JDR76

I also had an ES250 AWD loaner recently. My issue is not really with the ES in general, it's with the ES250. That engine was awful. Not just in power, but my goodness it was rough and grainy. I couldn't believe it was in a Lexus. Easily the most disappointing car I've driven in years, and beside the engine, I quite liked the car.

I have no desire to own an ES, but I get why, at least in the hybrid and 3.5V6 versions, they sell so well. But to go to an ES from the GS would, at least in my view, be a huge downgrade that I don't think I could swallow.

gs350noob

I see where you're comparing from with the ES to GS comparison. However I'm talking about switching from my '15 Camry to a '13 ES at least for now. I'm thinking that maybe the ES grows on me and I just end up with that long-term. If not I can always switch to a GS later if the ES is not my fave.

PGA71

iTrader: (3)

The ES is built on the Camry platform. I don't think this will do it for you is my opinion. It wouldn't for me.
I would be patient to find the GS you want.

gs350noob

Yup you're right. Not worth the trouble the more I think about it.

I will say though that the difference between the camry (at least the 2015 I have) and the ES is significant.

Also the ES is built on the Avalon platform not the Camry. Since 2007 I believe. I see where you're coming from though.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

The 450h is not slow either at all.

What year was the ES350? Up to 2012 it's was Camry based. 2013 ES350 on up is not Camry based.

PGA71

iTrader: (3)

From Car and Driver 2022 :
Car and Driver on Avalon 2022

"Toyota's flagship sedan, the 2022 Avalon, sports an aggressive look but underneath it's a big softie. Based on the mid-size Camry, the full-size Avalon offers either a V-6 or hybrid powertrain, front-wheel drive, and a spacious cabin that's all-day comfortable."

So we can all agree that ES is based on Avalon which is based on Camry.

gs350noob

It's a 2013. I don't think they'd give me much money for the Camry so I'd need to put up around $4K out the door at least to switch and I don't want the headache of trying to sell the Camry myself. I was intrigued with the deal because they have the car offered for $2500 under blue book. They've dropped their asking price by $5K over the last couple months as the car sits on the lot.

My thinking was that it may be quite a while before I find a GS and the Camry is on my nerves, but I'm probably overthinking it as is my tendency.

https://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/...706292435.html

gs350noob

Fair enough. I guess you could say the Avalon is a stretch camry and the ES is a luxury Avalon. Drive a 2015 camry and a 2013 ES and there's quite a difference.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

If you get a ES350 get a 13-15 Ultra Lux (UL) Package one only. They are J vin# cars and were still build in Japan. U/L Has more extra equipment than the most loaded GS350 Lux package. The ES350 that year ride and drive is hard to beat. Most don't understand the ES350 is NOT trying to be a GS. It does what it does excellent. That's why they sell so many. I had the GS350 and ES350 at the same time. I drove the crap out of the ES350 and never had but one problem in 150k miles. One 02 sensor, went thru some deep water. When taking a trip ES350 was #1 for drive and comfort to take.

This is a ES350 Base. NOO! Even have it listed as a 4cly when it's a 3.5 V6, that car looks trashed inside.

https://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/...706292435.html

PGA71

iTrader: (3)

100% agree with everything you said here.
The ES is an awesome entry level luxury car and they sell so many because of the price point and reliability.
When I owned an ES, it was extremely reliablle, pretty much bullet proof and wanted to continue with Lexus thus moving to GS.

The issue for @gs350noob is that he had the taste of the GS, which is leaps and bounds better than the Camry and ES, not FWD, and so much better power and handling among other amenities. It is difficult to go backwards and enjoy driving as much is my opinion.

GrandSedanFan

iTrader: (1)

My apologies, I was unclear. The 23 ES actually rolled less than my GS350 F-Sport on turn-in. I noticed the same thing with the NX loaner I had - I believe Lexus is tuning roll centers as part of their "Lexus Signature Driving Experience". The cars still feel floaty and soft, but they don't feel like they're going to roll over on their door handles. I am considering installing roll center adjusters in the front of my GS, but am concerned about the strength of the hardware, as those 2 bolts carry 1/4 of the weight of the car.

The power was adequate for cruising (I spend a lot of time driving my wife's 2.5i Legacy, which has similarly paltry power to weight), but yes, that engine is not nearly as smooth or refined as the 2GR.