Staggered vs. non-Staggered
02-16-10, 11:21 AM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Staggered vs. non-Staggered
hey guys and gals,
i was debating which way to go on my 2009 GS460 and been reading about the pros and cons of staggered vs.non-staggered set-up.
my understanding so far is staggered provides more grip under acceleration but less balance under cornering and the car under-steers more. non-staggered provides better balance but less grip under acceleration.
i do admit that the look of the staggered wheels is much better, but i do love to drive fast once in a while and i hate a non balanced car and under-steering, therefore i was thinking of going wider all around to maybe 255 or 265/30/20, but my worry is the tires might start rubbing or worse cause damage to the car's front suspension and set-up.
The car is dropped ~1" using Swift Springs.
can you help me out and let me know your experiences in going wide all around or your thoughts in general.
i was debating which way to go on my 2009 GS460 and been reading about the pros and cons of staggered vs.non-staggered set-up.
my understanding so far is staggered provides more grip under acceleration but less balance under cornering and the car under-steers more. non-staggered provides better balance but less grip under acceleration.
i do admit that the look of the staggered wheels is much better, but i do love to drive fast once in a while and i hate a non balanced car and under-steering, therefore i was thinking of going wider all around to maybe 255 or 265/30/20, but my worry is the tires might start rubbing or worse cause damage to the car's front suspension and set-up.
The car is dropped ~1" using Swift Springs.
can you help me out and let me know your experiences in going wide all around or your thoughts in general.
02-16-10, 11:37 AM
#4
Intermediate
Thread Starter
02-16-10, 11:40 AM
#5
one thing i don't really agree is the "balance". personally i don't think with staggered setup you will throw off the balance or handling of the car in a bad way.
if anything, the stock setup are so narrow and it oversteers way too easily (and too much). when i was on stock setup, if i turned the car fast and hard, the rear could swing out very easily causing oversteer.
where as now with my staggered setup, the wider tires not only help on traction during acceleration, but it also helps tremendously on turns on holding the ground. yes, by comparison the car doesn't oversteer as much now, but i myself probably wouldn't use understeer to describe it. if i am in a turn and i go hard, i can still kick out the rear if i want
even with 265 it's not really that "wide" for the rear. personally i think 245 front and 275 or 285 rear can be a good combo
if anything, the stock setup are so narrow and it oversteers way too easily (and too much). when i was on stock setup, if i turned the car fast and hard, the rear could swing out very easily causing oversteer.
where as now with my staggered setup, the wider tires not only help on traction during acceleration, but it also helps tremendously on turns on holding the ground. yes, by comparison the car doesn't oversteer as much now, but i myself probably wouldn't use understeer to describe it. if i am in a turn and i go hard, i can still kick out the rear if i want
even with 265 it's not really that "wide" for the rear. personally i think 245 front and 275 or 285 rear can be a good combo
02-16-10, 11:44 AM
#6
regarding rotation of tires, honestly, i don't see the very big deal on staggered setup. to me, as long as the tires are directional, so i can flip the tires left and right, i am good to go. i don't see the real point of able to flip tires front and rear or diagonal. when it wears it wears.
on my staggered setup. i flip the tires left and right around 10k point, and i get abut 20k on them. when need to change tires, i just change both rear, or both front.
on my staggered setup. i flip the tires left and right around 10k point, and i get abut 20k on them. when need to change tires, i just change both rear, or both front.
02-16-10, 11:52 AM
#7
Intermediate
Thread Starter
one thing i don't really agree is the "balance". personally i don't think with staggered setup you will throw off the balance or handling of the car in a bad way.
if anything, the stock setup are so narrow and it oversteers way too easily (and too much). when i was on stock setup, if i turned the car fast and hard, the rear could swing out very easily causing oversteer.
where as now with my staggered setup, the wider tires not only help on traction during acceleration, but it also helps tremendously on turns on holding the ground. yes, by comparison the car doesn't oversteer as much now, but i myself probably wouldn't use understeer to describe it. if i am in a turn and i go hard, i can still kick out the rear if i want
even with 265 it's not really that "wide" for the rear. personally i think 245 front and 275 or 285 rear can be a good combo
if anything, the stock setup are so narrow and it oversteers way too easily (and too much). when i was on stock setup, if i turned the car fast and hard, the rear could swing out very easily causing oversteer.
where as now with my staggered setup, the wider tires not only help on traction during acceleration, but it also helps tremendously on turns on holding the ground. yes, by comparison the car doesn't oversteer as much now, but i myself probably wouldn't use understeer to describe it. if i am in a turn and i go hard, i can still kick out the rear if i want
even with 265 it's not really that "wide" for the rear. personally i think 245 front and 275 or 285 rear can be a good combo
as i said the look of a staggered set-up is way much better, but i was afraid that i would loose the balance. you are correct about the car is tail happy from stand still to corners with the OEM wheels and tires and i'm happy to hear that a staggered set-up actually fixes this with minimal or no under-steer.
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02-16-10, 12:11 PM
#8
thanks rominl, this is actually what i am looking for in answers. you read a lot but nothing beats experience. so in your opinion and your experience you do not think the car under-steers as much as claimed with a staggered set-up?
as i said the look of a staggered set-up is way much better, but i was afraid that i would loose the balance. you are correct about the car is tail happy from stand still to corners with the OEM wheels and tires and i'm happy to hear that a staggered set-up actually fixes this with minimal or no under-steer.
as i said the look of a staggered set-up is way much better, but i was afraid that i would loose the balance. you are correct about the car is tail happy from stand still to corners with the OEM wheels and tires and i'm happy to hear that a staggered set-up actually fixes this with minimal or no under-steer.
02-16-10, 12:45 PM
#9
Intermediate
Thread Starter
right now i have 245 and 265 on my car, and from my driving experience i would use understeer to describe it. for sure it can take much harder turns than with factory setup, but at the same time i don't have a feeling that the steering is fighting with me trying to go out into the center divider. keep in mind i have coilovers but factory sway bars, so that might change the suspension characteristic a bit. once i lowered the car with staggered setup, for sure i changed my driving a bit and turn in harder, which with stock setup for sure will kick out the rear
if i go 245 and 275 you think this would be a good setup rather than going 255 and 255 or 265 and 265?
by the way i do agree with you on the rotation thing, therefore rotation is the least of my worries.
02-16-10, 02:19 PM
#10
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Rominil-
I think you had a typo...you mean NON- directional tread to rotate from side to side.
If the tires are directional tread and swapped side to side - the tread will be backwards. Directional tread with staggered width tires can not be rotated.
Cheers!
I think you had a typo...you mean NON- directional tread to rotate from side to side.
If the tires are directional tread and swapped side to side - the tread will be backwards. Directional tread with staggered width tires can not be rotated.
Cheers!
02-16-10, 02:33 PM
#11
i guess driving front wheel drive cars for the last 15 years got me sick of understeer. I had a 2001 saab 95 aero that i bought new in 2001 before selling it and buying a GS 3 months ago. though the saab used to be firm, solid and a joy to drive, and i do miss it, but you cannot get rid of the understeer with all the power pulling the front tires.
if i go 245 and 275 you think this would be a good setup rather than going 255 and 255 or 265 and 265?
by the way i do agree with you on the rotation thing, therefore rotation is the least of my worries.
if i go 245 and 275 you think this would be a good setup rather than going 255 and 255 or 265 and 265?
by the way i do agree with you on the rotation thing, therefore rotation is the least of my worries.
imho, 245 and 275 is a good reasonable setup. i don't have it on my gs350, i had that on my gs400 and i think it was pretty good. fwiw, even with that setup, i could still kick out the rear if i wanted. on my gs350, i don't drive that aggressive anymore and with my 245 and 265 setup, i am pretty satisfied
if you think about it, using non-directional tires would be somewhat pointless. as long as alignment is well and assume normal driving condition, wear between left and right side should be very similar.
problem with non-directional tires is that there is only outside and inside. especially on lowered cars (and even for most factory cars), the inside of the tire wears out faster than outside (because of negative camber design for handling, even from factory). if you have non-directional tires, you can't flip the tires, you will just keep on wearing the inside. once that's gone, even if you still have life left on the outside tread of the tire, the tire is useless.
but with directional tires, once the inside start to wear, what you do is to flip the tires, left to right, and right to left. that way, the tire direction is still correct, but the new "inside" is the old "outside, so you continue to get more life out of them.
i use toyo t1r tires, directional. at 10k point, the inside wear down already, i flip the tires and i pretty much get some new tires to work for another 10k
hope this explains it
02-16-10, 02:56 PM
#12
I've had 6 sets of wheels on my GS. One set was non-staggered. The car rode bettter, handled better and aligned perfectly with 20x8.5/245-35-20 all around set-up. It was amazing. It was hitting curves, weaving traffic, accelerting more quickly and stopping faster. I assume the difference in circumsference and rotational mass was the reason. Diameter is the same but circumsference can't be with different size tires.
The biggest problem is that look. That look is just too darn cool with staggered. Since we aren't tracking the cars, the performance difference just isn't enough to compensate for that look. That's it and only it. No need to talk about performance. The slight difference isn't enough to forego the LOOK!
The biggest problem is that look. That look is just too darn cool with staggered. Since we aren't tracking the cars, the performance difference just isn't enough to compensate for that look. That's it and only it. No need to talk about performance. The slight difference isn't enough to forego the LOOK!
02-16-10, 04:29 PM
#13
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ah, fwd nightmare. i know what you mean. i drove camry before, and then the acura tls. both fwd. i didn't know much about understeer back then, but i always wonder why when i turned, i always seemed to fight with the steering wheel. not until i got my first gs400 and understand how a more balanced turn is.
imho, 245 and 275 is a good reasonable setup. i don't have it on my gs350, i had that on my gs400 and i think it was pretty good. fwiw, even with that setup, i could still kick out the rear if i wanted. on my gs350, i don't drive that aggressive anymore and with my 245 and 265 setup, i am pretty satisfied
no, actually it's not typo. i am talking about directional tires. and that's why i said flip the tires, NOT the wheels.
if you think about it, using non-directional tires would be somewhat pointless. as long as alignment is well and assume normal driving condition, wear between left and right side should be very similar.
problem with non-directional tires is that there is only outside and inside. especially on lowered cars (and even for most factory cars), the inside of the tire wears out faster than outside (because of negative camber design for handling, even from factory). if you have non-directional tires, you can't flip the tires, you will just keep on wearing the inside. once that's gone, even if you still have life left on the outside tread of the tire, the tire is useless.
but with directional tires, once the inside start to wear, what you do is to flip the tires, left to right, and right to left. that way, the tire direction is still correct, but the new "inside" is the old "outside, so you continue to get more life out of them.
i use toyo t1r tires, directional. at 10k point, the inside wear down already, i flip the tires and i pretty much get some new tires to work for another 10k
hope this explains it
imho, 245 and 275 is a good reasonable setup. i don't have it on my gs350, i had that on my gs400 and i think it was pretty good. fwiw, even with that setup, i could still kick out the rear if i wanted. on my gs350, i don't drive that aggressive anymore and with my 245 and 265 setup, i am pretty satisfied
no, actually it's not typo. i am talking about directional tires. and that's why i said flip the tires, NOT the wheels.
if you think about it, using non-directional tires would be somewhat pointless. as long as alignment is well and assume normal driving condition, wear between left and right side should be very similar.
problem with non-directional tires is that there is only outside and inside. especially on lowered cars (and even for most factory cars), the inside of the tire wears out faster than outside (because of negative camber design for handling, even from factory). if you have non-directional tires, you can't flip the tires, you will just keep on wearing the inside. once that's gone, even if you still have life left on the outside tread of the tire, the tire is useless.
but with directional tires, once the inside start to wear, what you do is to flip the tires, left to right, and right to left. that way, the tire direction is still correct, but the new "inside" is the old "outside, so you continue to get more life out of them.
i use toyo t1r tires, directional. at 10k point, the inside wear down already, i flip the tires and i pretty much get some new tires to work for another 10k
hope this explains it
From GoodYear's website: (see last paragraph)
http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Rotation.html
Should I rotate my tires?
Regular and proper tire rotation promotes more uniform wear for all of the tires on a vehicle. All season tires should be rotated in a "modified X" pattern, meaning only the tires being moved to the drive axle are crossed to the opposite side of the vehicle.
The remaining two tires are moved from the drive axle to the free rolling axle, remaining on the same side of the vehicle. This method of rotation helps promote a more even and uniform treadwear pattern for all four tires.
The only exception to this would be the use of "directional" tread design tires such as our Aquatred II or some of our Eagle line high performance tires. These tires would remain on the same side of the vehicle and be rotated straight forward and straight back
Cheers!
02-16-10, 06:49 PM
#14
Directional tread tires have an arrow on them to show the direction of rotation. If you take the right rear tire (clockwise rotation) and mount that wheel on the left rear side - the arrow will now be in the counter clockwise direction...You would have to break the tires down off the rims and remount them (inside right sidewall of the tire becomes outside left). I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here- Directional tread tires can not be rotated side to side...just front to rear.
From GoodYear's website: (see last paragraph)
http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Rotation.html
Should I rotate my tires?
Regular and proper tire rotation promotes more uniform wear for all of the tires on a vehicle. All season tires should be rotated in a "modified X" pattern, meaning only the tires being moved to the drive axle are crossed to the opposite side of the vehicle.
The remaining two tires are moved from the drive axle to the free rolling axle, remaining on the same side of the vehicle. This method of rotation helps promote a more even and uniform treadwear pattern for all four tires.
The only exception to this would be the use of "directional" tread design tires such as our Aquatred II or some of our Eagle line high performance tires. These tires would remain on the same side of the vehicle and be rotated straight forward and straight back
Cheers!
From GoodYear's website: (see last paragraph)
http://www.goodyeartires.com/faqs/Rotation.html
Should I rotate my tires?
Regular and proper tire rotation promotes more uniform wear for all of the tires on a vehicle. All season tires should be rotated in a "modified X" pattern, meaning only the tires being moved to the drive axle are crossed to the opposite side of the vehicle.
The remaining two tires are moved from the drive axle to the free rolling axle, remaining on the same side of the vehicle. This method of rotation helps promote a more even and uniform treadwear pattern for all four tires.
The only exception to this would be the use of "directional" tread design tires such as our Aquatred II or some of our Eagle line high performance tires. These tires would remain on the same side of the vehicle and be rotated straight forward and straight back
Cheers!
hope that makes sense?
