by the ES, an ENTRY LEVEL luxury car! I bought my loaded 2001 GS300 with less than 4k miles on it for $30k, still smelled new. Now that same car will cost me an extra $18k after the same depreciation, and only 20 more HP. I never thought I'd pay over $50k for a GS3, but that's only because BMW and MB are so overpriced, so now Lexus isn't that great a value.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

I give alots of credit to Lexus for working hard to get cars that consumers want. Lexus have created the segments of luxury SUVs, created high reliable cars, differentiated each cars from each other in the line up that are not to similar like Mercedes and the previous generation BMWs, and creating Lexus to be unique and not similar to Toyota Cars like Nissan to do to Infiniti. Lexus created its reputation and now people know that Lexus would be a loyal and a trustworthy name like that when Mercedes was new, so I can foresee Lexus in becoming a company with a heritage like Mercedes in some aspects. Look at the LS sedan, it offered so much amneties that not even some of the generations of mercedes S class offered till much later. Look at the RX 300-300 as well as the RX400H, and seeing what it offered and technology advancement for the money, and creating a new segments that all other competitors cannot even get a decent chunk of. Look at the GS, a mid size sedan that took the world by storm in the 1990s, and has become more refined, sporier in some aspects with bluetooth, DVD base sound systems, and great styling that differentiates itself from the crowd and in my opinion had a great ride of most lexus so far. Looking to the future, Lexus has now understanded that we want perfomance, luxury, reliability, and styling all in one package, thus the upcoming IS sedan, GS hybrid, LS sedan with hybrid will show the world that Lexus is serious and is a very determined company. I have Infinities myself and they drive very nice and more sportier than "some" lexus but they are a similar look at those Nissans, and that annoys me. The old Infiniti QX4 was base off some Nissan Pathfinder, the new Infiniti M35 is a Nissan Fuga rebage. Acura is little late in the game with some ok styling and a small lineup. SO I GIVE LEXUS 2 THUMBS UP!

shoehead

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I couldn't have said anything better.
I agree with every single word posted above.
Props on proving a point so clearly.
I feel that lexus has a legacy of luxurious dependable cars.
When u hear acura or infiniti, it just doesn't have that profound dominate affect as hearing LEXUS does. There is just more "umph" in Lexus that acura or infiniti lacks.
Reading replies to this post made me feel a certain "sensation".