Do you think your GS is a Lexus or a Toyota?
05-20-10, 09:47 AM
#16
This is an irrelevant argument. Lexus is Lexus, Toyota is Toyota, it doesn't matter if they look the same except for the badge and a few more gagets. Same argument can be used for purses, shoes, jeans, houses etc... What makes anything luxurious? The badge and gagets. You build a house in a ghetto neighborhood and then another house with the same specs in an upscale neighborhood and put a bunch of gagets in it such as a pool, basketball court, big screen TVs remote controlled blinds, etc... AND, you can sell it for a lot more money. But, is it the same house? That's exactly your question, right there. However, I do agree with you about the quality standards in US and Europe though. There are a lot of cutbacks overlooks in cars made in the USA due to it's labor costs. And that's exactly why I think the Big Three are in trouble.
05-20-10, 10:37 AM
#17
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The fact that Lexus Quality has slipped is the problem. Had I known I was going to have this many problems with the 3GS, I would have just bought a Jaguar and had more prestige and probably fewer problems.
05-20-10, 10:42 AM
#18
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As time goes by, I begin to realize that luxury in the US is not the same standard as around the world. When I moved to the US, I was excited to be able to buy a luxury car for far less than it would cost me in the UK.
I think that excitement, my lack of having owned luxury cars before, the Lexus image, as well as the striking interior design of the GS, all combined to persuade me to purchase my GS 3 years ago.
As time goes by, I realize more and more where the costs were cut, and where the design was to visually please rather than to please over the long term through knowing there was substance behind the look.
I think that excitement, my lack of having owned luxury cars before, the Lexus image, as well as the striking interior design of the GS, all combined to persuade me to purchase my GS 3 years ago.
As time goes by, I realize more and more where the costs were cut, and where the design was to visually please rather than to please over the long term through knowing there was substance behind the look.
Having sat in a 1GS, 2GS, 3GS when they debuted and other Toyotas at the time the difference in 1993, 1998, 2005 was night and day. I cannot sit in ANY Toyota and think "wow this is like a Lexus".
My sense is that Lexus' currently have huge markups and that lower volume does not hurt as much as one might think. The huge mark ups are apparent from the fact that so many components are reused from Toyota and that the luxury touches have been engineered to give the look of luxury without all of the substance. The lower volume is offset by the fact that the Lexus's including the GS, are more and more really Toyotas.
How can I say that?
Well for one, the ES is a Camry, no arguments there. Other models are based on Toyotas also. The RX I believe is a Highlander, I know that the LX is a Landcruiser or one of the SUV's and I'm sure the GX is also. The Hs is a Prius.
For the others, one needs to look outside the US for the Toyota model.
How can I say that?
Well for one, the ES is a Camry, no arguments there. Other models are based on Toyotas also. The RX I believe is a Highlander, I know that the LX is a Landcruiser or one of the SUV's and I'm sure the GX is also. The Hs is a Prius.
For the others, one needs to look outside the US for the Toyota model.
The RX debuted YEARS before the Highlander. They were all based on Camry chassis. The RX CREATED the car based luxury car segment. Yes, CREATED it.
The LX/Landcruiser also have different sheetmetal, options and interiors. Just sit in the two, it is not a rebadge, it is platform sharing (which the Germans do as well).
In contrast the Acura TSX is a rebage of the Euro Accord. A simple grill swap (for the worse)
The GS appears to be a Toyota Mark X on the outside with Toyota Crown interior. See the attached pics and articles. Notice how the instrument cluster are the same, the center front console, the air vents. Heck there is even more (maybe fake) wood on the front dash! And notice how the 2009 Mark X gets the same 3.5 engine as the GS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mark_X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mark_X
Also it doesn't matter if its a Toyota or not, much like the Hyundai Genesis, Nissan Fuga (our M37/56), Honda Legend (our RL) they are all built to standards of luxury cars. Thus their high asking price.
Now I'm not only picking on Lexus (hence the reason for my introduction to this post) but it is certainly putting me off the brand.
But here are some other observations on the whole topic of real vs apparent luxury:
1) I ended up renting a Mercedes C class a couple of years ago in Germany and was struck by how solid it felt, how luxurious the interior was, how much wood was in there, how the plastic was more solid and also the feel of the controls including the climate control dials. It really made me think where was the luxury in my Lexus. Shortly after, when I got back to the US, I was looking at the Mercedes R class, and was underwhelmed. When I turned the exact same climate control dials, the feel was cheap and plastic and the action was poor, like I was in a Chevy. I definitely felt it was downspec'd compared to the C class in Germany. So maybe it's not a Lexus thing, maybe it's a US market thing.
But here are some other observations on the whole topic of real vs apparent luxury:
1) I ended up renting a Mercedes C class a couple of years ago in Germany and was struck by how solid it felt, how luxurious the interior was, how much wood was in there, how the plastic was more solid and also the feel of the controls including the climate control dials. It really made me think where was the luxury in my Lexus. Shortly after, when I got back to the US, I was looking at the Mercedes R class, and was underwhelmed. When I turned the exact same climate control dials, the feel was cheap and plastic and the action was poor, like I was in a Chevy. I definitely felt it was downspec'd compared to the C class in Germany. So maybe it's not a Lexus thing, maybe it's a US market thing.
America is a huge market for the Germans and your assumption is off. If anything America only GETS the best and most expensive from Benz/BMW/Audi. Thus their "image" of superiority. We don't get the 1 series 3 door or 5 door, the A/B class hatches, the A1 Audis. Instead we get mostly big engines and cars full of options.
4) I rented a Ford in the UK and again, very different all round feel compared to Ford rentals in the US. It really seems that the basic quality is higher in Europe and that the luxury entry point in the US is very close to it. The price differentials appear to be at least a significant part illusion..
5) I owned a near top of the range Honda Accord in the UK. When I got to the US and saw an Acura, the thing that put me off considering it was that it reminded me of the Honda Accord. I later found out that the Honda Accord in Europe was in fact the Acura TL in the US. There was one further trim level called the Type V which I believe would be exactly the same as the Acura, but mine was pretty close to that already.
I know that there are many positives with Lexus and maybe the next thing for me to do is compare an LS against a 7 series or an S class. After all, that is the flagship upon which the reputation rests.
But whatever happens, the lesson learnt for me will be to spend more time evaluating what it is that I am buying next time. I think some of the pictures of Toyotas really make the point.
But whatever happens, the lesson learnt for me will be to spend more time evaluating what it is that I am buying next time. I think some of the pictures of Toyotas really make the point.
05-20-10, 02:57 PM
#19
The TL was never an Accord.
First gen was a Legend and second gen was an Inspire.
The Euro Accord = Acura TSX as two have stated already.
And that is a re-badge.
Like 1SICKLEX said, there is a difference between re-badging and platform-sharing.
But honestly, so what? Saab once made a re-badged Subaru WRX a Saab... And it was owned by GM for awhile so does Saab = GM?
If you dislike the 3GS for what it is, then by all means get rid of it and get whatever you want.
But if you only dislike it because it feels like a lowly "Toyota" then you have a bigger problem than the car you're driving.
First gen was a Legend and second gen was an Inspire.
The Euro Accord = Acura TSX as two have stated already.
And that is a re-badge.
Like 1SICKLEX said, there is a difference between re-badging and platform-sharing.
But honestly, so what? Saab once made a re-badged Subaru WRX a Saab... And it was owned by GM for awhile so does Saab = GM?
If you dislike the 3GS for what it is, then by all means get rid of it and get whatever you want.
But if you only dislike it because it feels like a lowly "Toyota" then you have a bigger problem than the car you're driving.
05-20-10, 10:37 PM
#20
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i had someone tell me awhile back that my IS, was just an upgraded corolla, at first i was offended, and began to ask, how is that, when the wheel base is different. the enitre car looks way different, and the fact that i had 300 ponies 
yes the toyota mark x is a nicer toyota, but in no means is it a gs.
yes the toyota mark x is a nicer toyota, but in no means is it a gs.
05-20-10, 10:57 PM
#21
And quality I will not vouch for! I have a light brown leather interior in my BMW, no stains, no stretch marks nothing. It's 4 years old.
My 3GS after 6 months has stretch marka all over the seats, and staines and coloring from clothing all over the leather.
My $50k 2008 BMW E60 525 has better brakes than my $60k 2009 Lexus GS460.
My 3GS after 6 months has stretch marka all over the seats, and staines and coloring from clothing all over the leather.
My $50k 2008 BMW E60 525 has better brakes than my $60k 2009 Lexus GS460.
05-20-10, 11:10 PM
#22
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For me, the value proposition from Lexus is not there. They are not the most dynamic cars to drive, their luxury is well engineered but not substantial, and the quality is down eg rattles in almost all the models.
One thing I would say about Infiniti, is that yes, they very often might be based on a Nissan, and I think that in many cases it would make sense to go for the Nissan, but their value proposition is clear and established. They are looking to provide driving enjoyment in the luxury segment. The G35/G37 is based on the Nissan Skyline which is not your everyday platform, and then they put the luxury touches into the car. The M35/M45 is consistently top of class for driving dynamics and is also more spacious than the GS.
While Infiniti has succeeded in being viewed as the Japanese BMW, I don't think Lexus can currently claim to be the Japanese Mercedes.
05-21-10, 06:02 AM
#24
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I would say that if people end up disliking their Lexus because it feels like a Toyota then Lexus has a problem. And judging by some of the responses, I am not alone.
For me, the value proposition from Lexus is not there. They are not the most dynamic cars to drive, their luxury is well engineered but not substantial, and the quality is down eg rattles in almost all the models.
One thing I would say about Infiniti, is that yes, they very often might be based on a Nissan, and I think that in many cases it would make sense to go for the Nissan, but their value proposition is clear and established. They are looking to provide driving enjoyment in the luxury segment. The G35/G37 is based on the Nissan Skyline which is not your everyday platform, and then they put the luxury touches into the car. The M35/M45 is consistently top of class for driving dynamics and is also more spacious than the GS.
While Infiniti has succeeded in being viewed as the Japanese BMW, I don't think Lexus can currently claim to be the Japanese Mercedes.
For me, the value proposition from Lexus is not there. They are not the most dynamic cars to drive, their luxury is well engineered but not substantial, and the quality is down eg rattles in almost all the models.
One thing I would say about Infiniti, is that yes, they very often might be based on a Nissan, and I think that in many cases it would make sense to go for the Nissan, but their value proposition is clear and established. They are looking to provide driving enjoyment in the luxury segment. The G35/G37 is based on the Nissan Skyline which is not your everyday platform, and then they put the luxury touches into the car. The M35/M45 is consistently top of class for driving dynamics and is also more spacious than the GS.
While Infiniti has succeeded in being viewed as the Japanese BMW, I don't think Lexus can currently claim to be the Japanese Mercedes.
Infiniti hasn't succeeded much in anything, they are 2nd to last in sales and they depend on industry leading leases like BMW to sell cars. They recently scored near last in image and people can't even spell the damn name right.
You are again confusing badges and platform sharing. The G35/37 IS a Nissan Skyline, it just gets rebadged. The M35/45 shares the same FM platform. Clearly both are good cars.
This Infiniti is a Japanese BMW and Lexus is a Japanese Benz is utter B.S. Infiniti has ONE manual car in the G35, BMW several. Infiniti offers the QX56 which is a behometh.
Lexus offered the sporty SC for a decade. The 2GS was the first Japanese sedan to battle the 5/E class head on and succeed. The IS 300 was the first Japanese sedan to battle the 3 series head on with RWD and an I-6.
Today Lexus offers F-sport parts and the IS F and now the LFA.
You can't just paint Lexus with a broad brushstroke and call it a Japanese Benz.
Lexus doesn't need to offer as much "Value" as in the past as they are seen as a credible Tier 1 competitor (not to mention the YEN is nowhere where it was in the early 1990s).
05-21-10, 10:43 AM
#25
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I think the point I am making is one about brand identity, substance and purpose. I also think you take outliers in your Infiniti examples but not in the Lexus case.
Firstly, it's a fact that Infiniti's G & M are sportier than the Lexus equivalents. It's also a fact that the M outperforms the GS in every review and test you see out there. I do agree that the IS is a good car and a viable alternative to a 3 series but it is small. The Infiniti G space wise is much more practical while being as good a car. In fact you could consider the Infiniti G as an alternative for the GS.
I do agree with you that the brand recognition of Infiniti is not so good and if this is what results in one choosing Lexus instead of Infiniti, then that's a personal choice.
But the point I am making is this:
Infiniti have a point of view about their cars ie they should drive well, be of luxury car quality and have the luxury features. They want to have substance in their cars and then the image will follow.
Lexus' point of view is the relentless pursuit of profit. They do this by creating an image to hide what they are really offering. They'll make sports versions of their cars for image purposes but the regular versions won't really share those characteristics. They'll put more and more plastics into the car and thin out the wood and leather. They'll use fake wood in some parts of the car. They'll share interior "luxury" parts with Toyota models. They'll cut corners on safety with a Lexus just as they did with Toyota all in the pursuit of profit.
I think that it is not in dispute that Toyota and Lexus, after many years of superior quality, traded that quality for profit. With Lexus they were happy that the image gave them higher margin sales. Their customer service didn't care about a few unhappy customers here or there. Their dealers didn't care either because they got enough profit from elsewhere.
While some may have a psychological need to believe in the Lexus image and that belief may be enough for them, I need to believe in the car. A lot of 3GS owners aren't happy and I'm not going to ignore my personal experience and drink the Lexus kool-aid because there was a reputation there before i bought my GS.
Firstly, it's a fact that Infiniti's G & M are sportier than the Lexus equivalents. It's also a fact that the M outperforms the GS in every review and test you see out there. I do agree that the IS is a good car and a viable alternative to a 3 series but it is small. The Infiniti G space wise is much more practical while being as good a car. In fact you could consider the Infiniti G as an alternative for the GS.
I do agree with you that the brand recognition of Infiniti is not so good and if this is what results in one choosing Lexus instead of Infiniti, then that's a personal choice.
But the point I am making is this:
Infiniti have a point of view about their cars ie they should drive well, be of luxury car quality and have the luxury features. They want to have substance in their cars and then the image will follow.
Lexus' point of view is the relentless pursuit of profit. They do this by creating an image to hide what they are really offering. They'll make sports versions of their cars for image purposes but the regular versions won't really share those characteristics. They'll put more and more plastics into the car and thin out the wood and leather. They'll use fake wood in some parts of the car. They'll share interior "luxury" parts with Toyota models. They'll cut corners on safety with a Lexus just as they did with Toyota all in the pursuit of profit.
I think that it is not in dispute that Toyota and Lexus, after many years of superior quality, traded that quality for profit. With Lexus they were happy that the image gave them higher margin sales. Their customer service didn't care about a few unhappy customers here or there. Their dealers didn't care either because they got enough profit from elsewhere.
While some may have a psychological need to believe in the Lexus image and that belief may be enough for them, I need to believe in the car. A lot of 3GS owners aren't happy and I'm not going to ignore my personal experience and drink the Lexus kool-aid because there was a reputation there before i bought my GS.
Last edited by rjacket; 05-21-10 at 10:48 AM.
05-21-10, 11:21 AM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
First of all the new RX is NOT based on any toyota (the old one was a toyota harrier). And Yes, your Acura TL (previous gen) was the Euro Accord.
I believe the GS is lexus exclusive. (the IS is based on the GS). The only "toyota cousins", as some would say it, lexus has are the GX (LC prado), LX, and ES.
The HS is NOT a prius. (have you seen the specs? ... just the mpg would give it away) Its powertrain would actually be closer to a camry hybrid.
Also, EVERYONE shares platforms/parts/engines. Just an example, The R8 V10, and a6 avant both get LAMBO sourced engines... (or you can say lambos get VW engines
). Also almost every infinity is a nissan rebadge... Acura uses the same old honda engines, Escalade is a rebadged suburban, etc, etc. SOme people hide it better than others. I think lexus does a good job in differentiating their cars (LX, GX, ES) from the toyotas on which they are based on, and they dont just change the badge like GM.
As for substance behind the looks, I think lexus does it very well.. Just look at their reliability, refinement, technology, and customer satisfaction. It says it all.
I believe the GS is lexus exclusive. (the IS is based on the GS). The only "toyota cousins", as some would say it, lexus has are the GX (LC prado), LX, and ES.
The HS is NOT a prius. (have you seen the specs? ... just the mpg would give it away) Its powertrain would actually be closer to a camry hybrid.
Also, EVERYONE shares platforms/parts/engines. Just an example, The R8 V10, and a6 avant both get LAMBO sourced engines... (or you can say lambos get VW engines
). Also almost every infinity is a nissan rebadge... Acura uses the same old honda engines, Escalade is a rebadged suburban, etc, etc. SOme people hide it better than others. I think lexus does a good job in differentiating their cars (LX, GX, ES) from the toyotas on which they are based on, and they dont just change the badge like GM.As for substance behind the looks, I think lexus does it very well.. Just look at their reliability, refinement, technology, and customer satisfaction. It says it all.
my point of view on this is that Lexus is a Lexus. I looked at toyotas recetly with the wife and the Venza has fitment issues that would send a Lexus customer into a violent frenzy. The highlander is very nice but still doesnt have the same interior quality as the RX. Its much much better than the Venza in terms of fit and finish. I guess what I am saying is that if you think your Lexus is just a big *** toyota go look at what kind of cars toyota is making today. ( I am not saying they are bad cars but they do not have fitment quality even close to the Lexus)
On the other hand I do agree that Lexus has slipped a little with the GS ( AWD especially) so I can understand your frustration. I love my GS so much but it has still had more tiny issues than I would have expected with a car of this caliber but I would still buy another Lexus just based on the customer service quality, luxury, and reputation
05-21-10, 11:46 AM
#27
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I think the point I am making is one about brand identity, substance and purpose. I also think you take outliers in your Infiniti examples but not in the Lexus case.
Firstly, it's a fact that Infiniti's G & M are sportier than the Lexus equivalents. It's also a fact that the M outperforms the GS in every review and test you see out there. I do agree that the IS is a good car and a viable alternative to a 3 series but it is small. The Infiniti G space wise is much more practical while being as good a car. In fact you could consider the Infiniti G as an alternative for the GS.
I do agree with you that the brand recognition of Infiniti is not so good and if this is what results in one choosing Lexus instead of Infiniti, then that's a personal choice.
But the point I am making is this:
Infiniti have a point of view about their cars ie they should drive well, be of luxury car quality and have the luxury features. They want to have substance in their cars and then the image will follow.
Lexus' point of view is the relentless pursuit of profit. They do this by creating an image to hide what they are really offering. They'll make sports versions of their cars for image purposes but the regular versions won't really share those characteristics. They'll put more and more plastics into the car and thin out the wood and leather. They'll use fake wood in some parts of the car. They'll share interior "luxury" parts with Toyota models. They'll cut corners on safety with a Lexus just as they did with Toyota all in the pursuit of profit.
I think that it is not in dispute that Toyota and Lexus, after many years of superior quality, traded that quality for profit. With Lexus they were happy that the image gave them higher margin sales. Their customer service didn't care about a few unhappy customers here or there. Their dealers didn't care either because they got enough profit from elsewhere.
While some may have a psychological need to believe in the Lexus image and that belief may be enough for them, I need to believe in the car. A lot of 3GS owners aren't happy and I'm not going to ignore my personal experience and drink the Lexus kool-aid because there was a reputation there before i bought my GS.
Firstly, it's a fact that Infiniti's G & M are sportier than the Lexus equivalents. It's also a fact that the M outperforms the GS in every review and test you see out there. I do agree that the IS is a good car and a viable alternative to a 3 series but it is small. The Infiniti G space wise is much more practical while being as good a car. In fact you could consider the Infiniti G as an alternative for the GS.
I do agree with you that the brand recognition of Infiniti is not so good and if this is what results in one choosing Lexus instead of Infiniti, then that's a personal choice.
But the point I am making is this:
Infiniti have a point of view about their cars ie they should drive well, be of luxury car quality and have the luxury features. They want to have substance in their cars and then the image will follow.
Lexus' point of view is the relentless pursuit of profit. They do this by creating an image to hide what they are really offering. They'll make sports versions of their cars for image purposes but the regular versions won't really share those characteristics. They'll put more and more plastics into the car and thin out the wood and leather. They'll use fake wood in some parts of the car. They'll share interior "luxury" parts with Toyota models. They'll cut corners on safety with a Lexus just as they did with Toyota all in the pursuit of profit.
I think that it is not in dispute that Toyota and Lexus, after many years of superior quality, traded that quality for profit. With Lexus they were happy that the image gave them higher margin sales. Their customer service didn't care about a few unhappy customers here or there. Their dealers didn't care either because they got enough profit from elsewhere.
While some may have a psychological need to believe in the Lexus image and that belief may be enough for them, I need to believe in the car. A lot of 3GS owners aren't happy and I'm not going to ignore my personal experience and drink the Lexus kool-aid because there was a reputation there before i bought my GS.
You do realize Lexus has the ***** to size the IS identical to size of the 3/C class. You do realize not everyone wants a "tweener" or a big car right (especially in Europe/Asia). The Infiniti G is a knock-off GS, not a competitor. The M competes with the GS. Period.
Not sure why sporty has to be better. Yeah the G/M are sportier and if you want that buy it. Lexus excels at being Lexus and if its less sporty SO BE IT. People clearly LOVE it looking at sales and consumer feedback.
Lexus is the Passionate Pursuit of Perfection. ALL COMPANIES ARE IN IT TO PROFIT. Otherwise they die (or get bailed out)
I find it utterly amazing you are berating Lexus for cutting costs and then promoting Infiniti which sold some of the worst interiors until recently.
What is really confusing is Infiniti shares far more with Nissan than Lexus. So I'm confused with using them as an example. Lexus does share but by far tries to seperate the two brands. Just look no further than the new 2011 Fuga/M37/56 or QX56/Nissan Petrol. (again good products)Its not kool-aid, some of us don't agree with you. I know my 3GS isn't perfect, nor was both 2GSs. Nor the IS, SC or RX or ES (and surely our new 2RXh won't be either). Overall I feel the pros outweigh the negatives here in regards to the 3GS.
Sorry you don't like your car and clearly there is more than enough competition where you can buy something else as good/better.
Last edited by LexFather; 05-21-10 at 11:49 AM.
05-21-10, 02:04 PM
#29
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The only reason I got LS430 and GS350 from Lexus is because Toyota does not have a RWD sedan, other than that I could careless if they put either Lexus or Toyota's emblem on my current ride!!! 
I got them is because the craftsmanship and reliability of Toyota, not the name brand. Otherwise most of us would be still riding in BMW or MB, which have the prestige but not the reliability!!!
Name brand is only a perception, it does not have any function in real life.
When I was younger and dumber, I used to chase after name brands also. I would spend thousands of Dollars purchasing Gianni Versace, Cartier, Louis Vuitton, and so on... now the only thing I do wear daily is SCRUBS.
I got them is because the craftsmanship and reliability of Toyota, not the name brand. Otherwise most of us would be still riding in BMW or MB, which have the prestige but not the reliability!!!
Name brand is only a perception, it does not have any function in real life.
When I was younger and dumber, I used to chase after name brands also. I would spend thousands of Dollars purchasing Gianni Versace, Cartier, Louis Vuitton, and so on... now the only thing I do wear daily is SCRUBS.
05-21-10, 02:17 PM
#30
First gen Legend was made in a small partnership between Honda and Rover. It shared many parts with the Rover 800-series. The 2nd gen was new and did not have anything in common with the Honda lineup. First gen TL and 2nd gen Legend shared the same drivetrain though. They looked almost identical under the hood.
Anyways back to the topic. I consider most Lexus here to be a nicer Toyota from Japan, which isn't a bad thing considering Toyota in Japan are top notch in quality. What makes it Lexus is the dealership and customer service, and that's a good enough reason for me to consider a Lexus.