GS430 failed euro Braketest!!!!
11-03-05, 04:42 AM
#46
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65 MPH, car pulls out in front of me, nailed the brakes, stopped short of the car without a scratch, sit back and think to myself, "What a great set of breaks"
Now if I any plan on taking my 58K Lexus and beating the crap out of it I might have a different opinion, but for now my breaks saved my life!!!! Thank you Lexus!!!!
Now if I any plan on taking my 58K Lexus and beating the crap out of it I might have a different opinion, but for now my breaks saved my life!!!! Thank you Lexus!!!!
11-04-05, 09:42 AM
#48
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GS430 rather than GS300 was put into this test because of the knowledge that brakes do fade away faster. It even says in the GS manual.
I am pretty much sure that if the order of the tests was different result would be too. Also for every car that was in the test there are ways to burn their brakes down as long as you know the weaknesses.
This test doesn't really prove anything that hasn't been said out loud yet and that means the owners of GS430 have to take their cars to brake service a little more often than the others.
I am willing to bet all my cars that if Ferrari Modena was in this test too its breaks would also fade out as bad as GS430.
I am pretty much sure that if the order of the tests was different result would be too. Also for every car that was in the test there are ways to burn their brakes down as long as you know the weaknesses.
This test doesn't really prove anything that hasn't been said out loud yet and that means the owners of GS430 have to take their cars to brake service a little more often than the others.
I am willing to bet all my cars that if Ferrari Modena was in this test too its breaks would also fade out as bad as GS430.
11-04-05, 05:11 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Vladi
GS430 rather than GS300 was put into this test because of the knowledge that brakes do fade away faster. It even says in the GS manual.
I am pretty much sure that if the order of the tests was different result would be too. Also for every car that was in the test there are ways to burn their brakes down as long as you know the weaknesses.
This test doesn't really prove anything that hasn't been said out loud yet and that means the owners of GS430 have to take their cars to brake service a little more often than the others.
I am willing to bet all my cars that if Ferrari Modena was in this test too its breaks would also fade out as bad as GS430.
I am pretty much sure that if the order of the tests was different result would be too. Also for every car that was in the test there are ways to burn their brakes down as long as you know the weaknesses.
This test doesn't really prove anything that hasn't been said out loud yet and that means the owners of GS430 have to take their cars to brake service a little more often than the others.
I am willing to bet all my cars that if Ferrari Modena was in this test too its breaks would also fade out as bad as GS430.
The brake pad compound of a Ferrari is totally different than that of a Lexus. Lexus is focusing on comfort, less dust and low noise. Ferrari is on performance.
Note that all performance pads will contain metallic parts to assure stopping power and reliability, so all performance parts will be dusty and make noise.
11-04-05, 05:43 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by HKGS300
Lexus is focusing on comfort, less dust and low noise. Ferrari is on performance. Note that all performance pads will contain metallic parts to assure stopping power and reliability, so all performance parts will be dusty and make noise.
11-04-05, 05:51 PM
#51
Originally Posted by Richie
Wouldn't info like this be passed to all countries?
Give me a break, german magazines are known for their support for their manufacturers. Dacia logan failed the "elk" test earlier this year in Germany in major mag - apperantly it was selling too fast. Month later they found out that magazine tested it with spare tire!
I just read an comparison in Autobild where RX400h was beaten by Jeep GC and ML350. Apperantly it lost 100 points (15%-20% of total score) on off road track and got only 4 points more on cunsumption (which was 60% BETTER in city drive than ML), it even lots points in engine department although it beat ML in every single performance test. Difference in quality between GC and RX was judged to be 0.8% of total points.
When it comes to German media, I have 0 trust in their reporting. GS might have brakes that fail after 5 miles, but until we see it somewhere else, I wont trust germans. The fact that so many mags tested GS on the track (including german) and nobody said anything so far, makes it seem like an non issue.
11-04-05, 06:14 PM
#52
Stoptech has an excellent article on the difference of repeated high speed braking and cold stopping. I quoted a few excerpts that are related the German test. You may think most people never drive the GS in these harsh racing conditions, but I would be concerned if one lives a hilly area and drives normally, when any car needs to convert kinetic energy and potential energy combined repeatedly.
"While almost every current passenger car is capable of a single stop from maximum speed at or near the limit of tire adhesion, the braking systems of most passenger vehicles and light trucks and some sports cars are not adequate for hard or sport driving or for towing. Most stock brake systems lack sufficient thermal capacity - the syst***s ability to absorb and transfer heat by conduction, convection and radiation into the air or surrounding structure during severe driving. In addition many stock calipers and their mountings are structurally not stiff enough at higher line pressures and the resultant higher clamping loads. That is why even though there is enough front brake torque to lock the front wheels at highway legal speeds, caliper flex at the increased system pressure required to stop the car from high speed may prevent wheel lock up. Needless to say, most OEM brake pads are also not designed for severe use, since cold stopping performance and quiet operation typically are considered more important to new car buyers.
Several factors should be considered in the selection of high performance aftermarket braking systems. Some have to do with performance and safety, some with ease of installation and some with cost. The object is to select the system that will reliably fulfill your long-term needs with the least trouble and the least cost.
There are a few basic facts that must always be kept in mind when discussing brake systems:
1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.
2) The brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the car into thermal energy during deceleration - producing heat, lots of heat - which must then be transferred into the surroundings and into the air stream.
The amount of heat produced in context with a brake system needs to be considered with reference to time meaning rate of work done or power. Looking at only one side of a front brake assembly, the rate of work done by stopping a 3500-pound car traveling at 100 Mph in eight seconds is 30,600 calories/sec or 437,100 BTU/hr or is equivalent to 128 kW or 172 Hp. The disc dissipates approximately 80% of this energy. The ratio of heat transfer among the three mechanisms is dependent on the operating temperature of the system. The primary difference being the increasing contribution of radiation as the temperature of the disc rises. The contribution of the conductive mechanism is also dependent on the mass of the disc and the attachment designs, with disc used for racecars being typically lower in mass and fixed by mechanism that are restrictive to conduction. At 1000oF the ratios on a racing 2-piece annular disc design are 10% conductive, 45% convective, 45% radiation. Similarly on a high performance street one-piece design, the ratios are 25% conductive, 25% convective, 50% radiation.
3) Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.
4) Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.
5) Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized."
"AIR COOLING
Most of the enormous amounts of heat generated during deceleration must be dissipated into the free air stream.
Most high performance (and/or heavy) cars today use some variation of the "ventilated" brake disc in which air entering the center or "eye" of the rotor is forced through the interior of the rotor by the pumping action of the rotating assembly. The most efficient practical way yet devised to accomplish this is through the use of the "curved vane" ventilated brake rotor originally designed for the LeMans winning Ford GT 40s in 1966. In this design the interior vanes are curved to form an efficient pump impeller. They also stabilize the rotor from distortion and serve as very effective barriers to stop the propagation of cracks due to thermal stress. In laboratory testing STOPTECH's innovative design developments in the 48 vane rotors have increased air flow through the rotor by an astounding 61% over some OEM rotors and from 10-15% over racing rotors of the same size. This results in a cost effective but very stable direct replacement rotor that runs typically 15% cooler than stock and 7% cooler than racing designs."
"While almost every current passenger car is capable of a single stop from maximum speed at or near the limit of tire adhesion, the braking systems of most passenger vehicles and light trucks and some sports cars are not adequate for hard or sport driving or for towing. Most stock brake systems lack sufficient thermal capacity - the syst***s ability to absorb and transfer heat by conduction, convection and radiation into the air or surrounding structure during severe driving. In addition many stock calipers and their mountings are structurally not stiff enough at higher line pressures and the resultant higher clamping loads. That is why even though there is enough front brake torque to lock the front wheels at highway legal speeds, caliper flex at the increased system pressure required to stop the car from high speed may prevent wheel lock up. Needless to say, most OEM brake pads are also not designed for severe use, since cold stopping performance and quiet operation typically are considered more important to new car buyers.
Several factors should be considered in the selection of high performance aftermarket braking systems. Some have to do with performance and safety, some with ease of installation and some with cost. The object is to select the system that will reliably fulfill your long-term needs with the least trouble and the least cost.
There are a few basic facts that must always be kept in mind when discussing brake systems:
1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.
2) The brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the car into thermal energy during deceleration - producing heat, lots of heat - which must then be transferred into the surroundings and into the air stream.
The amount of heat produced in context with a brake system needs to be considered with reference to time meaning rate of work done or power. Looking at only one side of a front brake assembly, the rate of work done by stopping a 3500-pound car traveling at 100 Mph in eight seconds is 30,600 calories/sec or 437,100 BTU/hr or is equivalent to 128 kW or 172 Hp. The disc dissipates approximately 80% of this energy. The ratio of heat transfer among the three mechanisms is dependent on the operating temperature of the system. The primary difference being the increasing contribution of radiation as the temperature of the disc rises. The contribution of the conductive mechanism is also dependent on the mass of the disc and the attachment designs, with disc used for racecars being typically lower in mass and fixed by mechanism that are restrictive to conduction. At 1000oF the ratios on a racing 2-piece annular disc design are 10% conductive, 45% convective, 45% radiation. Similarly on a high performance street one-piece design, the ratios are 25% conductive, 25% convective, 50% radiation.
3) Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.
4) Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.
5) Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized."
"AIR COOLING
Most of the enormous amounts of heat generated during deceleration must be dissipated into the free air stream.
Most high performance (and/or heavy) cars today use some variation of the "ventilated" brake disc in which air entering the center or "eye" of the rotor is forced through the interior of the rotor by the pumping action of the rotating assembly. The most efficient practical way yet devised to accomplish this is through the use of the "curved vane" ventilated brake rotor originally designed for the LeMans winning Ford GT 40s in 1966. In this design the interior vanes are curved to form an efficient pump impeller. They also stabilize the rotor from distortion and serve as very effective barriers to stop the propagation of cracks due to thermal stress. In laboratory testing STOPTECH's innovative design developments in the 48 vane rotors have increased air flow through the rotor by an astounding 61% over some OEM rotors and from 10-15% over racing rotors of the same size. This results in a cost effective but very stable direct replacement rotor that runs typically 15% cooler than stock and 7% cooler than racing designs."
11-05-05, 08:11 AM
#53
Pole Position
Originally Posted by HKGS300
I am not convinced that Ferrari will face the same problem.
The brake pad compound of a Ferrari is totally different than that of a Lexus. Lexus is focusing on comfort, less dust and low noise. Ferrari is on performance.
Note that all performance pads will contain metallic parts to assure stopping power and reliability, so all performance parts will be dusty and make noise.
The brake pad compound of a Ferrari is totally different than that of a Lexus. Lexus is focusing on comfort, less dust and low noise. Ferrari is on performance.
Note that all performance pads will contain metallic parts to assure stopping power and reliability, so all performance parts will be dusty and make noise.
Someone above mentioned German magazines. Coming from Europe I can say that German car magazines are the most biased ones you can find, they even surpass the English. I do read them but I don't buy them. The crap they put out is funny as hell, like Audi TT beating 350Z and S2000 ... You get the picture.
The best non-biased mags are American. Trust me on that one.
11-05-05, 08:19 AM
#54
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by Vladi
The best non-biased mags are American. Trust me on that one.
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