flipside909

The only way your insurance premiums increase is if you are AT FAULT in an accident. Each state has different definitions for fault losses and accident scenarios. Here in California, we have the California Vehicle Codes which defines the rules for the road and your vehicle here in our state.

As far as the argument of the black box, some of you guys are a little paranoid about it imho. An insurance company cannot just drop you because you didn't wear your seatbelt. Your insurance company will defend you up to it's legal limits and give your side the benefit of the doubt in an accident, granted it's not a marginal 50/50 loss. You pay your premiums yearly for the policy coverages you elected. It's also defined in the policy booklet that is given to you to help you understand what is covered and what is not. The captured data is there to help everyone investigate an accident because sometimes first party accounts are not entirely accurate. Insurance companies surprisingly don't have easy access to black box data. It's 3rd party info that is protected and can only given up by the manufacturer if the courts need to access it. The black box data is mainly there to help study an occurence of a loss, and beneficials to manufacturers to help create/improve current and future safety features for vehicles. The data is not there to incriminate you. Again the courts cannot decide who is at fault in a loss. It's all the decision between the insurance companies.

The privacy act protects your rights. It's even though for insurance companies to obtain police reports from local municipalities because the insurer itself wasn't involved directly in a loss, it's their insured (1st party) that is. Insurance companies have to obtain police reports either by you if you get a direct copy or they have to go to a legal third party source to obtain it (and this process can sometimes take months). I've been working directly in the automotive insurance field for quite some time now. I couldn't help but chime into this.

ISFTwins

Are you serious? An insurance company won't raise your rates unless you're at fault? Fault in any loss is really a sliding scale and insurance companies can come up with all sorts of reasons why you were at fault/partial fault/responsibility. I could just park my car under a tree on a windy afternoon and a large branch could smash the top of my car .. Am I at fault? Of course not, but my rates will probably go up simply due to the fact that I file a claim for damage to the car.. What insurance company do you work for so I can sign up?! I know this is a seperate issue from the thread, which became more related to how criminal responsibilty was determined by black boxes.. And courts definitely would be involved in determining fault in that case .. Black box records would be fair game in any criminal case!.. I brought up the discussion because I found the information that you provided to be inaccurate in real-world scenarios..

chopperpl

Thanks for chipping in. It sounds like a very accurate information. I have a question tough... In case there is a story conflict between parties involved in the accident, how do they determine who was at fault? Somebody has to pay for damages, and both ins. companies need to defend their interests, right? Isn't it a situation where court order to retrieve data from EDR comes to play..., or would they just split the cost to avoid big legal expenses?
Thx

The G Man

Right now if there is no witness, most of the time it end up as no fault accident or both parties at fault. As the black box become more and more of a common device in cars, you can bet there will be bunch of lawyers looking to make a few bucks off accidents with the black box data.

flipside909

The only way your rates are going to go up (speaking for California only) is if you're at fault in a loss and the damages exceed $750.00 cumulative between both parties, you have a poor driving record and additional drivers on your policy, esp those under the age of 25.

There are two types of loss classifications throughout the country...comprehensive (accidental losses not caused by collision...theft, vandalism, fire, storm, etc) and collision.

Black box would be used if the accident investigators and/or insurance companies cannot find a means of the cause of a loss. The data is there to help determine the factors that caused the loss or how the loss occurred. I've never seen edr data used in my experience to find someone at fault for a loss. Some of my collegues have been across edr data to help determine if the loss was caused by a manufacturers defect or driver error.

Just an example, lets say you were going 65mph on a 45mph street, and someone pulls out of a parking lot and t bones you. In the state of CA, the person with the right of way (meaning you driving down the street) would not be at fault, and the party that impeded your right of way would be at fault, regardless if you were speeding. Now the way the EDR can be used is if your side impact airbags didn't deploy and you were severly injured. Then the investigators can go to the manufacturer and ask why the safety items in the car didn't work at the time of the loss. The EDR would be resourceful in determining if the damages were in or out of parameters of the operation of the safety features. Sure with EDR, it will record speed, time, if seatbelts were used, if all the safety features were working at the time and what position your steering wheel is in, the gas and brake pedals and etc. That information can't be used against you if your own insurance company is the one determining fault in the accident.

I will not mention the company I work for but I will say all insurance companies in CA follow those same definitions laid out by CA Dept of Insurance and DMV CA Vehicle Codes.

CA Dept of Insurance Glossary of Terms:
http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0100-con...lossary-terms/

CA Vehicle Codes:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vc.htm

flipside909

If there is conflict of stories meaning if both insurance companies think their insured is not at fault, it goes to an arbitration board that will determine whos at fault. If fault is overturned either direction, in most cases, the insurer will honor their fault standing for their customer and either ins. company will eat the cost. Sometimes if arbitration sees 50/50 standing, each company will pay 1/2 of each others damages. So yes, if there are legal and admin fees to obtain the EDR from a manufacturer, the insurance company will pay for it either partial or full. Each insurance company has a very very very very very large reserve. They win some and lose some.

flipside909

Also forgot to add, police reports are taken into account in fault losses, but sometimes the officer who wrote the report isn't always right either. There are cases where the insurance claims rep will disagree on what the report says and they'll set their own fault status regardless if there was a police report or not.

ISFTwins

Thanks for the good info and resources..

trusso

I understand, we are however talking about this black box situation.
City cameras catch personal crimes in cities every day, ATM cameras, etc...and I believe that this would also fall into a question of invasion of privacy.
These "black boxes", cameras, etc can indeed help charge or help clear people of a crime. The information detected by these boxes will still be interpreted by a person to "make the call".
I feel that most people wanting to disconnect or disable the device would have a reason to hide but I also dont have a problem with the "invasion of privacy". If I did then I can now see the reasons for wanting the disconnect (although I still dont agree)

trusso

we can agree to disagree !!! haha

The Corvette is too fun to sell, I thought about it but quickly got my head back. My wife also says "no" so there's my answer!!
There's no "black box" in that.

trusso

FLIPSIDE,

Thanks for all the info !!! Good to know !!

mcukier

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

:-)

Sorry I just had to get in to the mix....

trusso

Ben Franklin had a "black box" on his horse, I saw it on the Discovery Channel about a week ago..

Oceans13

Anybody know where its located in the 3GS? or is it integral to the ECU?