chiawei

1. Powertrain? How is BMW inferior? I don't see a V10 with over 500HP from lexus or toyota. I don't see BMW having issues with its 6 speed automatic as toyota is having with the camry.

2. Ergonomics?? I guess your comment is like god statment and must be true. Lexus certainly has ergonomics issue. The easiest example is the damn seats.

3. Navigation?? Last time I check BMW already has RTTI incorporated not lexus. Lexus navigation data base is much better than BMW. Search function is better. Voice input BMW and Infiniti are better than Lexus.

Wash at best. Yes. I do have all 4 system currently in my garage in the W211 command, Infiniti M45, Sienna with upgraded 2007 navi, and BMW I-drive. So i do have intimate knowledge on the navigation system.

4. Horror story? Hmm. Yes, i was recently left strained on the side of road when my SAS and SMG hydraulic failed on the M5. But you take the risk of buying the 1st year M car. Would i appreciate better reliability, sure. But will I sacrifice fun for slightly better reliability, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

For appliance duty, my van does a fine job transporting me and family around.

doug_999

Get a life spwolf - and while you are at it, do a little research. In fact, do just a hint of research before you make posts like this that do nothing but make you look silly.

RandalR

I don't think BMW lags Lexus technologically in any way - it's the $20,000 upcharge for that little blue-and-white badge that bugs me.

Irishman06

Looking back, I think this is exactly what Lexus/Toyota wants the auto industry to be like. Part of "The Toyota Way" is their whole continuous improvement and (if you've been around a dealer enough, you've heard the term) kaizen. In pushing this sort of stuff, they love competition from outside. Last summer, during all the "employee pricing" deals, toyota raised prices $500 pretty much across the board to try and jump-start the American car companies. They'd love for you to buy a 5-series because you think it has superior technology, or you're big on bmw's suspension/chassis, or you bought the mercedes for whatever reason it is people buy mercedes. It gives them something to benchmark for where their cars need to be, and eventually, they'll get there.

Mr. Jones

Actually the LX470 had active steering before BMW.

As far as seats are concerned, my friend refuses to drive his 5er because of how rock solid its seats are. I've driven/riden in it many times and agree.

The only way BMW seats are comfortable, is if you have extra padding around the *** region.

Mr. Jones

I don't see any BMW's running 900hp through stock trannies, differentials, and engines.
I don't see BMW with a V8 that gets 380hp, and 19/27mpg.

I don't see BMW with a 8spd auto either.

Does a Sienna adequately represent Lexus Navigation?

The SMG has been failing for years now. This is nothing new, don't pass this off as a 1st year model issue. Sacrifice reliablity for fun all you'd like, Porsche/Corvette owners aren't and they are having plenty of fun. Much more fun than a 4000lb M5 cannot match.

lol

Mr. Jones

You do realize a chassis includes the body structure, suspension, and steering.

Mr. Jones

How about reliability survey's where Lexus consistently ranks on top.

My friend's later MY BMW has had the HID ballasts fail multiple times and suspesnion components required replacing. The cheap wood veneer is bubbling and the grain is completely mismatched.

I still see tons of LS400's on the road, where the BMW's at, junkyard with failed motors and trannies?

Japan particularily Toyota are leaders in manufacturing for large scale consumer goods. Ever here of JIT...Toyota invented it, and BMW now uses it. Of course they have poorly implemented it. Toyota is known to have "perfected manufacturing." This is partly why Toyota's are cheaper, more reliable and see such high growth rates.

Boeing certainly doesn't look to 2nd rate German suppliers for their latest 787, that's right they heavily rely on Japanese manufactures for parts cost cutting and reliable on-time supplies.

Maybe one day Europeans will get industrial engineering which gives them flexibility, low costs, and reliablity.

btw ever wonder why you can't get semi-alanine leather in the 7er.

Mr. Jones

where is backup camera or night vission on the Sclass?
not available.

CrazyMPG

iTrader: (4)

heh it's getting a lil crazy in this thread...lol...i mean all cars have their pluses and minuses...so just leave it at that...i mean i have driven bmw's, lexus's, benz's...and i like what all cars have to offer...but right now i am in the phase of not wasting too much gas...so that's why i am going with lexus...i mean my bmw b4 got 17mpg...and i hated it because it seemed like i had to find a gas station all the time....but i will miss the handling...i will eventually get a bmw in addition to a lexus when the time is right...heh...or maybe i'll skip bmw and go to a porche!!! the 911's baby!!!

Panerai127

I will put my two cents here.. I own 01 GS430 with 100k miles. Its a nice car, looks good, drives smooth, but.. The fit and finish of it is not even close to BMW or MB. I know they started making this car probably in 95-96 so it will be ready for production in 98 and was unchanged untill just a few years ago.. But if you take 540i for example and see the fit and finish on that car, it is like night and day. My doors make squicking sound when i make a right turn so my left leg presses on the door and the plastic on it is not tight enough, so it makes this cheap squicking sound, I hate it.. It is built inside like a Toyota and uses many parts that Avalon has. When you close BMW door, it has this rich heavy metal sound to it, like it is solid, Lexus is , well very soft. The quility of material used inside the car: plastics, wood, *****, leather, seats is not even close to BMW or MB same year. When you inside BMW, you feel everything is built so well and finished so precisely. The motor on the car is great and so quiet and smooth, no complaints there. The tranny is good too, not as crisp or fun like bmw, but better then MB E500 I drove, which is 2003 model and 98 model, like my GS. I am very disappointed in drivetrain and tranny in MB car, unless you go to S, SL or CL class, thats where it shines. Lexus GS suspension, steering response, and ride is horrible and I do not know what they were thinking when they put this car on the road, at times it felt unsafe to drive and felt like a big boat on the road, I think they put too much time into making the car too smooth and boat like ride, I don't know?! My girlfriend's IS300, is such a great car to drive and it feels more like a bimmer, steering response, and handling, but inside is not near match with 2003 3 series fit and finish.. She loves it.. The NAV that is an option I do not have on my car is great and the best in class along with TL nav I have in my relatives car, which is not in samke class as the GS but worth mentioning. Touch screen is great and very easy to use. MB and BMW is not user friendly and not touch screen. Look at my sig and see what I did with my suspension and steering to improve it, it got alot better but still not even close to BMW steering feel and light nimble road feel. I was thinking of getting Daizen sways, but I do not think I would achieve what I want out of the car, and I am selling it now and going back to BMW. I had 2000 323i and I loved that car and loved driving it, eventhough it was not as powerful or fast as my GS, but it was so much fun to drive, and the way it was built it was so solid and there were no rattles or squicks as my GS has, and i sold it with 100k miles too. But I was one of the unlucky ones with no warranty and my tranny failed and set me back $2500 to change it by my friend mech who found one with 20k mileso on junk yard. Window regulator was changed =$200, door weather seals= $350, nothing else I had to change or service including breaks, timing belt(not one to change), rotors, spark plugs or suspension components. But now look at what I had to change on my GS with same miles (I don't know if my car was abused or not, but almost all my problems were the same problems people on CL have on their cars):

3 door lock actuators, changed = $500
rack and pinion = $450
rack joints=$300
ball joints, tie rods= $400
Tein CS coilovers= $1200 (but could have replaced it with oem shocks for less)
CD player $150
timing belt and water pump and sparl plugs= $1100
Total: =$3800 approx.
I need breaks now too.

Again both cars might have been driven different prior me. But this is my experience. I am thinking of just biting the bullet and getting 2003 M3..

chiawei

BMW beat LX470 to the market.

???

As far as seats goes. I have made it very clear. BMW seats although hard initially are very supportive and comfortable for longer drive.

All lexus/Toyota seats I had are terrbile for long term drive as the cushion sinks too much and provide no padding support was so ever. That's why I hated driving my VAN down to LA from bay area. Because my rear are extremely sore after long trip.

chiawei

1. How much does LS weigh? Fuel consumption is not only based on engine output, it is also based on vehicle weight.

LS weighs 4244. While the the 7 series weighs 4486.

2. I seriously see any Toyota runs at 900HP on stock trannies, differentials, and engines. I would like to see example of that.

The most relevant question would be, do you really need a 8 speed automatic. Does Lexus's 8 speed give LS advantage over the competition? Last time i check, the LS460's 0-60 was at a mere 6.0 by car and driver. The top speed is limited to 130mph. Why do you need a 8 speed?

Again, marketing gimmick over real need. Take M5 for example. It has 7 forward gear ratio. Removing the governor. M5 reached top speed over 200 MPH at 6th gear. Not only that, M5 gearing was so close that its acceleration from 100 to 150 is excellent.

Why can M5 offer such a performance without any decay at high end speed with only 7 gear ratio? Do you really need 8 speed?

Actually the 06 Sienna navigation system is a generation newer than the 06 GS and is on the platform as the new LS navigation. So it actually is based on newer platform.

Sienna went through 3 navigation system change since 04 introduction. The one i currently have is the latest version which is newer than both IS and GS. (Not sure about 07 IS or GS, if their system has been upgraded).

SMG has been failing????
Where did you get that idea?
SMG actually has never failed until SMGIII arrived with the M5.

Show me a porsche and corvette that carries 4 and does what M5 does on the track.

BTW, the C06 Corvette is a great car but it is not as stable when approaching its limit. M5 on the other hand are much more stable when pushed to the limit. Corvette is more fun to drive. But it's different type of car. Which is something that I don't think you get either.

chiawei

So wrong.

1. You do realize that both BMW and Lexus actually used same suppliers for HID and ballast. Why don't you check it out and get back to me on that?

2. I see plenty of old E28 around as well. Not to mention the E34, E30.... Again, you are generalizing. The fact of matter is that I probably see more old BMW around in my area than I do of old lexus.

3. JIT and whole TQM model are not invented by Toyota but by American. Toyota was the 1st to adapt this concept. Don't try to start on this subject as this was my field of concernration when I got my MBA along with my Master in EE.

4. Toyota perfected manufacturing? I guess Toyota must have done a great job as last two years has been disaster for Toyota from quality point of view. You do know that Quality is designed in via good engineering and manufacturing process. The fact of matter is that the last two years is where Toyota's once proud manufacturing system has failed miserably.

5. You are really behind supply chain issues. BMW probably has one of the best flexibility of all auto manufacturer. I don't see toyota does anything with individual program. Have you actually look at BMW's line in dingolfing or Rosenburg? Have you actually see the Toyota line at Fremont. (I actually had the luck to visit all three places).

Don't talk smack until you really look into both company. Do you really know the true meaning of JIT? Do you really know what is JIT? Don't give me textbook answer. Why don't you ask someone that work in this field and give you the truth about JIT.

doug_999

Tell you what - why don't you learn a little more about BMW and their incredible production capabilities before you write stuff that makes you look silly. Here's some reading for you - report back with your thoughts if you like.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...ndex+page_news

BTW, when you are done reading - how about researching the suppliers for the 787 as well. Here's a start (and there are lots of German companies there)

http://speednews.com/lists/787_Suppliers.html