AlwaysLate

Sub-par interior materials, sub-par build quality, lots of noise in the cabin (road, engine, wind), harsh ride.... There honestly isn't anything special about the car that makes you say "wow". Atleast it's gauges could have been made to be a little less similar to the Altima's. When I drive, I constantly glance at the gauges. I don't want to think I'm driving my friends Altima everytime I look down. I'm driving a LUXURY car, I want to feel that way. All that yet still the same price as a comparably equiped Acura RL and G300X. Both the Lexus and the Acura are a notch above the Infiniti when it comes to pure quality IMO. The RL goes through one of the most expensive paint processes for any production car and has an interior that is just amazing, in both looks and quality/feel. The Lexus, well, as stuck-up as it sounds, it's a Lexus. You don't need me to tell you about quality with this car. Now the M, GS and RL are all supposed to be LUXURY cars. With the M, considering the sub-par quality and the cabin noise and harsh ride, it seems like luxury was an after thought and performance was first when Infiniti was designing this car. The M, IMO, would have been a perfect G35. But when I look for a luxury car, I expect it to atleast act like one first before it acts like a sports car. Again, don't forget that these are just my personal opinions.

AJL0365

i agree with u, the place i work at (dodge) had infiniti models come over for clean-ups and such, and we mostly get M's. dont get my wrong, the M is a nice car, but i would never consider buying one. its have a nice thunk when u close the doors, and the powertrain is nice, but whats basically all thats going eith the M, (and all the other infiniti models) the steering wheel is rough, i dont like sliding my hands when turning one because u can feel it to much, with a lexus, its smooth, and i never seen one with a wood & leather steering wheel and shift. the central control center unit (w/e u wanna call it, the screen) its very confusing to use. this is probably the same with all sedans, but the rear window is a b*tch to clean, and when one model comes equipped with the rear seat DVD, its not very good because it up at the ceiling and you're kinda close to it, it need to be in the headrest. i know some of this stuff doesnt really stay on topic, but these are SOME but not all concerns i have about the M from Infiniti. Luxury Sedan designed to outperform, thats basically all it does. Infiniti is a wannabee lexus i think

yaro1

This just humors me that the GS is dead last. Is it really that bad though? It is consistently scorring very poorly in all comparos. It really makes you wonder, what is wrong with this car?

I'm still buying it b/c it is a lexus and Lexus Owns all.

Still, I am sure all of this negative publicity is going to hurt sales because the general public is normally closed minded and trusts the car mags.

However, how are the GS's sales figures? How do they compare to the competition since that is the only TRUE comparison.

Gojirra99

I disagree with you that car mags comparison have a big impact on sales, most real world buyers either don't read them or based their decisions primarily on their own test drives, which usually is the most sensible thing to do.
Just as an example, cars like the A8 or XJR are consistently rated higher than the S class by the mags but don't even come close to S class sales.

Thanx to CL member Incendiary's thread : since the new GS's launch in March, U.S. sales in mid-size lux segment (including wagons in some models):

JUNE 2005
E-class 4205
"5-series" 4183
"STS" 3722
"GS" 3317
"M35/45" 2480
LS 1780
A6 1581
RL 1565
S80 872
S-type 845
9-5 691

MAY 2005
"5-series" 3611
E-class 3569
"STS" 3388
"GS" 3141
"M35/45" 2170
LS 1777
RL 1404
A6 1313
S-type 784
S80 759
9-5 502

APR 2005
"5-series" 4571
E-class 3731
"STS" 3555
"GS" 3198
"M35/45" 2288
LS 1948
A6 1635
RL 1304
S80 838
S-type 798
9-5 597

MAR 2005
"5-series" 3947
E-class 3608
"GS" 3209
"STS" 2973
LS 2595
"M35/45" 2253
A6 1681
RL 1376
S80 1166
S-type 1023
9-5 473

LexusLuver

It's done very well in the comparos.

2nd in automobile mag (GS430)
http://automobilemag.com/reviews/sed...ro/index3.html

3rd in C&D (GS430)
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=7

I think the GS430 was 2nd or 3rd in MT
and also tied the M45 in another issue.

1st in Edmunds (GS430)
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...8/article.html

The GS430 is a superb car, if it weren't for VDIM it would have outright won many of those comparos.

It's the GS300 that is struggling in comparisons done by edmunds and CR. Engine is just too weak, the IS350/GS350 have more sophisticated direct injection technology, with better hp/L ratios. Interior is missing some flair.

Tranny might be just a tad slower to react than BMW or Infiniti's, but that's fine considering it is likely the only car in its class that should run 200k mi problem free.

I doubt magazines have a serious effect on car sales, Lexus doesn't always win the mags over, but customer satisfaction, loyalty, and sales growth are second to none.

Personally I was expecting more from Lexus with the GS, but the new IS does look mighty competent.

DaveJ

I use Consumer Reports auto reviews for their quality/reliability ratings, and not much more. Although I haven't read the review yet, it doesn't sound like quality and reliability were considered when rating the cars. I would not call CR's auto reviewers auto industry experts.

I agree the car mags don't heavily influence buying patterns. For example, as much as Mercedes gets knocked around for poor quality, I know someone who just bought an '05 C320. And she's read a ton of negative articles on Mercedes.

I think the car mags are just another data point, however, it is very surprising CR rated the GS300 so low. I wonder if styling was considered? And as far as power is concerned, I think the GS300 has plenty of power, with excellent gas mileage. I get much more than the CR reported 20mpg.

LexFather

Very very true. Remember, magazines are there to sell magazines. And people like spory cars. You never see a Civic or Corolla on the cover of a car mag. But you'll see a BMW or a Vette on the cover. The M has won or placed very well in every comparison and it hasn't helped sales one bit. As he stated, the Jag and A8 fare well in comparos but the public just doesn't care. The RL has won and placed well in comparisons and sales are down from when the car initially came out.

The fact of the matter is, in this class, most all buyers don't care about slalom times, skidpad and 0-60 in 3 seconds flat. They want prestige, panache, a well built car, luxurious looks, and features. I mean, an Altima and Accord V-6 is faster than all these cars, but it doesn't matter. Its not about that.

DaveJ

1Sicklex, well said. Of course there is the minority that does buy primarily on speeds and feeds, but I'm sure it is the minority. After all, there probably aren't too many bling boy racers that can afford a $50K Lexus, or would even want one.

Also, I just read the CR review. CR does give a check-mark recommendation for the GS300, as well as the M35, RL, and Avalon. Not recommended are the E320, 530i, A6, STS, and Volvo S80.

AlwaysLate

True, but doesn't that go for almost all new cars after it's initial release? Comparing the sale numbers of RL's each month from 1/05-8/05, RL sales have increased almost every month. I believe as more people see RL's on the road and better deals are becoming available, the sales pattern of the RL will probably follow that of the TSX's. Good initial sales with a level drop and then a continuous gradual increase.

LexFather

My assesment of the RL
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ht=acura+sales

The TSX is a cheap, entry below the basement entry level luxury sedan. Of course sales will go up, it costs 25,000, with an Acura badge. Its the womans new theme car in Atlanta. And they only predicted 15,000 sales its first year.

I believe the RL had a high of 1,900 sales in December 2004 and they have not surpassed that yet. If sales go up, I am sure its because you can get them for 5-7k off list with no issues. At the 43k price, damn, that is a great deal!

AlwaysLate

The TSX has a starting price of $27,200. Does that make the new IS250 a cheap, entry below the basement entry luxury sedan since it has a similar base MSRP? If your going to say something so radical about a car, atleast back it up with reasoning. As for the TSX annual sales goal, Acura met it at the 6 month mark. I don't even know why you brought up the TSX because I was merely using it as a possible sales pattern for the RL. 1,967 RL's were sold in December. The car was released in October. Just like most all cars, the hype and sales rush dies down after a couple months of initial release. The RL's died down 3 months after it's initial release. Usually car sales don't get as high as they were once during it's initial release. Hence the term "sales rush." As initial release rush has died down, starting from January, you can see the RL's sales increase each month as more people become aware of the car and better deals are available.

flipside909

Hey I think we're losing focus on this discussion. Let's talk about mid luxury vehicles in the comparo...not what you can get under $30k.

LexFather

Yes. For one, Lexus has always placed well in most every comparo for 15 years. The AWD Gs has placed last twice and the Lexus haters all over the internet are rejoicing. And the market was different back then, when you were last, you were pathetic. Today, when your last, your just not bad, just not what the editors wanted.

OF course we would love to see LExus place #1 or high all the time but after Fifteen years of high finishes, well, it had to happen.

I do wonder if Lexus executives are reading this though? B/C for all they're claiming the GS would re-invent the segment, well the comparisons and reviews have not exactly been heavenly. I really wonder will they offer a sports package or finally a GS 600h or whatever. The other thing is IMAGE, which is something Lexus is trying convince people it can do sporty as well as luxury.

On the other hand, maybe they are satisfied, because ITS A BUSINESS and the GS is selling better than ever even though it is more expensive than ever.

And NO company has any answer to the GS 450h which his coming next year.


Lexus HAS the resources to make a *****-out sedan. But I guess they realize, it sounds great in magazines and to hear people brag "oh my car beat yours by .02 seconds" but most BUYERS don't care.

I don't expect Lexus to be the sportiest and with they comitment to "Zero-nize' things, how could they be? If you want more edge, you can choose others.

Has Lexus released pricing yet?

YOU brought up the TSX

AlwaysLate

Yes, I even mentioned that I brought up the TSX. Did you not read my post?

"I don't even know why you brought up the TSX because I was merely using it as a possible sales pattern for the RL."

So I'm still lost as to why you brought it up with such force and decided to bring it down a level when clearly as a car, the TSX wasn't being compared to anything else. Random.

As for pricing on the IS, the IS250 manual RWD is going to have an MSRP of $27,585. The top-model IS350 is going to have an MSRP of $42,475. So does this make the IS250 a cheap, below the basement entry luxury sedan?

flipside909

Geeze...you must not understand what keep it on topic means.