yelnoc

No doubt - since I looked at the reviews of the 2nd Gen G's until this day, it seemed odd that at least in 2nd Gen you paid about $10K for the V8. It would be intersting to compare that jump to a family american car of the late 60's and early 70's, in terms of adding performance and its cost, until you had a muscle car. It was wierd, but you would see big ole GM cars with a 425 ci, big ole 4-barrel and bench seats and a 4-spd on the floor. Certainly that's simplistic and it's another time and you can't compare them, but it is puzzling why you couldn't have engine options on what is essentially the same car. The 5L would be fine, but what about a car version of the 5.7L truck engine. The GS platform and non-performance accessories could be packaged as a base pkg. with several engine options, couldn't they? Four motors, a couple of transmissions including AWD, a couple of suspension packages....makes you wonder why not.

vrferrari

that would work too
The issue I have with the latest V8 GS car(s) is that it not a substantial leap over what the 2nd gen GS V8 cars could do, mpg and performance wise.
An IS350 car is just about the equal of a V8 GS car, and if the IS was a little roomier in the back I would probably get one.

timeToy

iTrader: (11)

I agree with pretty much everyone, that short of the 450h, the GS line is very bland, and have really nothing above the competition.

That said, the GS is not a bad car at all, the styling was (is) very modern and seems to be the model for all the new cars that are being released lately, proof here:


Interior and trunk space is definitely on the small side, and power is pretty much there with the best of the segment (+300HP for the V6, +340HP for the V8), handling is very Lexus-like and seems to be on par with the "comfort" competition.
So the GS is not bad, in itself, I think the real issue is the marketing Lexus has choose to develop around the GS, it is a lot of things, but it is not a high performance sedan, so if you want to compare to "performance sedan" it is going to loose on all categories, underpowered, fuzzy direction, soft handling, and there, for sure any 5 series BMW is going to win.

So what is the GS ? Smaller than the LS and ES, more expensive than the IS and ES, less power than the LS, the GS is (as we said in France) sitting in between two chairs, and the sales # definitely reflect this...

I do not think Lexus needs some big GS 2 or 4 door coupe, what Lexus need for the GS is a proper segment to cater to. In marketing they said "target narrow, catch wide", they stretched too much with the GS from the performance market side all the way to the sub-flagship Luxury, bottom line they alienate everyone, the car is too sporty to be a luxury car, too soft to be a sport car, too small to be a family car, too expensive to be have mass market appeal, too cheap to be exclusive...

Bottom line, and I'm sure people are going to flame me for that, but I really think that the ES is killing the GS and, if Lexus want to fix the GS issue, it needs to kill it (or kill the ES and reduce the GS price) !

vrferrari

That's what I think also....

all the parts they need is in the current supply chain. The top of the line GS should outperform the IS line of cars by substantial bit (given the premium paid), with exception of the IS-F.

The current GS is beautiful, but it doesn't perform to my expectations of how a V8 car should perform in todays V8 sport sedan world.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

untrue. i don't think the 550 is anything substantial performance wise over the 335.

you are comparing two cars of different segment/league/market, that's apple to orange, doesn't make any sense. you don't pay the premium just for performance, you pay it for room, quality (maybe), material (maybe), practicality, etc...

by what you say, the ls460 should be able to fly

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

I'm surprised several people think of the GS as bland! Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think it's very stylish. It's got curves and lines many cars don't have. Muscular haunches that are being copied by several other brands. At first I didn't like it but I always thought it was stylish.

vrferrari

I respect what you say, but I think you might have taken things out of the context I was speaking about.

I think I remember when I bought my GS many moons ago, the "something wicked this way comes" was the punch line for a new, aggressive and powerful 4 door sport sedan. 300 hp and sub-zereo 0-60 was unheard of, short of the uber M5 sedans.
The ES was a rebadged Camry and the IS was the entry level car in the line-up that may have catered to the young crowd to get them interested in the luxo brand. The LS was already the established luxo cruiser and had a following.

Today, however, the pendulum has swung to where the IS is the better value when it comes to performance and comfort....obviously just my opinion.
The GS is in no mans land...not the bad boy of the line up it was in it's 300 hp1998 glory days where very few cars in it's class could compare to it in overall value.

I am currently a Lexus GS owner. The car I purchased was sexy, practical (for me), and had enough power that it could hold it's own against most other sedans, regardless of price. The IS couldn't touch it. the LS couldn't touch it...hell...my 98 BMW 540i 6 speed car might have been it's equal in performance but nowhere close in it's reliabilty and quality of build.

My point is simply that I wish that the GS car would have the options available to make it one of the baddest 4 door sport sedans available again.

vrferrari

I think the car is very stylish and in line with what I want in a vehicle.
I just want the option to have a modern hotrod version of the car that performs at the level that the current competition has.

Give me the option to order an F version of the car and I'm good.

vrferrari

You know what ? I think the IS350 is the car killing the GS line. It appeals to the younger set ( the orignal target crowd for the GS back when ), has respectable people hauling capabilities (though still too small for my taste), great lines (sporty), hauls a$$, and is cheaper.

My eyes still see the ES as the up-scale Camry that appeals to that Toyota segment which looks for value first and panache second ( no offense to any of our ES brothers ).

I8ABMR

The ES is absolutely hurting GS sales. It has more headroom, and rear leg room, and more trunk space. All that for 10k less. I just cant stand FWD, and the fact that it doesnt have the industry standard of at least 300hp

rominl

iTrader: (4)

no i totally understand your points, and fwiw, i agree with you to certain extend. i owned 98 gs400, and now 08 gs350, so i know very well about what you say, and i agree that the 98 gs was such a statement, but the 3gs has been a disappointment (yes, i own the car).

but i just don't think cars from different leagues should be considered together, coz' fact is when i can afford the 5, i don't really look at 3. and when i look at the s class, i don't consider e. they are for different types of people. but comparing between brands (e, 5, gs, a6, etc...) now that's a great comparison and we can clearly see 1) why gs loses, 2) what they need to compete

vrferrari

There's very little doubt in my mind that all the various Lexus sedans are hurting GS sales.
But just using myself as an example.....

When I bought my GS, the ES was already in the Lexus line-up but didn't appeal to me because it did have neither the image or performance. The GS was a whole different monster.....300 hp...e-shift....sub 6 second 0-60...etc.
When the IS finally came to the U.S. market, I thought it was an attractive car but WAY too small for me. Even if they would have moved forward with a V8 version in the 1st gen IS (remember Millen's 430 powered car ?), it was just way too small.
The new IS is a whole different story, and combine the increased interior space along with the image and performance to back it up, I could easily (as a GS owner, mind you) cross shop and consider the IS350/IS-F models as a replacement for my current GS.
I would not, however, consider an ES as a replacement...even if they did put a 300hp fwd platform in it.

I get the impression that if/when an ES owner could upgrade their car, they would jump right over a GS and IS for the LS car.
Just my thoughts....

vrferrari

This car, with a hybrid IS-F drivetrain would get it done for me.....

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

I also believe another Lexus steals GS sales but not the ES.......instead the IS. It's such a wonderful car. It's sporty but still stylish. It's luxrious enough to be a Lexus but has that every day usability thing going. The 250 is economical, by Lexus standards, the 350 is fast but still in the lower price range of a GS. I roomy enough for most people but still a little tight for guys my size. I still almost bought one.
Biggest issue for me, they are every where. All over the place. In my development, only I have a 3GS and we have 2. I can't even count the number of IS anymore. Every street I see several. If I had one there would be no choice but to mod it, that's the only way I'd know which was mine when coming out of a store.
I think the IS also steals a few sales from the ES. People who want to stay at a certain price point but want a sportier car would definitely consider this car.

vrferrari

Couldn't agree more.......the IS350 is that combination of size and performance value that used to be the terrain of the GS line.
I'm not sure how many ES owners would give up the amenities offered in that package for a sportier, smaller sedan, but as a current GS owner I'm certainly impressed with the IS350/IS-F.