GS compared to ES
09-16-07, 11:06 PM
#16
I did the compairson because I had to drive as the loaner the ES and was impressed on how much it was like a GS.
The buttons on the ES is better on the steering wheel than that on the GS if you ask me. The ES wrapped a rubber over over all the buttons and labeled it. Feels better than the buttons on the GS wheel.
The buttons on the ES is better on the steering wheel than that on the GS if you ask me. The ES wrapped a rubber over over all the buttons and labeled it. Feels better than the buttons on the GS wheel.
09-16-07, 11:34 PM
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I did the compairson because I had to drive as the loaner the ES and was impressed on how much it was like a GS.
The buttons on the ES is better on the steering wheel than that on the GS if you ask me. The ES wrapped a rubber over over all the buttons and labeled it. Feels better than the buttons on the GS wheel.
The buttons on the ES is better on the steering wheel than that on the GS if you ask me. The ES wrapped a rubber over over all the buttons and labeled it. Feels better than the buttons on the GS wheel.
Last edited by savon; 09-16-07 at 11:39 PM.
09-17-07, 07:17 AM
#18
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I dont know why some people always want to imply that they are smarter than others. It reminds me of kindergarden kids. This is a old news saying that ES is noth worth the money because it is similar to camry. Driving a loaner car for couple of hours doesnt make you an expert about the car. unlike you, I own both ES and camry. It is true that they have both the same engine and transmission but ES has softer ride, less cabin noise (even less than previous ES models), better qality materials and all the bells and whistles that your GS has ( I have UL model which I bought for 40k). Can you tell me except for the different feel ride and accelaration what else GS has that is worth 10K more than my car. I gaurantee you none (go to lexus.com and compare). It has same leather, mark levinson, same carpet and dash materials. These are things that we see, I am sure they share a lot of components that are not visible to our eyes.To me 10k more is not worth couple of more HP, besides the fact that I dont like sports car at this age. If I ever wanted to drive a luxury sports car I would drive one that comes with a stick shift not automatic, and If I want a pick up a brand I will go with BMW. It is a brand that I am not a big fan of. But the fact is, they build true sports car unlike japanese made imitatation. So gentlemen, If you like sports car and want to spend 50,60, 70 or 80k for a car because you can afford it, good for you but please dont make ignorant comments or imply that people who buy ES or bought it for last 17 -18 years are stupid. People have differnent needs and look at their pockets before making a decision. I am sure some of you would dream driving a porsche 911 or BMW-6series or mercedes s55, but all you could afford was a GS.
09-17-07, 10:15 AM
#20
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@ savon: I think you took this original post a little too close to your heart. This is a personal review based on someone's personal opinion. Of course it was biased toward GS, and therefore it was posted in GS forum 
Nobody calls anyone stupid for buying one verses the other car. This is just an opinion of one person, even so the comparison is apples and oranges. I can add my *biased* opinion to that too 
I was excited earlier last year when made my decision to buy my first Lexus and chose to get ES350. After 2 failed trannies (with that infamous 3rd/4th flare), Lexus bought back my car, and my dealership (HUGE props to Ray Catena) did the right thing and put me into AWD GS350 (premium package, but without NAV/ML) for a very nice price below invoice. Since I paid cash originally for my ES, I ended up paying a difference of $5k plus a pocket change. Now, what did I get for additional $5k? RWD performance (70/30 split) with AWD versatility which kicked **** last winter. I got a much better handling with a little stiffer ride where I can actually feel the road instead of floating along; a steering which is more responsive and connected; a basic audio system (remember, no NAV or ML) with a full Touch Screen that I would of got only with NAV in ES. Same engine? A few extra hps? There is a big step up from 272hp w/254@4700 ft-lb to 303hp w/274@3600 ft-lb. Is all this worth additional $5k to step up from ES350 to GS350? Hell yeah!!! I don't know why everyone also brings up $10k difference, maybe at a high level when you want NAV/ML and UL. At a basic level (still with most of the hi-tech stuff anyway), the difference really shrinks up.
I think for anybody who is deciding between these two cars, it’s really up to soft luxury and more interior room versus sportier handling and better performance. Oh, and personally I do not dream about driving other cars which will cost me twice as much as my 3GS. Those cars are more of a "status" autos for those who can afford them, IMHO. BTW, our good old friend 2thfxr has them all in his garage, and still prefers his 3GS!!!
Nobody calls anyone stupid for buying one verses the other car. This is just an opinion of one person, even so the comparison is apples and oranges. I can add my *biased* opinion to that too I was excited earlier last year when made my decision to buy my first Lexus and chose to get ES350. After 2 failed trannies (with that infamous 3rd/4th flare), Lexus bought back my car, and my dealership (HUGE props to Ray Catena) did the right thing and put me into AWD GS350 (premium package, but without NAV/ML) for a very nice price below invoice. Since I paid cash originally for my ES, I ended up paying a difference of $5k plus a pocket change. Now, what did I get for additional $5k? RWD performance (70/30 split) with AWD versatility which kicked **** last winter. I got a much better handling with a little stiffer ride where I can actually feel the road instead of floating along; a steering which is more responsive and connected; a basic audio system (remember, no NAV or ML) with a full Touch Screen that I would of got only with NAV in ES. Same engine? A few extra hps? There is a big step up from 272hp w/254@4700 ft-lb to 303hp w/274@3600 ft-lb. Is all this worth additional $5k to step up from ES350 to GS350? Hell yeah!!! I don't know why everyone also brings up $10k difference, maybe at a high level when you want NAV/ML and UL. At a basic level (still with most of the hi-tech stuff anyway), the difference really shrinks up.
I think for anybody who is deciding between these two cars, it’s really up to soft luxury and more interior room versus sportier handling and better performance. Oh, and personally I do not dream about driving other cars which will cost me twice as much as my 3GS. Those cars are more of a "status" autos for those who can afford them, IMHO. BTW, our good old friend 2thfxr has them all in his garage, and still prefers his 3GS!!!
09-17-07, 10:18 AM
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I am sure some of you would dream driving a porsche 911 or BMW-6series or mercedes s55, but all you could afford was a GS.
As far as the $10K difference between the GS and ES... I would like to share a little store. Before my GS I owned a GMC Yukon. I really wanted the Yukon Denali but felt paying $10K more for it wasn't worth it since the regular Yukon had tons of options. Well, as time went on I wished I would have paid the $10K for the denali. The subtle differences between the two were more important to me then I originally thought.
My point is that yes the ES may be similar (feature wise) to the GS but it is not a GS. A Camry is very similar to the ES but it is not a Lexus.
09-17-07, 02:58 PM
#22
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Wow, you just described me. I inititally wanted to buy a BMW 6 series but I can't afford the $80K price tag so I looked at other cars. I test drove the GS and loved it. It has way more features then the 6 series at almost half the price.
As far as the $10K difference between the GS and ES... I would like to share a little store. Before my GS I owned a GMC Yukon. I really wanted the Yukon Denali but felt paying $10K more for it wasn't worth it since the regular Yukon had tons of options. Well, as time went on I wished I would have paid the $10K for the denali. The subtle differences between the two were more important to me then I originally thought.
My point is that yes the ES may be similar (feature wise) to the GS but it is not a GS. A Camry is very similar to the ES but it is not a Lexus.
As far as the $10K difference between the GS and ES... I would like to share a little store. Before my GS I owned a GMC Yukon. I really wanted the Yukon Denali but felt paying $10K more for it wasn't worth it since the regular Yukon had tons of options. Well, as time went on I wished I would have paid the $10K for the denali. The subtle differences between the two were more important to me then I originally thought.
My point is that yes the ES may be similar (feature wise) to the GS but it is not a GS. A Camry is very similar to the ES but it is not a Lexus.
Whats funny is there is a cheaper 635 6-cylinder sold in Europe we don't get to protect the German image. I am sure if they brought them over, they would sell.
09-17-07, 04:46 PM
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I dont know why some people always want to imply that they are smarter than others. It reminds me of kindergarden kids. This is a old news saying that ES is noth worth the money because it is similar to camry. Driving a loaner car for couple of hours doesnt make you an expert about the car. unlike you, I own both ES and camry. It is true that they have both the same engine and transmission but ES has softer ride, less cabin noise (even less than previous ES models), better qality materials and all the bells and whistles that your GS has ( I have UL model which I bought for 40k). Can you tell me except for the different feel ride and accelaration what else GS has that is worth 10K more than my car. I gaurantee you none (go to lexus.com and compare). It has same leather, mark levinson, same carpet and dash materials. These are things that we see, I am sure they share a lot of components that are not visible to our eyes.To me 10k more is not worth couple of more HP, besides the fact that I dont like sports car at this age. If I ever wanted to drive a luxury sports car I would drive one that comes with a stick shift not automatic, and If I want a pick up a brand I will go with BMW. It is a brand that I am not a big fan of. But the fact is, they build true sports car unlike japanese made imitatation. So gentlemen, If you like sports car and want to spend 50,60, 70 or 80k for a car because you can afford it, good for you but please dont make ignorant comments or imply that people who buy ES or bought it for last 17 -18 years are stupid. People have differnent needs and look at their pockets before making a decision. I am sure some of you would dream driving a porsche 911 or BMW-6series or mercedes s55, but all you could afford was a GS.
09-17-07, 05:55 PM
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Nicely put Twister
@ savon: I think you took this original post a little too close to your heart. This is a personal review based on someone's personal opinion. Of course it was biased toward GS, and therefore it was posted in GS forum Nobody calls anyone stupid for buying one verses the other car. This is just an opinion of one person, even so the comparison is apples and oranges. I can add my *biased* opinion to that too
I was excited earlier last year when made my decision to buy my first Lexus and chose to get ES350. After 2 failed trannies (with that infamous 3rd/4th flare), Lexus bought back my car, and my dealership (HUGE props to Ray Catena) did the right thing and put me into AWD GS350 (premium package, but without NAV/ML) for a very nice price below invoice. Since I paid cash originally for my ES, I ended up paying a difference of $5k plus a pocket change. Now, what did I get for additional $5k? RWD performance (70/30 split) with AWD versatility which kicked **** last winter. I got a much better handling with a little stiffer ride where I can actually feel the road instead of floating along; a steering which is more responsive and connected; a basic audio system (remember, no NAV or ML) with a full Touch Screen that I would of got only with NAV in ES. Same engine? A few extra hps? There is a big step up from 272hp w/254@4700 ft-lb to 303hp w/274@3600 ft-lb. Is all this worth additional $5k to step up from ES350 to GS350? Hell yeah!!! I don't know why everyone also brings up $10k difference, maybe at a high level when you want NAV/ML and UL. At a basic level (still with most of the hi-tech stuff anyway), the difference really shrinks up.
I think for anybody who is deciding between these two cars, it’s really up to soft luxury and more interior room versus sportier handling and better performance. Oh, and personally I do not dream about driving other cars which will cost me twice as much as my 3GS. Those cars are more of a "status" autos for those who can afford them, IMHO. BTW, our good old friend 2thfxr has them all in his garage, and still prefers his 3GS!!!
Nobody calls anyone stupid for buying one verses the other car. This is just an opinion of one person, even so the comparison is apples and oranges. I can add my *biased* opinion to that too I was excited earlier last year when made my decision to buy my first Lexus and chose to get ES350. After 2 failed trannies (with that infamous 3rd/4th flare), Lexus bought back my car, and my dealership (HUGE props to Ray Catena) did the right thing and put me into AWD GS350 (premium package, but without NAV/ML) for a very nice price below invoice. Since I paid cash originally for my ES, I ended up paying a difference of $5k plus a pocket change. Now, what did I get for additional $5k? RWD performance (70/30 split) with AWD versatility which kicked **** last winter. I got a much better handling with a little stiffer ride where I can actually feel the road instead of floating along; a steering which is more responsive and connected; a basic audio system (remember, no NAV or ML) with a full Touch Screen that I would of got only with NAV in ES. Same engine? A few extra hps? There is a big step up from 272hp w/254@4700 ft-lb to 303hp w/274@3600 ft-lb. Is all this worth additional $5k to step up from ES350 to GS350? Hell yeah!!! I don't know why everyone also brings up $10k difference, maybe at a high level when you want NAV/ML and UL. At a basic level (still with most of the hi-tech stuff anyway), the difference really shrinks up.
I think for anybody who is deciding between these two cars, it’s really up to soft luxury and more interior room versus sportier handling and better performance. Oh, and personally I do not dream about driving other cars which will cost me twice as much as my 3GS. Those cars are more of a "status" autos for those who can afford them, IMHO. BTW, our good old friend 2thfxr has them all in his garage, and still prefers his 3GS!!!
My post was prefaced saying I'm comparing these cars only because they seem similar on paper but with a big price differential. But many people do compare the 2 so I wanted to give my impressions for those people.
I drove an ES for 2 weeks, not 2 hours and was glad to get my GS back. Yes the ES is a nice comfortable car but since Savon you've gone into the psychology of people who buy the GS, I think the ES reveals much more about the owner than the GS.
You buy an ES because you want a luxury brand as a status symbol. No other reason. If you wanted it for it's functionality as a car, then you could have purchased a Camry or an Accord. The sound tests I have seen say both are equally quiet. I've been in an ES and a Camry and agree. If you're discerning about the ES interior you'll discover a lack of attention to detail on things that matter and realize that it's designed to give the appearance of luxury. If somebody sees your ES interior they will comment on how nice it is. If somebody uses your ES, they will actually realize that the armrest is poorly designed, that the LCD display font is small and hard to read, etc etc.
You buy a GS because you want a luxury brand but you also want a luxury car. When buying a car, I always sit in the driver's seat and spend time understanding where everything is for the driver and if it makes sense. The GS has an interior that has both been thought out and designed to visually please. The ES is just designed to visually please.
So, clearly listed features do not tell the true story about the interior. More importantly though, even if your aesthetics are not discerning to spot the interior GS luxury vs ES imitation luxury, it is impossible to miss the fundamental driving characteristics that tell you that the ES is not a luxury car. Either one of these issues is serious enough, but combined it's terrible.
These are; 1) the engine, & 2) RWD
The engine has 2 flaws. Firstly, unacceptable delay when kicking down. Secondly, not enough torque available lower down. This engine unresponsiveness has all the luxury of a Lada. You're driving along in apparent luxury, nice soft ride, light steering wheel and when you need to accelerate you have to think like a racing driver. Which gear am I in? What are my revs? Should I kick down or move the gear shift? The engine makes a HUGE difference to whether these cars drive like luxury cars.
I also got the engine flaring from 3rd to 4th. Very disconcerting.
Now onto not having RWD. With this engine, lack of RWD makes the issue even worse, since unlike the GS where you get pushed along effortlessly with lower end torque, with the ES you get jerkily pulled along from the front.
This is not luxury people!!!!
The point is she might look good but if she doesn't drive well then what's the point?
Now, some pros of the ES so you understand I am fair about this (but I choose not to list the many ES issues here like the very cheap boot closing action);
Noticeably better fuel economy.
Rear and boot space
Appropriate steering feel for the ride
Better interior lighting
Nice exterior styling
Better quality sun visors
Better quality sunglasses holder
But if I were in the market for an ES type car, I'd think about getting the older ES model or an RX (if I had to get the Lexus for image) since it has a quieter engine, feels more solid), or I'd just buy a Camry, Accord or other non luxury brand model that has the equivalent space and functionality but at a lower price. The brand just isn't that important to me if the car fundamentally doesn't match the image. Indeed as I write this, if I was in the market for an ES type car ie spacious, reasonable engine, good fuel economy, safe, comfortable ride, I would pick up a used Ford 500 which at 1 year old would be less than half the price with actually much more space. The ES still wasn't big enough in the back with me in the driver's seat.
Last edited by rjacket; 09-17-07 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Clarity
09-17-07, 06:19 PM
#26
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Steering wheel buttons
Thats a very in-depth write up and really brings into consideration the price difference in ES and GS. I have not been in a suitable financial situation to be testing out brand new Lexus, but I've always had quite a high expectation for the brand. Hopefully my next purchase won't be a disappointment.
When you mention the "cheap feeling buttons" on the steering wheel of ES, do you mean flimsy and loose buttons with excessive space between the recess and the button? That has always been one of my fears of interior design in a vehicle. If they can't make a button properly, what can they do correctly?
When you mention the "cheap feeling buttons" on the steering wheel of ES, do you mean flimsy and loose buttons with excessive space between the recess and the button? That has always been one of my fears of interior design in a vehicle. If they can't make a button properly, what can they do correctly?
09-17-07, 06:52 PM
#28
Lexus Champion
I think Twister summarized my first post better than I could have.
My post was prefaced saying I'm comparing these cars only because they seem similar on paper but with a big price differential. But many people do compare the 2 so I wanted to give my impressions for those people.
I drove an ES for 2 weeks, not 2 hours and was glad to get my GS back. Yes the ES is a nice comfortable car but since Savon you've gone into the psychology of people who buy the GS, I think the ES reveals much more about the owner than the GS.
You buy an ES because you want a luxury brand as a status symbol. No other reason. If you wanted it for it's functionality as a car, then you could have purchased a Camry or an Accord. The sound tests I have seen say both are equally quiet. I've been in an ES and a Camry and agree. If you're discerning about the ES interior you'll discover a lack of attention to detail on things that matter and realize that it's designed to give the appearance of luxury. If somebody sees your ES interior they will comment on how nice it is. If somebody uses your ES, they will actually realize that the armrest is poorly designed, that the LCD display font is small and hard to read, etc etc.
You buy a GS because you want a luxury brand but you also want a luxury car. When buying a car, I always sit in the driver's seat and spend time understanding where everything is for the driver and if it makes sense. The GS has an interior that has both been thought out and designed to visually please. The ES is just designed to visually please.
So, clearly listed features do not tell the true story about the interior. More importantly though, even if your aesthetics are not discerning to spot the interior GS luxury vs ES imitation luxury, it is impossible to miss the fundamental driving characteristics that tell you that the ES is not a luxury car. Either one of these issues is serious enough, but combined it's terrible.
These are; 1) the engine, & 2) RWD
The engine has 2 flaws. Firstly, unacceptable delay when kicking down. Secondly, not enough torque available lower down. This engine unresponsiveness has all the luxury of a Lada. You're driving along in apparent luxury, nice soft ride, light steering wheel and when you need to accelerate you have to think like a racing driver. Which gear am I in? What are my revs? Should I kick down or move the gear shift? The engine makes a HUGE difference to whether these cars drive like luxury cars.
I also got the engine flaring from 3rd to 4th. Very disconcerting.
Now onto not having RWD. With this engine, lack of RWD makes the issue even worse, since unlike the GS where you get pushed along effortlessly with lower end torque, with the ES you get jerkily pulled along from the front.
This is not luxury people!!!!
The point is she might look good but if she doesn't drive well then what's the point?
Now, some pros of the ES so you understand I am fair about this (but I choose not to list the many ES issues here like the very cheap boot closing action);
Noticeably better fuel economy.
Rear and boot space
Appropriate steering feel for the ride
Better interior lighting
Nice exterior styling
Better quality sun visors
Better quality sunglasses holder
But if I were in the market for an ES type car, I'd think about getting the older ES model or an RX (if I had to get the Lexus for image) since it has a quieter engine, feels more solid), or I'd just buy a Camry, Accord or other non luxury brand model that has the equivalent space and functionality but at a lower price. The brand just isn't that important to me if the car fundamentally doesn't match the image. Indeed as I write this, if I was in the market for an ES type car ie spacious, reasonable engine, good fuel economy, safe, comfortable ride, I would pick up a used Ford 500 which at 1 year old would be less than half the price with actually much more space. The ES still wasn't big enough in the back with me in the driver's seat.
My post was prefaced saying I'm comparing these cars only because they seem similar on paper but with a big price differential. But many people do compare the 2 so I wanted to give my impressions for those people.
I drove an ES for 2 weeks, not 2 hours and was glad to get my GS back. Yes the ES is a nice comfortable car but since Savon you've gone into the psychology of people who buy the GS, I think the ES reveals much more about the owner than the GS.
You buy an ES because you want a luxury brand as a status symbol. No other reason. If you wanted it for it's functionality as a car, then you could have purchased a Camry or an Accord. The sound tests I have seen say both are equally quiet. I've been in an ES and a Camry and agree. If you're discerning about the ES interior you'll discover a lack of attention to detail on things that matter and realize that it's designed to give the appearance of luxury. If somebody sees your ES interior they will comment on how nice it is. If somebody uses your ES, they will actually realize that the armrest is poorly designed, that the LCD display font is small and hard to read, etc etc.
You buy a GS because you want a luxury brand but you also want a luxury car. When buying a car, I always sit in the driver's seat and spend time understanding where everything is for the driver and if it makes sense. The GS has an interior that has both been thought out and designed to visually please. The ES is just designed to visually please.
So, clearly listed features do not tell the true story about the interior. More importantly though, even if your aesthetics are not discerning to spot the interior GS luxury vs ES imitation luxury, it is impossible to miss the fundamental driving characteristics that tell you that the ES is not a luxury car. Either one of these issues is serious enough, but combined it's terrible.
These are; 1) the engine, & 2) RWD
The engine has 2 flaws. Firstly, unacceptable delay when kicking down. Secondly, not enough torque available lower down. This engine unresponsiveness has all the luxury of a Lada. You're driving along in apparent luxury, nice soft ride, light steering wheel and when you need to accelerate you have to think like a racing driver. Which gear am I in? What are my revs? Should I kick down or move the gear shift? The engine makes a HUGE difference to whether these cars drive like luxury cars.
I also got the engine flaring from 3rd to 4th. Very disconcerting.
Now onto not having RWD. With this engine, lack of RWD makes the issue even worse, since unlike the GS where you get pushed along effortlessly with lower end torque, with the ES you get jerkily pulled along from the front.
This is not luxury people!!!!
The point is she might look good but if she doesn't drive well then what's the point?
Now, some pros of the ES so you understand I am fair about this (but I choose not to list the many ES issues here like the very cheap boot closing action);
Noticeably better fuel economy.
Rear and boot space
Appropriate steering feel for the ride
Better interior lighting
Nice exterior styling
Better quality sun visors
Better quality sunglasses holder
But if I were in the market for an ES type car, I'd think about getting the older ES model or an RX (if I had to get the Lexus for image) since it has a quieter engine, feels more solid), or I'd just buy a Camry, Accord or other non luxury brand model that has the equivalent space and functionality but at a lower price. The brand just isn't that important to me if the car fundamentally doesn't match the image. Indeed as I write this, if I was in the market for an ES type car ie spacious, reasonable engine, good fuel economy, safe, comfortable ride, I would pick up a used Ford 500 which at 1 year old would be less than half the price with actually much more space. The ES still wasn't big enough in the back with me in the driver's seat.