4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
04-26-10, 11:01 AM
#451
What you're saying about power is a little bit shortsighted. Up until a few months ago the M45 had only 325hp, the BMW 550i had 360hp, etc. The GS has only recently been outmatched for power, and the V6 model is still more than competitive. When the GS came out in 2006 it would have been nice if it came out with new engines, but even then, the old engines were competitive enough (not best in class but far from worst in class).
The GS 300 had 245hp when Mercedes had 275, BMW was at 255, and Infiniti was at 280. They bumped it up the following year and the engine is still one of the best in class, but Lexus strategy has been far from aggressive. The V6 has been plenty competitive and still is, especially considering it's efficiency and frugality.
Only thing I agree with you on is dynamics. The other "problems" you listed weren't really problems. Only reason they're problems now is because all of the competition has just been freshly remodeled.
04-26-10, 11:08 AM
#452
I also want to say that nearly every 550i, E550i or M45 that I see in my area has the M Sport/AMG Appearance/Sport package. While "what I see in my area" is hardly scientific, I think it's also something to think about. It makes me wonder if the GS is even on these people's radar at all, considering that it's the least sporty and does not offer a comparable package.
Is a V8 variant that much more desirable with the sports package? Is a lack of a Sport package on the V8 what is killing GS 460 sales? Or is it just a coincidence?
Is a V8 variant that much more desirable with the sports package? Is a lack of a Sport package on the V8 what is killing GS 460 sales? Or is it just a coincidence?
04-26-10, 11:34 AM
#453
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When the GS debuted, the 430 had 290hp while BMW, Infiniti, and Mercedes were at 330-350HP, leaving Lexus 40-60hp short of the competition. In 08 they dropped in the detuned 4.6L V8 but BMW went up to 360, Jaguar to 385, and Mercedes to 382. Even then, the performance numbers make the GS 460 look far more than 18hp behind the 550i. Lexus has never been a performance player in the V8 segment with this car, no matter how you want to look at it.
The GS 300 had 245hp when Mercedes had 275, BMW was at 255, and Infiniti was at 280. They bumped it up the following year and the engine is still one of the best in class, but Lexus strategy has been far from aggressive. The V6 has been plenty competitive and still is, especially considering it's efficiency and frugality.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if the GS was more competitive from the get-go it wouldn't have fallen so sorely behind the rush of new models.
The GS 300 had 245hp when Mercedes had 275, BMW was at 255, and Infiniti was at 280. They bumped it up the following year and the engine is still one of the best in class, but Lexus strategy has been far from aggressive. The V6 has been plenty competitive and still is, especially considering it's efficiency and frugality.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if the GS was more competitive from the get-go it wouldn't have fallen so sorely behind the rush of new models.
Also FWIW the GS300/GS350 were priced more along the lines of the now defunct 528i which only had 230hp.
I agree on your point that the GS needs a sport package akin to what is offered in the LS Sport. No one is buying the overpriced F Sport dealer installed accessories.
04-26-10, 11:41 AM
#454
Lexus Fanatic
I have discussed it several times before so I won't bore you guys again, but I think the failure of the 3GS is attributed to several different factors.
Design - the exterior really did not age that well, IMO. It looked sleek for the first year but quickly became bland when parked next to the competition. The one thing the car had going for it - low and wide with a narrow window line- is what really killed interior space and comfort. The lack if interesting wheel options, a sport package, or an aero kit didn't help either. The interior also looked good in the first year or two, but (like the exterior) was quickly outdone by nearly every competitor. Lexus continues to miss the boat with interior colors and combinations, IMO.
Power - The GS 300's engine was adequate but lackluster, and the debut took place directly in the middle of the luxury segment's horsepower war. Lexus chose not to play and it bit them in the ***, IMO. The car sold well enough in it's first year but I can't help but wonder what it would have been like if they came out of the gate with 342hp V8 and 303hp V6. Still to this day, the GS 460 has the least powerful V8 in it's class and least impressive performance figures.
Dynamics - This is where I could go on for hours but I will keep this short and sweet. 1) AWFUL power steering that they never corrected. 2) The handling and demeanor of the car really never felt capable or sporty. 3) The ES 350 does 8/10ths of what the GS does at 3/4 of the price, for most consumers.
In summary...the 4GS needs to have some PASSION like the 2GS did. Passion in the design, passion in the engineering, and passion in the execution. By all measures I look at the current car as a space-filler. Lexus said, "Hey we need to redesign the GS because we need a midsize RWD sedan. Can you guys come up with something?" The result is plain to see, and completely lacks the zeal or (once again) passion that the car previously had.
Better interior color combinations, more wheel options, and a sport package are MUST-HAVE features this time around, IMO.
Design - the exterior really did not age that well, IMO. It looked sleek for the first year but quickly became bland when parked next to the competition. The one thing the car had going for it - low and wide with a narrow window line- is what really killed interior space and comfort. The lack if interesting wheel options, a sport package, or an aero kit didn't help either. The interior also looked good in the first year or two, but (like the exterior) was quickly outdone by nearly every competitor. Lexus continues to miss the boat with interior colors and combinations, IMO.
Power - The GS 300's engine was adequate but lackluster, and the debut took place directly in the middle of the luxury segment's horsepower war. Lexus chose not to play and it bit them in the ***, IMO. The car sold well enough in it's first year but I can't help but wonder what it would have been like if they came out of the gate with 342hp V8 and 303hp V6. Still to this day, the GS 460 has the least powerful V8 in it's class and least impressive performance figures.
Dynamics - This is where I could go on for hours but I will keep this short and sweet. 1) AWFUL power steering that they never corrected. 2) The handling and demeanor of the car really never felt capable or sporty. 3) The ES 350 does 8/10ths of what the GS does at 3/4 of the price, for most consumers.
In summary...the 4GS needs to have some PASSION like the 2GS did. Passion in the design, passion in the engineering, and passion in the execution. By all measures I look at the current car as a space-filler. Lexus said, "Hey we need to redesign the GS because we need a midsize RWD sedan. Can you guys come up with something?" The result is plain to see, and completely lacks the zeal or (once again) passion that the car previously had.
Better interior color combinations, more wheel options, and a sport package are MUST-HAVE features this time around, IMO.
The 4GS needs to make an impression like the 2nd Gen did and be something car people want more then even a LS despite the price difference. I remember when the 2 GS came out it was a big deal and it was the Lexus to get and a clear step over the ES. Most people into cars wanted it more then even the bigger nicer LS and I am sure many buyers would have still chose the GS400 over the LS even if the prices were the same because the 2nd gen GS was such a intriguing package when it came out. The same can't be said for the current GS and it is doubtful even many enthusiasts would want or choose a 3rd Gen GS over the current LS if prices were the same. Many find the ES does most of what the GS does for much less and don't see the need to spend the extra to get the GS.
The 4 GS does not need some big 420+ hp v8 or be the quickest sedan in its class to make a good impression like the 2nd generation did to get people interested but they need to get the power numbers right, unlike what happened in the beginning with the 3 GS. Even if they did not have the 303 hp v6 ready they should at least have put the 280hp engine from the Avalon in the GS instead of the 245hp v6. The 245hp 3 liter should have went into the base IS from the start. Having the 430 debut with the same 300hp and not being really any quicker then the 2nd Gen 430 even with a 6 speed auto did not help things.
The 4 GS just needs to have unique good looking styling that draws people to it as soon as they see it and the interior needs to go back to a more solid and high quality feel. It needs to be a clear step above the IS and ES in every category and justify the price tag. It needs to be a drivers car people and enthusiasts will want, a clear step above the current GS, and not a car many buyers may just settle on because they can't afford a LS.
Last edited by UDel; 04-27-10 at 11:34 AM.
04-26-10, 11:42 AM
#455
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My former 98' GS400 to this day remains one of my favorite cars of MANY I've ever owned. At THAT time... it was clearly a force to be respected in it's class.
But sadly... not since then.
Every car editor, review, comparo, etc. ALWAYS has it dead last or second to. This ain't no accident people. Lexus made the car way TOO soft and has had PLENTY of time to at the least make a "Sport Pkg" to give a much needed shot of adrenalin.
Forget the GS-F for a moment (which also should be here already) and take a look at the super-soft steering, suv-like handling and lack-luster power.
And I'm not just talkin out my ***, I've driven the GS350, 430, and 460. Of them all the GS350 is the best-buy, but they all lack in real-world ooomph.
But sadly... not since then.
Every car editor, review, comparo, etc. ALWAYS has it dead last or second to. This ain't no accident people. Lexus made the car way TOO soft and has had PLENTY of time to at the least make a "Sport Pkg" to give a much needed shot of adrenalin.
Forget the GS-F for a moment (which also should be here already) and take a look at the super-soft steering, suv-like handling and lack-luster power.
And I'm not just talkin out my ***, I've driven the GS350, 430, and 460. Of them all the GS350 is the best-buy, but they all lack in real-world ooomph.
04-26-10, 11:47 AM
#456
About those F Sport accessories...
I think most dealers are hesitant to order anything other than black, silver, or white GS 350s with Nav and backup camera. The car sells in such low volume that they barely ever request a 460 or loaded 350, let alone an F-Sport equipped car. The GS line just hasn't been enough of a volume seller to inspire dealers take a chance on ordering anything other than what they KNOW they can sell.
Conversely, F Sport accessories for the IS have been a pretty decent stream of business according to my local dealers. F accessories sold through the parts department and F-Sport equipped cars have both been rather popular.
If the next GS is more successful, I think there will be more of a demand for F Sport parts like there has been with the IS.
I think most dealers are hesitant to order anything other than black, silver, or white GS 350s with Nav and backup camera. The car sells in such low volume that they barely ever request a 460 or loaded 350, let alone an F-Sport equipped car. The GS line just hasn't been enough of a volume seller to inspire dealers take a chance on ordering anything other than what they KNOW they can sell.
Conversely, F Sport accessories for the IS have been a pretty decent stream of business according to my local dealers. F accessories sold through the parts department and F-Sport equipped cars have both been rather popular.
If the next GS is more successful, I think there will be more of a demand for F Sport parts like there has been with the IS.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 04-26-10 at 11:50 AM.
04-26-10, 11:53 AM
#457
My former 98' GS400 to this day remains one of my favorite cars of MANY I've ever owned. At THAT time... it was clearly a force to be respected in it's class.
But sadly... not since then.
Every car editor, review, comparo, etc. ALWAYS has it dead last or second to. This ain't no accident people. Lexus made the car way TOO soft and has had PLENTY of time to at the least make a "Sport Pkg" to give a much needed shot of adrenalin.
Forget the GS-F for a moment (which also should be here already) and take a look at the super-soft steering, suv-like handling and lack-luster power.
And I'm not just talkin out my ***, I've driven the GS350, 430, and 460. Of them all the GS350 is the best-buy, but they all lack in real-world ooomph.
But sadly... not since then.
Every car editor, review, comparo, etc. ALWAYS has it dead last or second to. This ain't no accident people. Lexus made the car way TOO soft and has had PLENTY of time to at the least make a "Sport Pkg" to give a much needed shot of adrenalin.
Forget the GS-F for a moment (which also should be here already) and take a look at the super-soft steering, suv-like handling and lack-luster power.
And I'm not just talkin out my ***, I've driven the GS350, 430, and 460. Of them all the GS350 is the best-buy, but they all lack in real-world ooomph.
04-26-10, 09:52 PM
#458
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Thread Starter
It seems like when people talk about 1989 and the LS 400, a similar reference applies to 1997 and the GS 400. However, I don't think either of those events can be replicated, even if Lexus does the same level effort. Rather, I'd prefer to see a solid debut that has more longevity, in the manner that the LS has sustained. The midsize GS market is potentially even bigger too.
As for the RWD torque vectoring system, I'm curious how this will be applied (just GS-F only? If that model is made?), how it will stack up vs. rival systems, and how the industry rivals and journalists will react.
As for the RWD torque vectoring system, I'm curious how this will be applied (just GS-F only? If that model is made?), how it will stack up vs. rival systems, and how the industry rivals and journalists will react.
04-26-10, 10:33 PM
#459
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It seems like when people talk about 1989 and the LS 400, a similar reference applies to 1997 and the GS 400. However, I don't think either of those events can be replicated, even if Lexus does the same level effort. Rather, I'd prefer to see a solid debut that has more longevity, in the manner that the LS has sustained. The midsize GS market is potentially even bigger too.
As for the RWD torque vectoring system, I'm curious how this will be applied (just GS-F only? If that model is made?), how it will stack up vs. rival systems, and how the industry rivals and journalists will react.
As for the RWD torque vectoring system, I'm curious how this will be applied (just GS-F only? If that model is made?), how it will stack up vs. rival systems, and how the industry rivals and journalists will react.
Bingo. I stated that before, this is not 1997/1998 and it won't happen again. Hell some people in here whining don't even like the IS-F so it really doesn't matter what Lexus does they are here to whine.
In 1998 the ONLY RELEVANT cars in class were the E class, 5 and GS. This is 2010 and the ENTIRE CLASS is solid
5
E
GS
M37 56
XF (S-type used to suck ***)
S80
And then u have tweeners and also rans that are solid
STS
RL
MKS
Taurus SHO
Genesis
CTS
(probably missing others)
Then we have a huge amount of higher performance sedans that we didn't have in 1998. The GS was the FASTEST AUTOMATIC SEDAN until the E55 and XJR came out.
We should know Lexus will never get that claim again
What is amazing to me is doing the same old gorilla "oh more HP, more HP" and the GS has the worlds first RWD hybrid with multiple worlds firsts and instead of saying "hey the competition doesn't have one/is now copying it" that FACT is omitted.
I am also quite tired of calling the 3GS a "failure" when it was the 3rd best selling in class until 2009.I mean damnit, the GS 350 gets best in class MPG and acceleration.
Look I completely agree the 3GS was not the grand slam the 2GS was and I do hope for the 4GS to have a GS-F but lets not act like the 3GS is some awful car. I mean jeez how many cars LOOK like the 3GS?
04-26-10, 10:54 PM
#460
It seems like when people talk about 1989 and the LS 400, a similar reference applies to 1997 and the GS 400. However, I don't think either of those events can be replicated, even if Lexus does the same level effort. Rather, I'd prefer to see a solid debut that has more longevity, in the manner that the LS has sustained. The midsize GS market is potentially even bigger too.
i do agree though, i am not expecting 1997 all over again with the gs400. what was great was great, but just like you, i expect lexus to come out with something solid and last for a while. but i think the 3gs simply has more shortcomings than what it introduced to the market. there are a lot of great pluses for the 3gs (including the 350 engine as mike mentioned, which i truly enjoy), but at the same time there are a lot of big minuses on the 3gs, items that are pretty significant in this segment (rear cabin space, trunk space, more sporty driving dynamics). that imho are the biggest problems with the 3gs
the most important of all -- quality. it's been something that lexus has always been proud of and often the first thing that stood out about lexus over bmw and mb and audi.
so overall, i don't expect 1997 again (i don't mind seeing it again, up to lexus to surprise me). but at the same time i expect them to come out with a 4gs that number wise gets very close to the competitions. but on top, get it right the first time, a solid car with high quality control, something that defines lexus
04-27-10, 05:58 AM
#462
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04-27-10, 09:04 AM
#463
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Yes it does, but I believe that the 528i model is going to be discontinued for the next generation.
@all
You guys are really *****ing on the GS
From personal experience, when I got mine there wasn't really much else out there. The 5 series was ugly and slow, the E class was way too expensive, and the M never appealed to me.
In my price range I was looking at the 528ix, and that felt very underpowered. The M35 at the time had 280hp I believe, and it felt much slower than the GS350. The M handled better no doubt, but it sucked more gas than the GS, and the styling was more staid at least in my opinion. I never tested the A6 so I can't comment on that.
The GS350 was great for me since I rarely carry people in the back seat, and I liked the acceleration of the car.
As far as all the styling comments none of the class looked all that great a few years ago. The first sexy head turner IMO was the XF. The 5 was ugly, the E looked classy but plain, the M was bland, and the A6 was nice but nothing special in my eyes. The GS has a nice sleek side profile, and I love the front end style especially on the 08-10 models.
@all
You guys are really *****ing on the GS
From personal experience, when I got mine there wasn't really much else out there. The 5 series was ugly and slow, the E class was way too expensive, and the M never appealed to me.
In my price range I was looking at the 528ix, and that felt very underpowered. The M35 at the time had 280hp I believe, and it felt much slower than the GS350. The M handled better no doubt, but it sucked more gas than the GS, and the styling was more staid at least in my opinion. I never tested the A6 so I can't comment on that.
The GS350 was great for me since I rarely carry people in the back seat, and I liked the acceleration of the car.
As far as all the styling comments none of the class looked all that great a few years ago. The first sexy head turner IMO was the XF. The 5 was ugly, the E looked classy but plain, the M was bland, and the A6 was nice but nothing special in my eyes. The GS has a nice sleek side profile, and I love the front end style especially on the 08-10 models.
04-27-10, 09:41 AM
#464
I agree with what you said about the E, M, and the 5.
Like sicklex mentioned, it's not 1997 anymore but if lexus is reading, we are hoping that the 4GS will make a splash like it did back then to ignite some passion into the GS again
04-27-10, 10:16 AM
#465
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Not to dampen anyones expectations, but I wouldn't be surprised if the GS350/GS460 are recycled for the next gen. By that I mean the next V6 GS may very well have the same 3.5L engine and the 4.6L V8 may remain but with a slight powerboost (up to 380hp like the LS). That's a worst case scenario, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Maybe Lexus does that so that the GS doesn't stop on the more profitable LS's toes? Anyway I hope that that's not the case. My hope is for a slightly more powerful and efficient V6 model (new Mark-X has 315hp), a new more efficient powerful hybrid model for a better price ($50K please?), and 5.0L V8 model with 400hp. The GS-F probably won't be out until 2012 so the "base" engines need to be powerful and sufficient to boost the GS's image and appeal.
Anyway other than power, dynamics and refinement need to be at the top of the list for improvements in the new model.