Do you think your GS is a Lexus or a Toyota?
05-21-10, 02:33 PM
#31
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The GS350 is not Top Notch in Quality. I have spent more time at the dealership with my GS350 than my 99 Gs300 and 3 Honda Accords combined. The emperor has no Clothes. I can't wait for my Hyundai Genesis.
05-21-10, 02:33 PM
#32
Hmm.. 20 years ago, Toyota and Infiniti were definitely targeting each other. Nowadays, I think Infiniti has committed to making cars to chase after the BMW clientele while Lexus (like the Toyota brand) wants to compete with everyone.
The Lexus philosphy in car building is similar to Buick's from 50 years ago. Lexus needs to refocus and decide if they want to be the luxury brand that isolates you from the outside (ES, GS, LS, RX) or follow in Infiniti's footsteps (like Pontiac started doing in the early 1960s) and go after the performance oriented drivers.
Getting back to if a Lexus is a Toyota (as in Nissan is to Infiniti), let me reconfirm...heck yea! Sit in a Camry or Avalon and you have a quick car with a smooth ride that corners poorly. Sit in a Nissan Altima or Maxima and you have a performance oriented sedan that can move and corner with some compromise to a boulevard ride.
Pick your poison.
The Lexus philosphy in car building is similar to Buick's from 50 years ago. Lexus needs to refocus and decide if they want to be the luxury brand that isolates you from the outside (ES, GS, LS, RX) or follow in Infiniti's footsteps (like Pontiac started doing in the early 1960s) and go after the performance oriented drivers.
Getting back to if a Lexus is a Toyota (as in Nissan is to Infiniti), let me reconfirm...heck yea! Sit in a Camry or Avalon and you have a quick car with a smooth ride that corners poorly. Sit in a Nissan Altima or Maxima and you have a performance oriented sedan that can move and corner with some compromise to a boulevard ride.
Pick your poison.
05-21-10, 05:31 PM
#34
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Also, find me 10 random expert reviews of GS vs M and you won't find 5 that favor the Lexus. You are likely to find 1 or 2. In a wider test comparison, the M is always near the top and the GS is near the bottom.
You mean all those GS rattles are meant to be there?
I didn't argue with this. I argued about how they get to profit. In the case of the 3GS, having built quality cars for a while, they cut corners and sold me a car based on prior reputation not current quality. I see more and more signs of image over substance.
Lastly, another point. I saw a review that measured the interior noise in various cars. The Camry and GS came out equal. So that's another data point for me. Why isn't a GS quieter than a Camry? In fact, with the rattles, I think that means that the Lexus is noisier than the Camry. So what exactly did my money get me for the Lexus:
1) Not the sportiest performance in class
2) Not the quietest performance in class
3) Various recalls and things to fix under warranty
4) Rattles that the dealer can't fix
5) Other worrying signs of poor quality as I near the end of my warranty eg the gas cover not opening or closing
6) A pretty useless dealer (I won't even go into that)
Last edited by rjacket; 05-21-10 at 05:41 PM.
05-21-10, 05:40 PM
#35
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I already addressed this point. Lexus USED to make a good car. That doesn't mean we should judge their current cars on prior reputation. They are what they are now. I had a previous generation ES as a loaner and it was by far better than the current ES and more solid than my GS. Toyota used to make reliable cars, now there are lots of recalls and coverups. The new GX is one of the only cars to EVER have been labeled as not to buy due to safety issues.
I didn't argue with this. I argued about how they get to profit. In the case of the 3GS, having built quality cars for a while, they cut corners and sold me a car based on prior reputation not current quality. I see more and more signs of image over substance.
I didn't argue with this. I argued about how they get to profit. In the case of the 3GS, having built quality cars for a while, they cut corners and sold me a car based on prior reputation not current quality. I see more and more signs of image over substance.
Last edited by Cut-Throat; 05-21-10 at 05:49 PM.
05-21-10, 05:49 PM
#36
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Apparently there's at least one very vocal opponent, though, who doesn't think so, and is hell bent on trying to make us all believe differently. I suppose if he has the same attitude with the dealer when trying to get his Lexus fixed, they say sure, and he gets the same back in return. Hope he does well with his Genesis so we don't have to hear from him here anymore. Surely his recent post has nothing to do with the title or substance of the original post, not the first time, nor probably not the last time.
05-21-10, 06:03 PM
#37
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I agree. It's also generally true of Mercedes and BMW too.
Apparently there's at least one very vocal opponent, though, who doesn't think so, and is hell bent on trying to make us all believe differently. I suppose if he has the same attitude with the dealer when trying to get his Lexus fixed, they say sure, and he gets the same back in return. Hope he does well with his Genesis so we don't have to hear from him here anymore. Surely his recent post has nothing to do with the title or substance of the original post, not the first time, nor probably not the last time.
Apparently there's at least one very vocal opponent, though, who doesn't think so, and is hell bent on trying to make us all believe differently. I suppose if he has the same attitude with the dealer when trying to get his Lexus fixed, they say sure, and he gets the same back in return. Hope he does well with his Genesis so we don't have to hear from him here anymore. Surely his recent post has nothing to do with the title or substance of the original post, not the first time, nor probably not the last time.
If you really want to know about my dealer experience, then I'll give you a couple of stories. And I will add, not once have I been rude or anything but constructive with them.
The first story relates to picking up the car. I conducted my own pre-delivery check where I found some scratches, scuff marks etc. I filled them all out on the dealer's own form for pre-delivery work that was agreed. There were something like 20 items. When I came to pick up the car none of them had been addressed. One of the managers comes to the car and looks inside and says he can't see anything wrong. He was wearing dark sunglasses! I had to personally supervise the work to get my car into a new car delivery condition and even then I had to come back a few weeks later to have some parts fitted that they had to order in.
The second story relates to having the central vent rattle fixed. I picked up the car after several days and went out with the service manager. In less than 100 feet of driving, the service manager heard a rattle and immediately admitted it wasn't fixed. How could the dealer have done the work, driven the car, and then even thought about giving it back to me? When I came to pick up the car the second time, they had done a better job but after 10 miles the noise returned. On top of that they scratched my center console when they did the work.
These are just two of the stories at this dealer, whom I am no longer using. There is another rattle which they fixed that came back and several others which have appeared since. My center armrest is loose but they said it's within spec, my gas cover sometimes doesn't open or close without being forced, I've had the start button replaced, my rearview mirror has been replaced and the noise of the direct injection whatever it is comes through into the cabin as if I'm driving an old diesel.
Last edited by rjacket; 05-21-10 at 06:09 PM.
05-21-10, 08:07 PM
#38
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Lets see how the Genesis holds up after 5-10 years before we assume its just as good in quality.
Actually, the 1st generation TL was the only TL that had its own dedicated platform, which is one reason why everything was so damn expensive when it came to replacing body parts. The 2nd gen and on was based on the Accord. TL to use is the same as the Inspire to the rest of the world.
First gen Legend was made in a small partnership between Honda and Rover. It shared many parts with the Rover 800-series. The 2nd gen was new and did not have anything in common with the Honda lineup. First gen TL and 2nd gen Legend shared the same drivetrain though. They looked almost identical under the hood.
Anyways back to the topic. I consider most Lexus here to be a nicer Toyota from Japan, which isn't a bad thing considering Toyota in Japan are top notch in quality. What makes it Lexus is the dealership and customer service, and that's a good enough reason for me to consider a Lexus.
First gen Legend was made in a small partnership between Honda and Rover. It shared many parts with the Rover 800-series. The 2nd gen was new and did not have anything in common with the Honda lineup. First gen TL and 2nd gen Legend shared the same drivetrain though. They looked almost identical under the hood.
Anyways back to the topic. I consider most Lexus here to be a nicer Toyota from Japan, which isn't a bad thing considering Toyota in Japan are top notch in quality. What makes it Lexus is the dealership and customer service, and that's a good enough reason for me to consider a Lexus.
Well I think that more than one poster on this thread agrees with me and just found a couple of threads on rattles where others are saying they won't buy a Lexus again.
If you really want to know about my dealer experience, then I'll give you a couple of stories. And I will add, not once have I been rude or anything but constructive with them.
The first story relates to picking up the car. I conducted my own pre-delivery check where I found some scratches, scuff marks etc. I filled them all out on the dealer's own form for pre-delivery work that was agreed. There were something like 20 items. When I came to pick up the car none of them had been addressed. One of the managers comes to the car and looks inside and says he can't see anything wrong. He was wearing dark sunglasses! I had to personally supervise the work to get my car into a new car delivery condition and even then I had to come back a few weeks later to have some parts fitted that they had to order in.
The second story relates to having the central vent rattle fixed. I picked up the car after several days and went out with the service manager. In less than 100 feet of driving, the service manager heard a rattle and immediately admitted it wasn't fixed. How could the dealer have done the work, driven the car, and then even thought about giving it back to me? When I came to pick up the car the second time, they had done a better job but after 10 miles the noise returned. On top of that they scratched my center console when they did the work.
These are just two of the stories at this dealer, whom I am no longer using. There is another rattle which they fixed that came back and several others which have appeared since. My center armrest is loose but they said it's within spec, my gas cover sometimes doesn't open or close without being forced, I've had the start button replaced, my rearview mirror has been replaced and the noise of the direct injection whatever it is comes through into the cabin as if I'm driving an old diesel.
If you really want to know about my dealer experience, then I'll give you a couple of stories. And I will add, not once have I been rude or anything but constructive with them.
The first story relates to picking up the car. I conducted my own pre-delivery check where I found some scratches, scuff marks etc. I filled them all out on the dealer's own form for pre-delivery work that was agreed. There were something like 20 items. When I came to pick up the car none of them had been addressed. One of the managers comes to the car and looks inside and says he can't see anything wrong. He was wearing dark sunglasses! I had to personally supervise the work to get my car into a new car delivery condition and even then I had to come back a few weeks later to have some parts fitted that they had to order in.
The second story relates to having the central vent rattle fixed. I picked up the car after several days and went out with the service manager. In less than 100 feet of driving, the service manager heard a rattle and immediately admitted it wasn't fixed. How could the dealer have done the work, driven the car, and then even thought about giving it back to me? When I came to pick up the car the second time, they had done a better job but after 10 miles the noise returned. On top of that they scratched my center console when they did the work.
These are just two of the stories at this dealer, whom I am no longer using. There is another rattle which they fixed that came back and several others which have appeared since. My center armrest is loose but they said it's within spec, my gas cover sometimes doesn't open or close without being forced, I've had the start button replaced, my rearview mirror has been replaced and the noise of the direct injection whatever it is comes through into the cabin as if I'm driving an old diesel.
I tried different dealerships in Atlanta with different results. I have no found one that is head and shoulders above the others and we have a FANTASTIC relationship. We just bought my wife a RXh and she was blown away by the sales experience. You are not alone. A lot of people for whatever reason have a Lexus not built up to par and/or not satisfactory dealership experiences. However let us not act like that is the norm because it is far from it.
05-21-10, 08:15 PM
#40
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I already addressed this point. Lexus USED to make a good car. That doesn't mean we should judge their current cars on prior reputation. They are what they are now. I had a previous generation ES as a loaner and it was by far better than the current ES and more solid than my GS. Toyota used to make reliable cars, now there are lots of recalls and coverups. The new GX is one of the only cars to EVER have been labeled as not to buy due to safety issues.
Magazines prefer sportier cars period. That is not what consumers usually want.
Again its sad you hate the rattles but I just drove a NEW 2011 Infiniti M56 and yet it rattled. Blame the tight suspensions and low profile tires. It is no coincidence rattles have become more of an issue with all cars as wheels get bigger and tires get smaller.
I find your comment amazing. You say that I am berating Lexus for cutting costs (yes I am - for cutting costs in the LAST FEW YEARS - for what their cars are NOW) and question why I am not berating Infiniti in the same way for their cars of the PAST. We can't live in the past. I can't say that it is ok that my Lexus rattles NOW because Infiniti USED to have crap interiors. And to top that incorrect time warp comparison off, you yourself imply that Infiniti interiors are now OK.
I don't go coco for coca puffs for the lastest greatest thing and when people "now" get things together. You should have it together from day one. You have to EARN my respect and I don't get fooled by one hit wonders. If I am with a brand and I get for whatever reason a bad product I would not just leave, I would find a way to get a solution or let them make it up to me. Lastly, another point. I saw a review that measured the interior noise in various cars. The Camry and GS came out equal. So that's another data point for me. Why isn't a GS quieter than a Camry? In fact, with the rattles, I think that means that the Lexus is noisier than the Camry. So what exactly did my money get me for the Lexus:
1) Not the sportiest performance in class
2) Not the quietest performance in class
3) Various recalls and things to fix under warranty
4) Rattles that the dealer can't fix
5) Other worrying signs of poor quality as I near the end of my warranty eg the gas cover not opening or closing
6) A pretty useless dealer (I won't even go into that)
1) Not the sportiest performance in class
2) Not the quietest performance in class
3) Various recalls and things to fix under warranty
4) Rattles that the dealer can't fix
5) Other worrying signs of poor quality as I near the end of my warranty eg the gas cover not opening or closing
6) A pretty useless dealer (I won't even go into that)
05-21-10, 10:01 PM
#41
Completely agree with this! --- The 3rd Generation GS is an embarrassment. The rattles alone will cause me to not look at Lexus again, until they come up cars that they had in the 1990s. Hyundai is the new Toyota. The Genesis is the new Lexus GS. Don't believe it? Drive one.
Indeed.
05-22-10, 06:10 AM
#42
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05-22-10, 06:32 AM
#44
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They still make great cars, they still score in the top 3 year after year in quality. It is sad that YOU and some OTHERS have unsatisfactory experiences but that is not unusual. Not every Lexus owner is HAPPY. Most are. Unhappy owners are very vocal about their issues.
You can't find 10 for one and I can find reviews where the GS beat the Benz CLS and there is no Infiniti in the test as it wasn't sold in Europe. Both are great cars and people chose which one they want for different reasons.
Magazines prefer sportier cars period. That is not what consumers usually want.
That is your THEORY there is no proof of this. For instance I have a GS 450h and there still is no competitor for it. It took countless millions in investment to make that car and take that risk.
Again its sad you hate the rattles but I just drove a NEW 2011 Infiniti M56 and yet it rattled. Blame the tight suspensions and low profile tires. It is no coincidence rattles have become more of an issue with all cars as wheels get bigger and tires get smaller.
We clearly have different philosophies on things. I don't go coco for coca puffs for the lastest greatest thing and when people "now" get things together. You should have it together from day one. You have to EARN my respect and I don't get fooled by one hit wonders. If I am with a brand and I get for whatever reason a bad product I would not just leave, I would find a way to get a solution or let them make it up to me.
It simply sounds like you need to sell your GS and get something else.
You can't find 10 for one and I can find reviews where the GS beat the Benz CLS and there is no Infiniti in the test as it wasn't sold in Europe. Both are great cars and people chose which one they want for different reasons.
Magazines prefer sportier cars period. That is not what consumers usually want.
That is your THEORY there is no proof of this. For instance I have a GS 450h and there still is no competitor for it. It took countless millions in investment to make that car and take that risk.
Again its sad you hate the rattles but I just drove a NEW 2011 Infiniti M56 and yet it rattled. Blame the tight suspensions and low profile tires. It is no coincidence rattles have become more of an issue with all cars as wheels get bigger and tires get smaller.
We clearly have different philosophies on things.
I don't go coco for coca puffs for the lastest greatest thing and when people "now" get things together. You should have it together from day one. You have to EARN my respect and I don't get fooled by one hit wonders. If I am with a brand and I get for whatever reason a bad product I would not just leave, I would find a way to get a solution or let them make it up to me. It simply sounds like you need to sell your GS and get something else.
a) Lexus owners- so we bought with the expectation that it would be nearly perfect. The extreme quiet of the interior allows every little rattle to be noticed. As we tend towards the ocd side of things, this drives us nuts.
b) We are, at least the owners in this forum on the enthusiastic side doing lots of mods, paying a lot of attention to the car in general. So we will notice every little thing wrong, unlike your average ES / LS / GX / LX owner. I'm sure there are lot of issues that they just don't get on their radar.
c) I wish the GS would get more credit for it's styling. It still blows away everything else in the mid-level sport/luxury class. I guess it's all just opinion but when car and driver rates the M above it I just give up. I guess Infinity's check was bigger than Lexus. There is a bias against Lexus in the enthusiast press.
05-22-10, 06:47 AM
#45
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I think the 3GS gets so much grief is because the types of people who buy it are
a) Lexus owners- so we bought with the expectation that it would be nearly perfect. The extreme quiet of the interior allows every little rattle to be noticed. As we tend towards the ocd side of things, this drives us nuts.
b) We are, at least the owners in this forum on the enthusiastic side doing lots of mods, paying a lot of attention to the car in general. So we will notice every little thing wrong, unlike your average ES / LS / GX / LX owner. I'm sure there are lot of issues that they just don't get on their radar.
c) I wish the GS would get more credit for it's styling. It still blows away everything else in the mid-level sport/luxury class. I guess it's all just opinion but when car and driver rates the M above it I just give up. I guess Infinity's check was bigger than Lexus. There is a bias against Lexus in the enthusiast press.
a) Lexus owners- so we bought with the expectation that it would be nearly perfect. The extreme quiet of the interior allows every little rattle to be noticed. As we tend towards the ocd side of things, this drives us nuts.
b) We are, at least the owners in this forum on the enthusiastic side doing lots of mods, paying a lot of attention to the car in general. So we will notice every little thing wrong, unlike your average ES / LS / GX / LX owner. I'm sure there are lot of issues that they just don't get on their radar.
c) I wish the GS would get more credit for it's styling. It still blows away everything else in the mid-level sport/luxury class. I guess it's all just opinion but when car and driver rates the M above it I just give up. I guess Infinity's check was bigger than Lexus. There is a bias against Lexus in the enthusiast press.
I also have a 2003 Lexus ES300. It is quieter than my GS350. -- I was not expecting perfection. I was just hoping that the GS350 would be as Quiet and problem free as my ES300.
My dealership has bent over backwards for me. They are first rate. But they cannot be expected to fix design flaws 'after the fact'. I have had my Dash removed 4 times, The brakes replaced 3 times. There was the Fuel Rail Recall whatever that was. The Gas cap cover would not close and had to be replaced. - Lots of other folks on this forum have had these same problems. They are common to the GS.
What really mystifies me is that the dash rattles were on the 2006 model and was never addressed at the factory. They are still putting out this problem. I got to know the foreman at the Lexus Dealership and he told me that it was a real problem, and he went to a Lexus Service Seminar to learn how to 'quiet rattles'. Putting this problem on the dealership is not the way to go.
I'd like to see Lexus succeed and be the car they used to be. Maybe someone from Lexus will see these consumer opinions from this forum.