4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
12-09-09, 09:42 PM
#77
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But how many people buy the GS460. I never see them. And people but the 750, A8, LS460, etc. because no 6 cylinder options are available in the U.S. For all we know, a cylinder luxo sled might outsell the V8 given the chance. 6 cylinders have made the average V8 obselete. That being said, I would like to see the return of smaller displacement 8 cylinder engines. They do offer a quality that a 6 cylinder does not. Retain that with smaller more efficient 8's between 3 and 4 liters.
12-09-09, 10:03 PM
#79
Lexus Fanatic
V-8s are NOT going anywhere. Infiniti now has a 5.0 and 5.6 V-8. BMW has a tt V-8 among other V-8s. Benz has multiple V-8s. Audi has V-8s. Volvo has them, CAddy has them.
V-8s are not going anywhere, people still want them. No turbo or S/C V-6 can have the smoothness of a V-8.
The luxury market has been DEFINED by the V-8.
Not to mention once a carmaker balances offering V-8s with fuel efficient engines like I-4s...well the MPG average should be fine.
Not offering a V-8 is simply LAME. Period.
V-8s are not going anywhere, people still want them. No turbo or S/C V-6 can have the smoothness of a V-8.
The luxury market has been DEFINED by the V-8.
Not to mention once a carmaker balances offering V-8s with fuel efficient engines like I-4s...well the MPG average should be fine.
Not offering a V-8 is simply LAME. Period.
I don't know where you got that I said v8s are no longer going to be offered
I never said that anywhere.Who cares what Infiniti does, they are not the leader or trend setter in anything. Infiniti needs top hp engines in their vehicles to get any serious attention because their main selling point is having the highest hp in class, pretty much the same with Nissan. Mercedes and BMW are the biggest leaders by far in the executive class segment and Infiniti having a powerful v8 is of no real importance. People are not buying Volvo or Cadillac v8s so they are a mute point.
With upcoming strict CAFE regulations car makers just offering more fuel efficient 4 and 6 cylinders is not going to be enough to keep their current lineups largely the same. Just adding DI and a 7 or 8 speed auto is not going to get current v8 only cars to meet these strict regulations either. People can chant all they want nothing is going to change and v8s will still be AS POPULAR as they are today but that is simply not going to be the reality 10 years from now. Car companies are not going to spend billions of dollars on highly efficient 4 cylinders and 6 cylinders just so they can keep offering gas guzzling v8 options that sell in relatively small numbers when they can just replace many of those v8s with 6 cylinders in certain circumstances.
I never said v8s are going to disappear all together but with upcoming CAFE regulations, high gas prices, and record sales loses in the billions they are going to be much more expensive and more rare in the future and reserved mostly just for higher end cars. You are going to see 6 cylinders whether NA, FI, or hybrid replace segments where v8s were common and 6 cylinders offered in cars that normally only offered v8s, v10s, v12s like LS, S classes, and 7 series in the future. You are going to see v8s replace v10s and v12s as well as 4 cylinders replace 6 cylinders as base models.
It is already happening. A more efficient 4 cylinder turbo has replaced the v6 in the A4, a supercharged v6 has replaced the v8 in the S4 and upcoming S5. A turbo six or possible turbo v6 is supposed to replace the v8 in the new M3, a turbo v8 will replace the v10 in the next M5 and M6. BMW used to criticize turbos but now utilize them because of the need for improved fuel economy while still giving good power. The next AMG in the C class is rumored to go to a FI 6 cylinder instead of a v8. The Ferrari Enzo replacement is going to be a 8 cylinder instead of a 12 and even Ferrari is talking about utilizing hybrids. I was just reading that the 528i and 535i are going to be replaced by turbo 4 cylinders in the future. The next gen Corvette is even rumored to be offered with a 6 cylinder. If those Motor Trend predictions are true the GS460 is going to be replaced by a 6 cylinder and the v8 reserved for an expensive performance model. Nobody thought 5 years ago Lexus would offer a fwd 4 cylinder hybrid or a upcoming fuel efficient hatch back but things have changed.
There are even strong rumors 6 cylinders of some sort will be offered in the next generation S class, 6 series, SL, LS, etc in new or more markets including America. v8s will still be offered but they will eventually move up much higher in price and prestige, v10s and v12s could disappear or most likely only be reserved for very expensive exclusive bespoke models, it is just not going to be the same as today.
Six cylinders have come a long way from 5-10 years ago. With 300hp being the norm for many v6 in entry level lux cars they now provide the power and acceleration of most v8s from 5-10 years ago, in some cases they are as quick or quicker then their v8 counterparts. V6s are no longer sluggish and underpowered in even larger heavier cars and are now suitable as an option or base model in larger cars like a 6 series, SL, 7 series, LS, etc especially when they are paired with turbos, superchargers, or hybrids to increase fuel economy.
For better or worse most cars no matter what segments they are in are going to be getting smaller, lighter, and much more fuel efficient with smaller FI/hybrid engines in the next couple of years.
If that Motor Trend information is correct Lexus is just reacting to upcoming CAFE regulations and the current climate with the new GS and is downsizing engines, adding a fuel efficient hybrid, and reserving the v8 only for a expensive high performance version to increase fuel economy along the product line which is going to be required by everyone. The information may be wrong but it is not surprising if it is true. I think it is a very smart move and have no problem with it aside from thinking the 2.5 may be a little small and underpowered for its size and class.
12-09-09, 10:08 PM
#80
Lexus Fanatic
But how many people buy the GS460. I never see them. And people but the 750, A8, LS460, etc. because no 6 cylinder options are available in the U.S. For all we know, a cylinder luxo sled might outsell the V8 given the chance. 6 cylinders have made the average V8 obselete. That being said, I would like to see the return of smaller displacement 8 cylinder engines. They do offer a quality that a 6 cylinder does not. Retain that with smaller more efficient 8's between 3 and 4 liters.
Good point. A modern 300+hp 6 cylinder option would now be perfectly suitable in cars 7 series, LS, A8, 6 series, SL, etc in America and I am sure they would be extremely popular and even increase sales. They will not decrease the image of the brand especially with looming CAFE regs and high gas prices. 6 cylinders in larger sedans/coupes don't hurt the image of BMW, Audi's, and Mercs in Europe and other markets who are even more brand/image conscious in many ways then Americans.
12-10-09, 06:04 AM
#83
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Good point. A modern 300+hp 6 cylinder option would now be perfectly suitable in cars 7 series, LS, A8, 6 series, SL, etc in America and I am sure they would be extremely popular and even increase sales. They will not decrease the image of the brand especially with looming CAFE regs and high gas prices. 6 cylinders in larger sedans/coupes don't hurt the image of BMW, Audi's, and Mercs in Europe and other markets who are even more brand/image conscious in many ways then Americans.
These sedans have also become quite expensive. Perhaps a 6 cylinder unit would reduce that. It did for the S400 hybrid.
12-10-09, 08:19 AM
#84
And these companies have 6 cylinder options that maintain the prestige of the brand that they represent. I personally think that the Audi 3.0L TSFI is pretty damn cool. We have seen it on this site before where people have said that they or someone that they know want a 7 series, for example, but don't want 400 HP or 450 ft lbs of torque. ...come to think of it, I don't know if I would trust myself with that kind of power in a vehicle so large.
These sedans have also become quite expensive. Perhaps a 6 cylinder unit would reduce that. It did for the S400 hybrid.
These sedans have also become quite expensive. Perhaps a 6 cylinder unit would reduce that. It did for the S400 hybrid.
Is my 350 slow when one person is aboard? Heck no, goes like stink!
As I said before, except CO2 taxing/incentives accross the world. Next year Slovenia is going to have up to 28% larger taxes for cars that pollute more than 250g CO2/100km...
Let me explain that better - 750i produces 266g despite all the latest tricks to lower the official numbers.
Everything over 150g/100km will be taxed more heavily than before. Everything over 200g /100km will be probably not be bought anymore.
12-10-09, 09:24 AM
#87
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I'm surprised how many of you guys are taking this report seriously.
If less than 1% of this turns out to be true, I would think that this product plan is the one for overseas markets. In markets like China where heavy taxes are placed on cars with more than 3.0L I can see a GS250 and GS300h, but in the US? No. Lexus will probably stick with what works. The GS sold very well at launch and has only recently declined, so why change from that formula? Also ALL of the German midsizers have the V6 + V8 + "performance model" formula and it works VERY well for them. In the US and Europe I expect Lexus to improve and perfect the current formula with an entry level 300+ hp V6, an uplevel V8, a more expensive performance hybrid, and a range topping F model. That's what works and that's what Lexus needs. For China the plan outlined by MT is probably the most like with a GS250, GS300h, and GS350.
Also CAFE numbers don't really matter because Lexus's numbers are counted WITH Toyota's. So all Toyota has to do is sell more Priuses. Lexus can do whatever it wants. CAFE numbers are counted by SALES and none of these performance models are going to sell in large volume (Lexus will probably even limit the number manufactured too). So if Lexus sells 2000 "F" models per year (IS-F, GS-F, LS-F, SC-F etc), and Toyota sells 200,000 Prius's a year the Prius would MORE than counterbalance the performance F model's low fuel economy. That's probably why Toyota is going to expand the Prius brand and introduce plugin variants that get 300mpg (which would influence the CAFE number more than a 15mpg LS-F).
Last edited by (Cj); 12-10-09 at 09:33 AM.
12-10-09, 09:36 AM
#88
Also CAFE numbers don't really matter because Lexus's numbers are counted WITH Toyota's. So all Toyota has to do is sell more Priuses. Lexus can do whatever it wants. CAFE numbers are counted by SALES and none of these performance models are going to sell in large volume (Lexus will probably even limit the number manufactured too). So if Lexus sells 2000 "F" models per year (IS-F, GS-F, LS-F, SC-F etc), and Toyota sells 200,000 Prius's a year the Prius would MORE than counterbalance the performance F model's low fuel economy. That's probably why Toyota is going to expand the Prius brand and introduce plugin variants that get 300mpg (which would influence the CAFE number more than a 15mpg LS-F).
That's why the new CAFE standard is more trouble to luxury brands that are not part of a large/mainstream automaker like BMW and MB. For Lexus and Audi, this problem will be taken care of by the millions of hybrids and diesels sold by Toyota and VW.
Still think Lexus being associated to Toyota is a bad idea now?
12-10-09, 03:23 PM
#90
+1
I'm surprised how many of you guys are taking this report seriously.
If less than 1% of this turns out to be true, I would think that this product plan is the one for overseas markets. In markets like China where heavy taxes are placed on cars with more than 3.0L I can see a GS250 and GS300h, but in the US? No. Lexus will probably stick with what works. The GS sold very well at launch and has only recently declined, so why change from that formula? Also ALL of the German midsizers have the V6 + V8 + "performance model" formula and it works VERY well for them. In the US and Europe I expect Lexus to improve and perfect the current formula with an entry level 300+ hp V6, an uplevel V8, a more expensive performance hybrid, and a range topping F model. That's what works and that's what Lexus needs. For China the plan outlined by MT is probably the most like with a GS250, GS300h, and GS350.
Also CAFE numbers don't really matter because Lexus's numbers are counted WITH Toyota's. So all Toyota has to do is sell more Priuses. Lexus can do whatever it wants. CAFE numbers are counted by SALES and none of these performance models are going to sell in large volume (Lexus will probably even limit the number manufactured too). So if Lexus sells 2000 "F" models per year (IS-F, GS-F, LS-F, SC-F etc), and Toyota sells 200,000 Prius's a year the Prius would MORE than counterbalance the performance F model's low fuel economy. That's probably why Toyota is going to expand the Prius brand and introduce plugin variants that get 300mpg (which would influence the CAFE number more than a 15mpg LS-F).
I'm surprised how many of you guys are taking this report seriously.
If less than 1% of this turns out to be true, I would think that this product plan is the one for overseas markets. In markets like China where heavy taxes are placed on cars with more than 3.0L I can see a GS250 and GS300h, but in the US? No. Lexus will probably stick with what works. The GS sold very well at launch and has only recently declined, so why change from that formula? Also ALL of the German midsizers have the V6 + V8 + "performance model" formula and it works VERY well for them. In the US and Europe I expect Lexus to improve and perfect the current formula with an entry level 300+ hp V6, an uplevel V8, a more expensive performance hybrid, and a range topping F model. That's what works and that's what Lexus needs. For China the plan outlined by MT is probably the most like with a GS250, GS300h, and GS350.
Also CAFE numbers don't really matter because Lexus's numbers are counted WITH Toyota's. So all Toyota has to do is sell more Priuses. Lexus can do whatever it wants. CAFE numbers are counted by SALES and none of these performance models are going to sell in large volume (Lexus will probably even limit the number manufactured too). So if Lexus sells 2000 "F" models per year (IS-F, GS-F, LS-F, SC-F etc), and Toyota sells 200,000 Prius's a year the Prius would MORE than counterbalance the performance F model's low fuel economy. That's probably why Toyota is going to expand the Prius brand and introduce plugin variants that get 300mpg (which would influence the CAFE number more than a 15mpg LS-F).
I am sure Lexus will offer V8's in next GS, i am also sure that almost nobody will buy them, it is just where the market is moving.
They better improve packaging and weight of GS450h.