4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
05-12-11, 06:28 PM
#1891
Super Moderator
The IS F didn't really set a new benchmark, it just offered the Lexus way of a high end sport saloon. The Lexus way meant great brakes, BBS wheels, great interior, RELIABLE, great sound and other attributes. The IS F is the only one without a gas guzzler tax. It also gave people who were happy with Japanese brands an option to go to. We have a large amount of ex INfniit drivers in an IS F for instance. If you want a Japanese super sport saloon, your only option is the IS F, likely to be joined by the GS F. You also have a bunch of Lexus owners that would like to stick to the brand who cannot b/c no GS F is offered. I believe once its not completely lame, they will buy that car even if its down on power.
I mean the RS6 in Europe makes 572hp for what 3 year now. So even the new M5/E63 hasn't beat that mark. Yet the RS6 hasn't won one comparison.
I'm not getting my hopes up for a 500-550hp GS F. If it happen that is great. If it doesn't oh well. I'd be happy with 450-500hp in a GS F.
I mean the RS6 in Europe makes 572hp for what 3 year now. So even the new M5/E63 hasn't beat that mark. Yet the RS6 hasn't won one comparison.
I'm not getting my hopes up for a 500-550hp GS F. If it happen that is great. If it doesn't oh well. I'd be happy with 450-500hp in a GS F.
And it's OK for the M5/E63 to not stand out,they are already established, they are still an AMG benz and a ///M car nomatter what.
Didn't you notice that they can make any new model and nobody dares to really trash on them about anything nomatter what ?
But a sub 500 Hp GS-F that can't run with the established players would be laughed off as lame ......
05-12-11, 06:34 PM
#1892
Lexus Champion
i can't really understand the notion of "just be happy that lexus has a gsf". yeah it's good if they make a gsf, but if it's not going to compete or stack up well with m5 and e63, what good does that do for lexus? nothing. in fact, it will probably help to kill the f-line.
the isf goes very well against m3 and e63, it gained lexus respect and positioned the f line. the lfa, although i think it's so much of a halo car, does help to strengthen that name tag. but if the gsf falls short of going head to head with m5 and e63, it would suck. i have said quite a few times, customers in this segment willing to pay 100k for the car, as much as i don't like it, hp is quite important to them. that's part of their bragging right. performance is important but it's hardly the top criteria, a lot of people in this segment they don't even know how to push their cars correctly.
so i still think lexus has to do it carefully and smartly. otherwise, we will see the whole l-tuned mess all over again. just because they do it doesn't mean it's alright. just because lexus decided to put together the isc doesn't mean make it any prettier. just because lexus decided to make an all eco hybrid doesn't make the HS fail any less
the isf goes very well against m3 and e63, it gained lexus respect and positioned the f line. the lfa, although i think it's so much of a halo car, does help to strengthen that name tag. but if the gsf falls short of going head to head with m5 and e63, it would suck. i have said quite a few times, customers in this segment willing to pay 100k for the car, as much as i don't like it, hp is quite important to them. that's part of their bragging right. performance is important but it's hardly the top criteria, a lot of people in this segment they don't even know how to push their cars correctly.
so i still think lexus has to do it carefully and smartly. otherwise, we will see the whole l-tuned mess all over again. just because they do it doesn't mean it's alright. just because lexus decided to put together the isc doesn't mean make it any prettier. just because lexus decided to make an all eco hybrid doesn't make the HS fail any less
If it isn't a true competitor to the German full size, super sedans...ie. +500 hp...they would be better off skipping it all together.
Lexus obviously listened to their customers and made amazing changes to the IS F in a very short period of time, making it a true competitor to the Germans in every aspect.
However, if they bring a "weak" version of the GS F to start it will be the start of the demise of the F brand.
The IS F didn't really set a new benchmark, it just offered the Lexus way of a high end sport saloon. The Lexus way meant great brakes, BBS wheels, great interior, RELIABLE, great sound and other attributes. The IS F is the only one without a gas guzzler tax.
Lexus brought something to the table that was equal to the Germans....out of the gate. With that being said, it wasn't actually my first choice.
Every vehicle in this class has it's own strengths and weaknesses....regardless of what the BMW fanbois and a certain moderator/Stig have to say.
It also gave people who were happy with Japanese brands an option to go to. We have a large amount of ex INfniit drivers in an IS F for instance. If you want a Japanese super sport saloon, your only option is the IS F, likely to be joined by the GS F. You also have a bunch of Lexus owners that would like to stick to the brand who cannot b/c no GS F is offered. I believe once its not completely lame, they will buy that car even if its down on power.
I've been through Ford, GM, Lexus, MB, and BMW in the past five years and wouldn't buy any one of them again because of anything relating to a certain geographic stereotype. People that "only" buy Germans, Japanese, or American are simply missing out on some outstanding vehicles.
Lets be honest the LFA for all its superbness does't set any performance benchmark either and its 375k. How can you? The mark moves seemingly every month. I think Lexus should offer higher power but not lose reliability in that process. We know the IS F has been as reliable as the best of any Lexus.
The LF A is an extraordinary car that has attributes far beyond it's performance attributes. Will be interesting to see how hard they tweak the 'Ring version in light of the performance beating it's been taking lately.
I mean the RS6 in Europe makes 572hp for what 3 year now. So even the new M5/E63 hasn't beat that mark. Yet the RS6 hasn't won one comparison.
I'm not getting my hopes up for a 500-550hp GS F. If it happen that is great. If it doesn't oh well. I'd be happy with 450-500hp in a GS F.
05-12-11, 06:35 PM
#1893
I think the way I see it, even if the GS-F only got 416 hp from the IS-F, I still would glad it exist so I can buy a GS from the factory with all the F equipments........Brembos, sport seats, metal padels, aggressive body work/wheels/suspension.......etc.
I see it as better then nothing. However lame it might seem compare to the M5/E63, is still way more aggressive then a GS460.
But I understand you guy's point of if it is lame, don't make it at all.
Another point is, once they make one model of the GS-F, even if this one is down on power, there will be the next one. If they don't make one at all, they might never make one.
I see it as better then nothing. However lame it might seem compare to the M5/E63, is still way more aggressive then a GS460.
But I understand you guy's point of if it is lame, don't make it at all.
Another point is, once they make one model of the GS-F, even if this one is down on power, there will be the next one. If they don't make one at all, they might never make one.
05-12-11, 06:36 PM
#1894
Guest
Posts: n/a
The IS-F is not down close to 100 hp compared to the AMG and M in it's class. A sub 500 hp GS-F could very well be when it won't even be introduced until 2 years later.
And it's OK for the M5/E63 to not stand out,they are already established, they are still an AMG benz and a ///M car nomatter what.
Didn't you notice that they can make any new model and nobody dares to really trash on them about anything nomatter what ?
But a sub 500 Hp GS-F that can't run with the established players would be laughed off as lame ......
And it's OK for the M5/E63 to not stand out,they are already established, they are still an AMG benz and a ///M car nomatter what.
Didn't you notice that they can make any new model and nobody dares to really trash on them about anything nomatter what ?
But a sub 500 Hp GS-F that can't run with the established players would be laughed off as lame ......
What are the power numbers now? So M5/E63/Pan Turbo/RS6 are all 500hp plus? The S6 has 450hp but its not a true high performance car to the level of the RS6, more like a bridge to it (though it was one of the FINEST and most complete cars I've driven).
Hmm, I see what you are saying...kinda crazy to think 500 is the new 300
....Well without forced induction or a new engine or a F/I there is no way that 5.0 is making 100hp a liter. Well considering how the IS F at the time was very competitive with power as you stated. 416hp, M3 414hp, RS4, 420hp..then C63 comes with 463hp or so...
So it would seem that Lexus does compete with what the Germans are offering at the next level, looking at what they did with the IS F. I just would be kind of shocked.
05-12-11, 06:38 PM
#1896
Guest
Posts: n/a
in no way am i expecting the gsf (nor isf and lfa for that matter) to set any benchmark at all. sorry to say, but i don't think lexus is there yet. however, i do think the isf offer a very very competitive performance vehicle against where it belongs.
let me ask this. if hp is really that unimportant, why did lexus choose to release the isf at "400+ hp" and then later make it just above the hp number of m3, and stated that it had the most power in its segment (as one of their promotion line) until mb decided to screw things up by doing the 450hp c63?
like i stated in my post, most of the owners in this segment they don't really know how to drive (and i mean it). after going to m school, i know it very clearly. after seeing how some of these people drive, it can't be any clearer.
however, that's exactly where the problem is. the small crowd who has 100k to spare, want reliability over performance (??), and go after japanese heritage? honestly to me that sounds like trying to create a segment for the heck of it just so lexus can fit right in with the gsf.
if lexus is even seriously about the purpose of the f line, they are trying to go head to head with the euro on their lineup. there is no denial on that intention given their approach with the isf marketing. if that's what they want to play, then they need to play along the line, otherwise magazines will continue to unfortunately put the gsf together with e63 and m5 and the gsf will be in not-so-good situation. i think the key is to face the reality of what lexus is trying to position themselves against, what they need to do to gain market (not taking over the market), and how others are going to look at it (not the small crowd).
and another way i look at your message, if most of the people in this segment (those writing the checks, not the one talking about the cars) can't really drive and they want the cars for the cool factors, then what make the gsf anywhere attractive when it doesn't have close to competitive power?
let me ask this. if hp is really that unimportant, why did lexus choose to release the isf at "400+ hp" and then later make it just above the hp number of m3, and stated that it had the most power in its segment (as one of their promotion line) until mb decided to screw things up by doing the 450hp c63?
like i stated in my post, most of the owners in this segment they don't really know how to drive (and i mean it). after going to m school, i know it very clearly. after seeing how some of these people drive, it can't be any clearer.
however, that's exactly where the problem is. the small crowd who has 100k to spare, want reliability over performance (??), and go after japanese heritage? honestly to me that sounds like trying to create a segment for the heck of it just so lexus can fit right in with the gsf.
if lexus is even seriously about the purpose of the f line, they are trying to go head to head with the euro on their lineup. there is no denial on that intention given their approach with the isf marketing. if that's what they want to play, then they need to play along the line, otherwise magazines will continue to unfortunately put the gsf together with e63 and m5 and the gsf will be in not-so-good situation. i think the key is to face the reality of what lexus is trying to position themselves against, what they need to do to gain market (not taking over the market), and how others are going to look at it (not the small crowd).
and another way i look at your message, if most of the people in this segment (those writing the checks, not the one talking about the cars) can't really drive and they want the cars for the cool factors, then what make the gsf anywhere attractive when it doesn't have close to competitive power?
. Totally agree it would be kinda whack to be 20% down on power BUT I wouldn't be too upset for a first effort. I mean the M5 went from what 284, to 330, to 400, to 500 to 550hp.
05-12-11, 06:39 PM
#1897
What are the power numbers now? So M5/E63/Pan Turbo/RS6 are all 500hp plus? The S6 has 450hp but its not a true high performance car to the level of the RS6, more like a bridge to it (though it was one of the FINEST and most complete cars I've driven).
Hmm, I see what you are saying...kinda crazy to think 500 is the new 300....Well without forced induction or a new engine or a F/I there is no way that 5.0 is making 100hp a liter.
Well considering how the IS F at the time was very competitive with power as you stated. 416hp, M3 414hp, RS4, 420hp..then C63 comes with 463hp or so...
So it would seem that Lexus does compete with what the Germans are offering at the next level, looking at what they did with the IS F. I just would be kind of shocked.
Hmm, I see what you are saying...kinda crazy to think 500 is the new 300
....Well without forced induction or a new engine or a F/I there is no way that 5.0 is making 100hp a liter. Well considering how the IS F at the time was very competitive with power as you stated. 416hp, M3 414hp, RS4, 420hp..then C63 comes with 463hp or so...
So it would seem that Lexus does compete with what the Germans are offering at the next level, looking at what they did with the IS F. I just would be kind of shocked.
i truly believe they have the ability to do it, but just about how they get over their mentality and look at the market / competition
05-12-11, 06:44 PM
#1898
Guest
Posts: n/a
+10000
If it isn't a true competitor to the German full size, super sedans...ie. +500 hp...they would be better off skipping it all together.
Lexus obviously listened to their customers and made amazing changes to the IS F in a very short period of time, making it a true competitor to the Germans in every aspect.
However, if they bring a "weak" version of the GS F to start it will be the start of the demise of the F brand.
The exact same thing could be said about the IS F/M3/C63. None of these cars are true track cars.
+1000000
Lexus brought something to the table that was equal to the Germans....out of the gate. With that being said, it wasn't actually my first choice.
Every vehicle in this class has it's own strengths and weaknesses....regardless of what the BMW fanbois and a certain moderator/Stig have to say.
This "buy Japanese" logic is weak. I still don't see how this "brand loyalty" is any different than the badge humping that goes on with the German marques. Buy what you want, according to what suits your needs.
I've been through Ford, GM, Lexus, MB, and BMW in the past five years and wouldn't buy any one of them again because of anything relating to a certain geographic stereotype. People that "only" buy Germans, Japanese, or American are simply missing out on some outstanding vehicles.
We're not allowed to say this in the LF A forum....certain owners get their panties in a bunch.
The LF A is an extraordinary car that has attributes far beyond it's performance attributes. Will be interesting to see how hard they tweak the 'Ring version in light of the performance beating it's been taking lately.
There is nothing factual that has been released on the performance of the F10 M5. It is rumoured to be right in the 560-580 hp range, so we'll see how it stacks up.
As I've said repeatedly in the past and what Henry also stated....if they are sub 500 hp in the new GS F, sadly, it will be a joke and not worth building.
If it isn't a true competitor to the German full size, super sedans...ie. +500 hp...they would be better off skipping it all together.
Lexus obviously listened to their customers and made amazing changes to the IS F in a very short period of time, making it a true competitor to the Germans in every aspect.
However, if they bring a "weak" version of the GS F to start it will be the start of the demise of the F brand.
The exact same thing could be said about the IS F/M3/C63. None of these cars are true track cars.
+1000000
Lexus brought something to the table that was equal to the Germans....out of the gate. With that being said, it wasn't actually my first choice.
Every vehicle in this class has it's own strengths and weaknesses....regardless of what the BMW fanbois and a certain moderator/Stig have to say.
This "buy Japanese" logic is weak. I still don't see how this "brand loyalty" is any different than the badge humping that goes on with the German marques. Buy what you want, according to what suits your needs.
I've been through Ford, GM, Lexus, MB, and BMW in the past five years and wouldn't buy any one of them again because of anything relating to a certain geographic stereotype. People that "only" buy Germans, Japanese, or American are simply missing out on some outstanding vehicles.
We're not allowed to say this in the LF A forum....certain owners get their panties in a bunch.
The LF A is an extraordinary car that has attributes far beyond it's performance attributes. Will be interesting to see how hard they tweak the 'Ring version in light of the performance beating it's been taking lately.
There is nothing factual that has been released on the performance of the F10 M5. It is rumoured to be right in the 560-580 hp range, so we'll see how it stacks up.
As I've said repeatedly in the past and what Henry also stated....if they are sub 500 hp in the new GS F, sadly, it will be a joke and not worth building.
I still feel Lexus being the only Japanese brand here is an advantage for them. People are very happy with Lexus and those that have moved up in life would now have an option in the GS F instead of having to leave. We have seen in the IS F forum those that left the Germans for the IS F due to constant problems or the desire for something different than the usual white M3 with BBS LMs.
(which still looks ****).A Porsche Pan Turbo is what a 4.8 liter with a turbo at 500hp, 550 with the S. I just don't see Lexus there yet with a sedan.
05-12-11, 06:46 PM
#1899
Guest
Posts: n/a
05-12-11, 06:46 PM
#1900
I think the way I see it, even if the GS-F only got 416 hp from the IS-F, I still would glad it exist so I can buy a GS from the factory with all the F equipments........Brembos, sport seats, metal padels, aggressive body work/wheels/suspension.......etc.
I see it as better then nothing. However lame it might seem compare to the M5/E63, is still way more aggressive then a GS460.
But I understand you guy's point of if it is lame, don't make it at all.
Another point is, once they make one model of the GS-F, even if this one is down on power, there will be the next one. If they don't make one at all, they might never make one.
I see it as better then nothing. However lame it might seem compare to the M5/E63, is still way more aggressive then a GS460.
But I understand you guy's point of if it is lame, don't make it at all.
Another point is, once they make one model of the GS-F, even if this one is down on power, there will be the next one. If they don't make one at all, they might never make one.
I would probably say they would call it GS500 Sport.
I dont see why they cant slap an SC on it, they have been doing that with their engines in Japan, even Lotus picked it up for their GR V6 purchase.
05-12-11, 06:50 PM
#1901
Guest
Posts: n/a
I find this American fascination with hp appalling but hey, we are all different.
I would probably say they would call it GS500 Sport.
I dont see why they cant slap an SC on it, they have been doing that with their engines in Japan, even Lotus picked it up for their GR V6 purchase.
I would probably say they would call it GS500 Sport.
I dont see why they cant slap an SC on it, they have been doing that with their engines in Japan, even Lotus picked it up for their GR V6 purchase.
, they got the vast majority of 500hp+ cars. Pretty much all EXCEPT the Lexus LFA
05-12-11, 07:05 PM
#1902
Lexus Champion
It's a great car....I just spend too much time on the BMW boards hearing it.
There is absolutely no question that Lexus is capable.
What is in question is if they choose to actually make a firm commitment to offering true performance variants.
I agree with you 3 that a sub crazy hp GS F might be "weak" BUT I don't see it as the end of the F brand, its still in its infancy. If it is a high performance GS with 450-500hp that is good to me. I can barely extract everything from 300 or 340hp without breaking the law. I admit it would lose out on bragging rights with is HUGE in this class, especially for those that don't buy them
I just don't see how it would not, at the very least, badly damage the F brand. The IS F has progressed faster and further than many could have imagined. The LF A is still brand new, but it has demonstrated that Lexus can do things that other manufacturers aren't even willing to try (cough..cough...BMW).
As someone who is seriously considering a full size, performance sedan for our next vehicle, I can safely say that the GS F won't even get a look when compared to the F10 M5 or Pan 4S/TT.
I still feel Lexus being the only Japanese brand here is an advantage for them. People are very happy with Lexus and those that have moved up in life would now have an option in the GS F instead of having to leave. We have seen in the IS F forum those that left the Germans for the IS F due to constant problems or the desire for something different than the usual white M3 with BBS LMs. (which still looks ****).
(which still looks ****).
A Porsche Pan Turbo is what a 4.8 liter with a turbo at 500hp, 550 with the S. I just don't see Lexus there yet with a sedan.
Regular TT is holding it's value pretty well.
Decent one is still in the $125-130K range. Still, simply, not enough of them on the road to see them dump yet.
05-12-11, 07:19 PM
#1903
05-12-11, 07:29 PM
#1904
Lexus needs more options like MB or BMW,,,we need v6, v8, sports package, coupe, hybrid, convertible, GS-F, GS-F coupe, and GS-F convertible,,,,,BTW screw the hp numbers i just want to see more interior options than just tan, grey and black,,,
,,,BTW screw the hp numbers i just want to see more interior options than just tan, grey and black,,,
05-12-11, 07:32 PM
#1905
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just kidding man.
It's a great car....I just spend too much time on the BMW boards hearing it.
This.
There is absolutely no question that Lexus is capable.
What is in question is if they choose to actually make a firm commitment to offering true performance variants.
I hope you're right.
I just don't see how it would not, at the very least, badly damage the F brand. The IS F has progressed faster and further than many could have imagined. The LF A is still brand new, but it has demonstrated that Lexus can do things that other manufacturers aren't even willing to try (cough..cough...BMW).
As someone who is seriously considering a full size, performance sedan for our next vehicle, I can safely say that the GS F won't even get a look when compared to the F10 M5 or Pan 4S/TT.
I maybe wasn't clear in my previous post. I actually know that you're right Mike, in that some people will gravitate towards a certain geographic brand. I still think it's wrong and people with blinders on are missing out.
Commonly thought that they're underrated like the GT R...and most Porsches for that matter. How else can you explain the ridiculous numbers the Pan TT puts down?
Regular TT is holding it's value pretty well.
Decent one is still in the $125-130K range. Still, simply, not enough of them on the road to see them dump yet.
It's a great car....I just spend too much time on the BMW boards hearing it.
This.
There is absolutely no question that Lexus is capable.
What is in question is if they choose to actually make a firm commitment to offering true performance variants.
I hope you're right.
I just don't see how it would not, at the very least, badly damage the F brand. The IS F has progressed faster and further than many could have imagined. The LF A is still brand new, but it has demonstrated that Lexus can do things that other manufacturers aren't even willing to try (cough..cough...BMW).
As someone who is seriously considering a full size, performance sedan for our next vehicle, I can safely say that the GS F won't even get a look when compared to the F10 M5 or Pan 4S/TT.
I maybe wasn't clear in my previous post. I actually know that you're right Mike, in that some people will gravitate towards a certain geographic brand. I still think it's wrong and people with blinders on are missing out.
Commonly thought that they're underrated like the GT R...and most Porsches for that matter. How else can you explain the ridiculous numbers the Pan TT puts down?
Regular TT is holding it's value pretty well.
Decent one is still in the $125-130K range. Still, simply, not enough of them on the road to see them dump yet.