UDel

I would not consider the GS-f to be a failure at 450-500hp. That is still alot of hp and if the GS is a couple hundred pounds lighter then the M or AMG then it won't need as much hp to put out good numbers. The GS-f does not have to beat the M or AMG to be successful since Lexus is not known for performance sedans anyway and it is most likely not going to be anywhere near as expensive as the German competition. Since the 4th gen GS is most likely not going to have a normal v8 option it would be smart if they don't make it too expensive or hardcore for buyers who may want to spend extra for a v8 but don't want some hardcore performance monster costing over 90K dollars just to get a v8.

The IS-f is comparable to the M3 because it was not that hard to get it there as they already had a v8 making 380hp so enlarging it and tuning it for power in the 420hp M3 range to stick in a IS was not a huge step. The M5 and AMG models will have over 500hp and Lexus does not have a v8 coming close to 500hp. Plus the AMG and M are going to be FI to get that hp and performance which FI v8s is another thing Lexus does not have and would be very expensive to do. I highly doubt they are going to use the v10 from the LFA since that will be expensive and that v10 is more suited to a light weight sports car then a heavier sedan. The only other option is to use the turbo v8 Lotus is using in the Espirit which may be a possibility or either building a new v8 or tuning the hell out of a current one to over 500hp which is going to be extremely expensive for a car that frankly may not even sell well or garner much interest especially if it has a really high price tag.

Lexus does not have to copy BMW M5 with the next GS-f. Lexus did not copy any BMW with the LFA, they did that car their own way. Where the M and AMG will use brute force from a ttv8 in a bigger heavier more hardcore sedan with a very high price tag to achieve what they want I think Lexus can have something great going a different route with a lighter weight smaller size sports sedan with a NA v8 in the 450-500hp range that is much less expensive while still giving great performance. Even if it performs just as well or comes pretty close it is still going to be a major achievement and something great for Lexus fans like the IS-f is.

Despite the IS-f being able to perform or compare as well as the M3 and AMG C class it still loses and places last in most comparisons but that does not mean it is a failure or is not something special that Lexus offers for fans.

If Lexus can keep weight down to 3700-3800lbs I don't see how a performance tuned NA v8 in the 450hp-480 range can't do 0-60 in the low to mid 4 second range, perform very well, and challenge heavier M5s or AMGs with higher hp ttv8s. If the GS-f can be had around 70K-75K compared to the competition over 90K that is also going to be a big selling point especially in this economy.

TF109B

the IS-F doesn't 'lose' or come in last. People are just used to the BMW so they always place it first. But in reality the low torque number compared to the IS-F is a big issue. Yeah it's fun to row the gears, but Lexus is Lexus. Which means they go for the 'drive' as well as the sport in the F branded cars. You'll still be able to drive the highway and get 25mpg in the IS-F, not so with the M3. To keep with the IS-F the M3 is high revving, meaning it sips more fuel. And with the IS-F you'll still retain value even in the higher miles, you'll still have the comfort and the reliability with the Lexus. Things that brand is known for. You don't think of M3 when you say Lexus. You think of smooth ride, quiet interior, good reliability. BMW is M3. That's what they're known for, their 3 series. Yeah the M5 is good, the 7 is good, but their 3 series is where it's at. Lexus, where it's at is the whole lineup. Making F cars is a new thing in Lexus, but not a new thing altogether. People just forget Toyota has made the MR2 the Celica the Supra sporty Corollas. This is what the LFA is doing now. Letting people know Lexus means business in sport as well. GS-F will be fine. Just let em do what they want, it'll come out and be a blast in it's own right.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

huh? where did that come from? sales number? fact? articles? if that's the case then some can say lexus is about es and rx

of course lexus can do whatever they want. but without marketing consideration and the target audience taste / requirement / goal, creating a car that doesn't sell is hardly a success. lexus has a great example recently

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

1sicklex, udel: Knock off the personal comments immediately. If you can't do that, exit this thread and do not post in it further.

spwolf

batteries do not provide any difference in mpg... so, they will not provide better mpg.... well 40lbs will provide better mpg i guess, it is just not a lot of weight to make an difference.

encore888

GS 250 is a must for global markets, that's why they have launched RX 270 and ES 240, people are being taxed heavily for the bigger engines.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Have you driven one around the city to make that claim? If you're driving within the city limit or even cruising on the highway, the M3 will have plenty of power to get around. I would hardly consider 295ftlb (90% of it down low) a 'low' figure. It's just not as torquey as the ISF and it's definitely not an issue. The M3 is sporty, but it is civil enough that it'll behave like most other sport sedans when driven normally.

MR_F1

They already sell a GS300 in the global market.

More energy dense, longer EV range, I think that would improve the mpg rating.


You've just described the current IS-F almost

It HAS to better it's rivals, else it would be pointless to make the GS F really. Lexus invested in F series cars to keep it's customers who were leaving to buy AMG/M models. If the GS F can't compete, who would buy it just because it's a Lexus? No sense at all bringing a knife to a gun fight. A V8 GS should already be around if not surpass the 400hp mark, a GS F would need to up the ante.

Also, making it lightweight is all well and good, but please remember that it costs much less to add hp than to reduce weight. So you are going to have to end up paying as much as the competition either way.

The 2UR can easily make well over 500hp on a boost, and Lotus will be using such a motor to power their Elite and Esprit models. Why not just take advantage?

*Batman*

I test drove the Infiniti M56S again today and this time I did it more in view of making a purchase. My conclusion was that Infiniti have really shot themselves in the foot on several dimensions and that the 4GS should dominate them if Lexus is smart about specs and about option combinations:

1) Lack of an active suspension and power stabilizer package - this is a deal breaker in itself. Particularly since the M56S commits the crimes of having body roll and being hard on bumps. After driving the GS460 with the active suspension, there's no way I would go back. Plus the dynamic handling package in the 550i is just amazing - the dynamic range is really comfortable at the low end beating any GS model, and at the sport end it's better than AMG handling and close to M5.

2) The color and option combinations are really restrictive. e.g. you can't have the suede-like headliner in the deluxe touring package if you choose the sports package. This is just dumb, and there's no way I'm spending $70k and getting a cheap cloth headliner. The GS460 current one is much more premium.

3) No side and top view cameras. Its ridiculous that the EX35 has this and the M56 does not.

4) Small 8" display - BMW has 10.5" HD display and if we believe rumors the new Lexus GS will have a 12" HD display.

So Lexus should dominate the Infiniti if they play their cards right. The only real compelling competition is the BMW which is becoming ever more Lexus like with its comfort mode and its electric steering. I hope they come up with a real response to BMW and don't produce a very nice but flawed car like the Infiniti M.

Trexus

Has anyone checked the U.S. trademark website to see if Toyota trademarked GS 250, GS 300 or GS F?

TF109B

It's an issue concerning fuel economy. Lower revs save fuel compared to higher revs. Not saying that everyone drives their M3 like a race car, but there's plenty of people I've spoke to that get much better mileage with their IS-F than owners of M3's. That's not just a point of view, but it's also noted as fact by a lot of publications as well. You get that with Lexus. That's the point I was making. Lexus may make a high performance GS-F, but rest assured it'll get 25mpg highway, even if it's rated at less. That's a thing that Lexus does and will continue to do. Regardless if it's the LS GS IS SC, whatever model, fuel economy is usually at or near the top in the class.

Fizzboy7

That's a great question. Although the GS300 would already be trademarked, no?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

just curious, on a suv i can understand about side cameras, but do we need it for sedan?

and on a side note, i still remember when i first saw the new infiniti m37/56, i was pretty happy. but after looking more closely and the details and such, the car just doesn't do anything to me at all anymore

encore888

Just checked and no GS 250 trademarks publicly listed, but any filings are "published for opposition" months later.

TF109B

That reminds me of the story a couple months back where Toyota took out the 'Supra' trademark for up to 2012 or something. It was a story on Autoblog.