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Question…. I’m adding an amp and subwoofer to my factory Mark Levinson system. This will give it the added fill it lacks. Has anyone done this and if so did you leave the factory subwoofer hooked up??
I'd think you need to make sure you don't duplicate frequencies with two different Subs. At the same time There are proper ways to balance a system. First one needs to understand the frequencies the existing sub is accomplishing. Then dial in the cross over on the new sub to go below that.
How are you mounting the new sub?
Are you installing this yourself? Using a sound meter to measure output? Adding a volume dial for the new sub?
You going for refinement? Bombastic loud seat in the pants rock out? Urban beats? Mid level punch?
I think we are going for different goals, I just wanted to add the powered sub into the spare to supplement the lower end of the base. The unit comes with a **** but I see no value in running it to the front. I also plan on swapping out the speakers in the doors and dash for FOCAL units while keeping the factory amp. I'm just looking to get a little more loudness while maintaining the clarity of the factory setup. Tuning it by ear as I'm over 40 and what sounds good to me will not sound good to others my days of using a RTA to make a "perfectly flat" response are behind me. I do wish you all the best.
I'll be brief and simple rather than drag this topic out, but there's a few aspects of audio reproduction to always keep in mind:
Sound is alternating high and low pressure waves propagating in a fluid over time.
Alternating Waves are hard to instinctively or intuitively figure out without a few laws of physics understood to a fair degree.
We are dealing with Sound Pressure Level (SPL), phase, frequency, and interactions like damping, nodes/cancellations, resonance, diffraction, reflection, etc Because there is a Time Domain component to sound (traveling at the speed of sound), nasty results can occur when these interactions mess up the response that makes it to your ears. So, just keep in mind that tossing equipment in a trunk and calling it a day MAY work, or it may be an unmitigated disaster.
Now let's get into some concerns with our specific situation. Our subwoofer is mounted on the back shelf. Bass output is a function of a woofer/subwoofer and it's enclosure, where applicable, because the front and back of the speaker cone produce waveforms 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Opposite waveforms colliding creates cancellation effects. An enclosure can be nothing at all, but the front and back wave must be separated to actually hear the bass output. This effect occurs on all speakers but it is directly correlated with frequency.
In addition, a subwoofer's electrical and mechanical parameters must pair with it's enclosure (including infinite baffle), and any enclosure change also changes the response and phase. This phase change can be optimized, where we see ported (bass reflex) subwoofer enclosures taking advantage of the otherwise cancelling rear wave, where the tuned port/vent is of a specific size and length that it causes the otherwise wasted rear cone output to shift phase and join the front wave, boosting output. Guess wrong, and your port can end up making fart sounds, canceling your sub, or even causing the sub damage.
If you want more bass (want to play lower frequencies louder), it is not beneficial typically to "supplement" the factory subwoofer. It would be better to replace.
Reasons:
Bass needs to propagate a wave to the listener. The factory subwoofer is mounted "infinite baffle" style, which means the design is such that the front cone wave is purposely separated from the backside, but there is no enclosure. Instead, the trunk itself becomes the enclosure. Let's say you buy a big 12" sub in a premade sealed enclosure. If you leave the factory sub in place, now you have a subwoofer inside a subwoofer enclosure (trunk+factory sub), the pressure wave of the new sub will also act on the factory sub cone, and due to the response difference between a sealed box and an infinite baffle, you will get interesting results if nothing else.
If you remove the factory sub, now you have at least a "hole" to allow the aftermarket subwoofer wave a place to exit and propagate through to the cabin. Very low frequencies, btw, will be large enough to probably vibrate right through to the cabin, so I'm not really talking about frequencies in the 10-25hz range. But 30ish-80ish, the wavelength is short enough to be affected by all the above-explained factors.
There are problems with the best sealed or ported enclosure solution for our cars, and it is centered around the isolated trunk space. It is MUCH less an issue with SUV, wagon or hatchback cabins. I personally think super-sealed up trunks like the one we have with our GS deserve a different solution, I'll get to that in a min.
Before you start replacing factory stuff, I highly recommend optimizing it. For me, my first move was to add Constrained Layer Damper (CLD) or you might call it Dynamat or deadener. I recommend a Butyl constraining layer and foil barrier product, specifically for me it is KnuKonceptz Kolossus that is my go-to. You see, the factory sub is actually quite powerful, and Lexus didn't fully deaden the back shelf. You can add CLD strategically to the underside and/or the top side to prevent resonance and cancellation effects. Effort to block off all the small holes and stop the metal from vibrating out of phase with the bass output (equal and opposite reaction) will help. CLD converts vibration energy into heat (extremely inefficiently so not much heat is actually generated), so when the subwoofer pushes a wave out, the rest of the metal surrounding it does not vibrate out of phase as much. You could also strengthen the rear shelf with steel welded or stiff wood or other material fixed up against it, but that lacks practicality. Plugging up the small holes also stops the back wave from interfering with the front wave, which is also effective. I recommend doing this plus add some neoprene or other closed-cell foam with contact adhesive over your deadening efforts. With left over deadening and foam, you can also tackle the resonant spots in the front doors, and some other buzzing places in the car. You can do some sine wave sweeps or frequency specific tests to isolate and solve for these resonant issues.
Still want to improve the factory system, but want to do it "right"?
Consider replacing the factory infinite baffle sub with another infinite baffle (IB) solution. The factory sub is in the perfect place for in-cabin bass response. It just needs to be a bigger sub, with more excursion, and with more available power to be amazing. So, if I had a fair budget (time and skill I got...for this, anyway), I would source a decent 10-12" infinite baffle subwoofer and find a way to mount it under where the factory one mounts. I would also tear the back end of the car down to nothing and use materials like expanding foam, deadening material, etc. and seal off the trunk area from the cabin area as best as possible. An IB sub needs a stiff suspension and efficient motor to be effective, so I'd have to do some shopping because many of my go-to favorites have disappeared, but the home audio world knows and loves IB solutions.
Finally, to finish the topic off, we would need to properly "tap" an electrical signal, as clean and pure as possible, and use that as our input. We would also need to put a DSP/processor in the system to compensate for phase/time delay, and cabin interactions. We would use a mic to measure the response at our listening position(s), and then tune our DSP to compensate so the response matched the desired result. A few grand would do it correctly, as amplifiers, DSP's, subwoofers, copper power and signal wires, etc all add up these days.
I added a Kicker 46HS10 that I had from a prior car. I mainly use add in more bass while I decrease the OEM sub. I have to keep the level of the OEM one lower so the fabric doesn't rattle.
I ran a 4 AWG power cable through a grommet on the passenger side.
Down through the passenger door sills
Up through the rear passenger seat. There is a space that allows passage (shine a light from trunk to see it)
And into the trunk area
I used some distribution blocks for power and ground (ground I got from one of the mounting bolts for the amp). I used the distribution blocks to also add a 12v outlet in the trunk.
I used some T-taps for the left and right +/-. I know t taps aren't cool or proper. Here, I initially used the rear left/right but found there wasn't as much bass, even with amp gain maxed out. I switched to using the OEM sub +/- as the "left/right". That help tremendously, and amp's gain is now only 35ish percent. I did have to tap into the OEM amp turn on signal, as the Kickers 12v detection didn't work.
Funny enough, I don't have a picture of the amp/sub... But just imagine a flat black box sitting in the corner.
I'll be brief and simple rather than drag this topic out, but there's a few aspects of audio reproduction to always keep in mind:
Sound is alternating high and low pressure waves propagating in a fluid over time.
Alternating Waves are hard to instinctively or intuitively figure out without a few laws of physics understood to a fair degree.
We are dealing with Sound Pressure Level (SPL), phase, frequency, and interactions like damping, nodes/cancellations, resonance, diffraction, reflection, etc Because there is a Time Domain component to sound (traveling at the speed of sound), nasty results can occur when these interactions mess up the response that makes it to your ears. So, just keep in mind that tossing equipment in a trunk and calling it a day MAY work, or it may be an unmitigated disaster.
Now let's get into some concerns with our specific situation. Our subwoofer is mounted on the back shelf. Bass output is a function of a woofer/subwoofer and it's enclosure, where applicable, because the front and back of the speaker cone produce waveforms 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Opposite waveforms colliding creates cancellation effects. An enclosure can be nothing at all, but the front and back wave must be separated to actually hear the bass output. This effect occurs on all speakers but it is directly correlated with frequency.
In addition, a subwoofer's electrical and mechanical parameters must pair with it's enclosure (including infinite baffle), and any enclosure change also changes the response and phase. This phase change can be optimized, where we see ported (bass reflex) subwoofer enclosures taking advantage of the otherwise cancelling rear wave, where the tuned port/vent is of a specific size and length that it causes the otherwise wasted rear cone output to shift phase and join the front wave, boosting output. Guess wrong, and your port can end up making fart sounds, canceling your sub, or even causing the sub damage.
If you want more bass (want to play lower frequencies louder), it is not beneficial typically to "supplement" the factory subwoofer. It would be better to replace.
Reasons:
Bass needs to propagate a wave to the listener. The factory subwoofer is mounted "infinite baffle" style, which means the design is such that the front cone wave is purposely separated from the backside, but there is no enclosure. Instead, the trunk itself becomes the enclosure. Let's say you buy a big 12" sub in a premade sealed enclosure. If you leave the factory sub in place, now you have a subwoofer inside a subwoofer enclosure (trunk+factory sub), the pressure wave of the new sub will also act on the factory sub cone, and due to the response difference between a sealed box and an infinite baffle, you will get interesting results if nothing else.
If you remove the factory sub, now you have at least a "hole" to allow the aftermarket subwoofer wave a place to exit and propagate through to the cabin. Very low frequencies, btw, will be large enough to probably vibrate right through to the cabin, so I'm not really talking about frequencies in the 10-25hz range. But 30ish-80ish, the wavelength is short enough to be affected by all the above-explained factors.
There are problems with the best sealed or ported enclosure solution for our cars, and it is centered around the isolated trunk space. It is MUCH less an issue with SUV, wagon or hatchback cabins. I personally think super-sealed up trunks like the one we have with our GS deserve a different solution, I'll get to that in a min.
Before you start replacing factory stuff, I highly recommend optimizing it. For me, my first move was to add Constrained Layer Damper (CLD) or you might call it Dynamat or deadener. I recommend a Butyl constraining layer and foil barrier product, specifically for me it is KnuKonceptz Kolossus that is my go-to. You see, the factory sub is actually quite powerful, and Lexus didn't fully deaden the back shelf. You can add CLD strategically to the underside and/or the top side to prevent resonance and cancellation effects. Effort to block off all the small holes and stop the metal from vibrating out of phase with the bass output (equal and opposite reaction) will help. CLD converts vibration energy into heat (extremely inefficiently so not much heat is actually generated), so when the subwoofer pushes a wave out, the rest of the metal surrounding it does not vibrate out of phase as much. You could also strengthen the rear shelf with steel welded or stiff wood or other material fixed up against it, but that lacks practicality. Plugging up the small holes also stops the back wave from interfering with the front wave, which is also effective. I recommend doing this plus add some neoprene or other closed-cell foam with contact adhesive over your deadening efforts. With left over deadening and foam, you can also tackle the resonant spots in the front doors, and some other buzzing places in the car. You can do some sine wave sweeps or frequency specific tests to isolate and solve for these resonant issues.
Still want to improve the factory system, but want to do it "right"?
Consider replacing the factory infinite baffle sub with another infinite baffle (IB) solution. The factory sub is in the perfect place for in-cabin bass response. It just needs to be a bigger sub, with more excursion, and with more available power to be amazing. So, if I had a fair budget (time and skill I got...for this, anyway), I would source a decent 10-12" infinite baffle subwoofer and find a way to mount it under where the factory one mounts. I would also tear the back end of the car down to nothing and use materials like expanding foam, deadening material, etc. and seal off the trunk area from the cabin area as best as possible. An IB sub needs a stiff suspension and efficient motor to be effective, so I'd have to do some shopping because many of my go-to favorites have disappeared, but the home audio world knows and loves IB solutions.
Finally, to finish the topic off, we would need to properly "tap" an electrical signal, as clean and pure as possible, and use that as our input. We would also need to put a DSP/processor in the system to compensate for phase/time delay, and cabin interactions. We would use a mic to measure the response at our listening position(s), and then tune our DSP to compensate so the response matched the desired result. A few grand would do it correctly, as amplifiers, DSP's, subwoofers, copper power and signal wires, etc all add up these days.
I have forgotten more than this guy mentions! A good installer will get you to a very expensive place or sell you speakers and you'll be chasing a rabbit down a hole of disappointment. Better thicker speakers are not always better if the amps, impedance, etc are not all in synch. understanding the nuances of lower frequencies and how things cancel themselves or create a very unwanted "boom" is not simple as adding an additional sub. My suggestion previously was not entirely correct. I do believe if you have a ML systems doing what he suggested and put the funds towards that.
A car is a very tricky place for audio!!! More is not always better. Respect midrange, noise, damping effects, and the nuances/laws of frequencies.
Great sound is being able to enjoy it at reasonable volume without fatigue.
Yeah, it's my passion/obsession for sure. I knew not everyone would like my answer to the question, but it is correct and rooted in physics, etc. as well as direct experience, and lots of it.
Historically, I have a stack of vehicles I've owned where I've gone down the rabbit hole searching for sonic bliss. With few exceptions, there are no shortcuts, and no easy solutions to making a system objectively better than a modern well-designed OEM system. And what I mean to say is you can absolutely make it better, but you have to take a ground-up perspective and it will cost money...Even if your speaker budget is modest (because you can usually find a DIY driver to fit the purpose at a relative bargain), you can't skip the DSP, deadening, installation materials, and wiring/interconnection expenses and still get optimal results.
So I maintain It isn't a popular answer, but it is correct. A calibrated mic and some free software (REW) can help anybody realize these truths for themselves, with a bit of practice and a somewhat steep but probably manageable learning curve. That's usually a good place to start if you are after a true improvement (subjective as well as objective.). Measure what you got, and then plan for how you're going to get from A to B.
Start with deadening like I stated before, though. You might get what you are lacking from the effort. It can only improve the OEM response, by going the extra mile where the OEM "skimped out".
I moved to a 2019 LS500 about 18mos ago in part because the quietness of the car and the insane 2400 watt 23 speaker ML OEM. 4 speakers in the ceiling. The ambience of a quiet car with textured bass response and details powered thru is awesome. Double paned glass and a lot of sound material in the 4900 LB beast. Very tasty audio.
source using my phone to stream Tidal or CD's. I do stream Sirius via my phone once in a. while.
My GS was more fun to drive and was a lovely car. The LS500 is a nice place to spend time in.
06-13-24, 08:40 AM
Adding a subwoofer
