This entire post is completely wrong.

The LF A doesn't have any place in this conversation. But since you brought it up, the LF A may be faster on a track compared to some more powerful cars, but it also gets beat in a straight line by many others. Not important or relevant to this discussion.

I don't know how you think the E63 is better than the CTS V. The V is arguably the best performance "bang for the buck" available on the market today. The V is half a second faster in a straight line 0-60...an eternity...and owns the E on the track as well. I prefer the interior and exterior looks of the E granted, but would expect so an additional $50K.

Nobody buying one of these cars gives a rat's azz about what any commercials say. Enthusiasts buy these cars, not the general public, and typically go into these purchases with all the information beforehand. Like Henry said, hp and performance absolutely does matter in this segment.

You're point about the S63/S65 is also irrelevant. The hp comparison really only matters within a segment. I find it interesting that you think that performance cars are sold on "feel". The Porsche sales guy absolutely was happy to volunteer that while the Pana Turbo had slightly less hp than the S63 it owned the Benz in every single performance category. It's hp deficiency is made up for with being significantly lighter (ie. 700 lbs). There is no chance the GS F will be 700 lb lighter than an E63 or M5.

The MB sales guys also are fully aware the C63 has more hp than their competitors. It's one of the first things out of their mouths in fact and it's brute force is one of it's main selling points.

All of the other factors you mentioned, are only important if the performance is relatively close to it's direct competitors. You very clearly have never purchased or shopped for cars in these segments. You may call it stupid, but you are completely naive to think that the GS F will not struggle badly to sell if it is sub 500 hp.

 

I'm personally siding with those who believe that a GS F should have at least 500 horsepower and nothing less..........if it wants to compete in the performance realm against its competitors or if it wants to be taken seriously by enthusiasts (who form the main target market of these performance vehicles)

As stated by other forumers in previous posts, in the minds of enthusiasts, numbers mean everything to them.

 

Yup, a GS-F will have to be at least 500+ hp minimum AND very close in all performance criteria to the E amg and M5, otherwise, I would prefer Lexus not to have a GS-F at all, or they would just be embarrassing themselves with a half *** effort ...

 

How is my post wrong? My post was intended for people who think HP numbers are the thing that makes cars sell. That's wrong. Not my statement. And dynamics are what makes a car fast, not just big HP. 550HP with no dynamics is just a drag car. No one buys sedans to go drag racing. Why do you think the CTS-V went to the Nurburgring to do it's testing? The Lexus mules are over there in Germany too. Before you get off saying my post is wrong you should do some research. How many cars with over 500HP are sold in this segment compared to their other variations? You think the GS-F will be a hard pressed sell as a brand new car? How are any of you going to know what it will sell? You don't. All we have is guesses and speculation. They're not going to look to the GS-F to be their sales leader, which is what I'm saying. If you think that it needs 550hp to compete, than you're wrong. Which is what I'm saying, again. 500HP or close to it will be fine if the weight is kept to around 3700-3900lbs. and the dynamics of the vehicle are what the LFA is about, and no one knows how good the straight line acceleration of the LFA is yet, it's not even in production yet. It's not hard to see that Lexus learned a lot from the LFA and the IS-F, they'll incorporate that into the new GS. If you follow Lexus at all, or Toyota, you'll know this. So yes, the LFA has a place in this conversation, it is a Lexus after all.

 

^ While I get the gist of what you are saying, the car needs to have a competitive HP number and that is all there is to it - period. 450 or 500hp is not competitive in an age when BMW and Mercedes are making 550-560HP engines.

The slammer will be weight. The 5 Series is a fat pig and I can only assume that the M5 will weigh even more than the standard car. The E63 weighs 4160lbs which is hardly light either. There is a huge opportunity here for Lexus to come in with a lighter car that requires less power to lay down impressive performance specs. Am I talking 450-500hp? No, I'm talking more like at least 530, more like 540 or 550. Lexus needs to find a way to stuff at least that much power into the GSF simply because that's the yardstick that has already been thrown. As the new entrant, they do have something to prove and they need to take the competition on head-to-head and show that they can build engines that are just as brawny and powerful. Remember, the car and overall package is (IMO) most important but this is also an arms race in terms of engine output/superiority as well.

As I said above, weight will be the ace up Lexus' sleeve. If they can make this car weigh even 3900lbs (I would like to see it more like 3800 or less) then it will have a significant advantage over the other two in both speed and handling dynamics.

 

The E63AMG doesn't make anywhere near 550HP. Only the CTS-V is in that league. The E63AMG makes about 518HP. Road and Track says 518hp and 0-60 in 4.1 seconds. Curb weight of 4285lbs. Motortrend says 518hp also and 0-60 in 4.1 seconds weight at 4282lbs. they also say this

In the end both cars accelerated the same, the E63 was a bit faster around the track, and the way it felt was more precise than the CTS-V, giving it the edge in their comparison. So when you consider that both these cars weigh close to 4300lbs. you get the feeling that Lexus could potentially take the cake with 500hp and a car under 4000lbs. as long as the handling characteristics are in check and it gives them confidence. Not everything is down to power.

 

^I think Mercedes' newest/upcoming AMG engine is 562HP but I need to double check

EDIT: Article here: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11003012...ngine-revealed

 

But you see what I'm getting at, HP is not all the car needs to brag about. With 518hp in the current E63, it still keeps pace with the 550hp CTS-V. Imagine 500hp but with 200lbs. off in terms of weight! The GS is among the lightest in it's class now, so with Lexus trying to keep the dimensions the same, I doubt it'll get any heavier, probably the opposite. So technically 3900 or maybe even 3800lbs. isn't out of the question. We'll just have to see what the engine will be and what it'll produce.

 

if that's really the case (that hp doesn't matter in this segment), then why is mb upping the power with the new tt v8?

again, no one is denying the performance aspect of certain hp numbers on a light platform. it will go well. that's why a lot of people think the miata (not so much hp but so light) is such a great car to drive.

but at the same time, reading all your posts especially those in lfa thread, it's pretty clear to me that you just don't know how marketing works at all. sometimes it's not just about how you make it, it's also about how you market it. no doubt lexus can make a lighter gs with less than 500hp and probably pull good numbers, but from marketing point of view, looking at the audience, those who actually hold the real cash that can afford the car (not you or me), marketing team will need to find out what sells a car in that segment.

and unfortunately, hp is the answer, well, at least big part of the answer. again i am not saying if that's right or wrong, that's completely out of the scope of this discussion.

bringing in lfa into this discussion is pretty silly. first, if at all, that car is still trying to prove itself in the performance world. second, the car is in such a different market as the gs/5/e, the audience is totally different so no comparison can be made at all. third, i think i do not have to bring it up on how well the lfa is selling here in the US again, you trying to use that to justify potential sales of the gsf here in the US?

and s63/65 is also in another segment. again, why do you like to bring cars from other segments to compare? if you fail to realize each segments work differently, then you are failing miserably. but to answer your question, there aren't really any other cars to compete with s63/65 in some sense, why would mb bother?

and if you really want to talk about c63? i will just leave you with this one very link, which totally destroys your statement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krHUE...ext=1&index=30

the discussions on hp war have been well documented everywhere, not just on CL. it's very clear (well at least to me) how that goes and how companies focus so much on that. it might not be the right way to approach performance, but that's how a lot of people, mind you, real perspective buyers, compare between them. it's not the only thing that make people buy cars, but pretty clear it's one important part that people look at

i was a buyer in the isf segment and now own m3. hp wasn't top priority for me otherwise i would have gotten c63. however, it's not at the bottom either. if the isf say only weigh 3500lb and got about 350hp (similar to numbers from e46 m3), would i consider the car? more than very likely, no

i am no perspective buyers on m5 yet, but i am hoping so in the next few years. similar reasoning would i consider gsf with less than 500hp? again, not likely. i might be only one data point, but that gives you an idea what perspective buyers think

e60 m5 500hp. previously e55 478hp, e63 upped to 518. f10 m5 up to 550+hp, e63 up to 550+hp as well. e92 m3 400+hp, isf made it to have a tad more hp than m3 (before c63 release). all these are facts. manufacturers probably know something better

and last of all, i just want to say again, i am not doubting your logic, weigh is important and it can go a long way. but market is another, and fantasy sometimes just doesn't work

 

lol you better hide

 

I think 540hp will do the trick, as I doubt they will make any car for now that has more power than the LFA. That being said, the tool to get that done is right here, under the bonnet of this car.

 

I hope Lexus can develop a supercharger for the 2UR on their own though. Those Toyota/Lexus haters have enough ammunition already claiming Toyota has no performance tuning technologies themselves and has to always rely on Yamaha for engine tuning (even though Yamaha and Toyota mutually own each other). If Lexus has to turn to Lotus for their F engine then the bashing will never end. The in-house TRD division does a good job coming up with superchargers for Toyota engines already. No need to get Lotus involved IMO.

 

Ok, thats even better, thanks for the info.

 

Some of the hate is pretty silly. First of all, Yamaha can be basically considered part of the Toyota family.

Secondly, Toyota easily does have the knowledge and expertise to make superchargers. They do so with TOM'S superchargers in Japan. Tom's is a Toyota tuning arm. For the most part, Toyota simply chooses not to make a huge amount of performance tuning products, but that might change in the future.

Most Toyota engines have big performance potential; the main thing that limits tuning is Toyota's closed ECU.

 

Dealers have seen the new pics. I was told the car is much more sporty and aggressive looking. I was also told that the car is still about a year out, and one version would have about 370 hp (I am really not too confident about my source's knowledge on the horsepower).