Technically speaking Yamaha can only be considered part of the Toyota family after year 2000 when the two bought shares from each other. Anything performance-oriented from Toyota before 2000, starting from the 2000GT, was partly tuned by Yamaha as an independent company. The defense for Toyota is hence pretty weak unfortunately.

But of course we all know that Yamaha and Toyota are like a family long before year 2000, just not formally until 2000.

 

if it's in the $100k range, NO ONE will buy it over the E63/M5, unless if it's a mini-LFA or just totally blows everything out of the water

 

performance aspect i don't see it blowing the e63 and m5 out of the water.

price wise? i think loaded at 85k is what they should shoot for. anything more, euros start to taste better

 

Yes officially they've only been part of the Toyota family since 2000.

In reality, Toyota and Yamaha have had VERY close ties since the 1960s. So symbolically, Yamaha has been a part of Toyota for decades.

 

Frankly, who cares? We know better, and even if it were true, why fault Toyota on making better uses of it's resources than anyone else?

 

I agree but somehow I doubt Lexus will allow GS-F 500+ horsepower and make it come close to LFA output. Weight saving would be their best bet.

 

to be honest, i think the whole idea that other cars in lexus lineup can't have higher output than the lfa doesn't make sense. what is that based on? and why? i can see isf having less power than gsf, and gsf less than lsf (hypothetically). but the lfa is a halo car in the super car / exotic area, it shouldn't be considered the same in the "linear" measure.

let's look at other manufacturers

porsche (weaker case as years don't fully overlap but you see the idea)
- porsche gt, 605hp/435tq (yes, it was only 05-06)
- gt2 rs, 620hp/516tq
- gt3 rs, 450hp/317hp
- turbo, 500hp/480tq

question: does that mean the gt3 doesn't make sense coz' a normal turbo has more hp? if i want performance, gt3 rs for me please

mercedes (a lot more comparison)
- sl65/s65, 604hp/738tq
- sls, 563hp/479tq
- slr, 617hp/580tq

question: 65 series pretty much is "insane" in terms of hp and tq, but the slr and sls both exist and they are doing their jobs in the market just fine (subjective preference aside)

audi (moving trend, global market)
- s6, 435hp/398tq
- rs4, 420hp/317tq (hope my number is right)
- rs6, 579hp/479tq (not available in the US)
- r8 4.2, 420hp/317tq
- r8 5.2, 525hp/391tq

question: again, anything wrong with audi? i don't see it. sales of r8 (both 4.2 and 5.2) have been reasonable, getting great exposure in exotic world. 4.2 is actually sharing same engine as rs4. rs6 numbers way more than r8 5.2.

so i don't see the problem with gsf having more hp than the lfa. why lfa has to be the limit? it's a very special different car. it's super sport, weight, construction, etc... in mind, it doesn't "need" 600 or 700 hp, it needs what it can take. isf, gsf, lsf, they are heavy sedan, big, long, everything is different. hp might be, and likely, needed.

so say the lfa having the current v10, and gsf having some sort of power plant pushing 550 to 560hp, but with more low end tq (like the isf), i see absolutely nothing wrong

 

I'm not sure 85k is doable. That's more than the E60 M5. Plus I think that the real competition for GSF is the BMW 550i which tops out at 75k.

I would rather buy a 495hp Dinan BMW 550i fully loaded for 78k than a GSF for 85k. And I'm pretty sure I'm target demographic for GSF.

 

Interesting. 370 HP might be the hybrid, or it might be the V8, although that would be weak for the V8 in terms of competition.

No way the GSF will be priced that high. I think base price will start around 75-80K. E63 starts at around 87K for comparison.


I wonder what is your opinion on the E63 base MSRP? You're also assuming what the GSF may or may have, or how it may perform.

ISF base MSRP is higher than M3 base MSRP and it is about the same as C63 MSRP. Yet, the ISF still sells well for the segment. Of course, ISF comes more loaded than a base M3 or base C63.

I don't see how it would be a big deal for GSF loaded to be at 85K, especially if it handles really good and gets a strong V10 engine.

It all depends on the specs, capability and features that the GSF is going to have.

 

Nice point Henry.

We all have to remember too this is still Lexus in the early stages with this "F" brand and no other Japanese brands have it. So its completely new to Japan.

It took AMG/M/RS YEARS and YEARS to get where they are so lets not get hopes high on first efforts here.

Again Lexus is on its own here. Whereas the Germans duke it out constantly with BMW's "M", Audi's "RS" and Benz's AMG, Lexus has their two "F" cars and no Japanese competition to help push them. We know competition is good.

Sorry I don't expect any M5/E63 etc killer. If the GS F has 450-500hp and handles great with features/room I'm all for it.

Remember most of these cars are for SHOW anyway, not go and they give owners higher performance on the road, which is a great thing.

 

I don't even know what the E63 base msrp is. I don't like Mercedes Benz based on historical experience. I only am interested in BMW and Lexus.

While I don't know what the GSF is like, I automatically asssume it will be inferior to the M5. While you could make a fuss about pre-conceptions, my sense is that most people will view it that way and so they will have to compete on value initially at least. Yes 85k is less than an f10 M5. But when the 550xi does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and has an option of 100hp extra for an extra $3000 dinan package, the GSF will need to have a quarter mile time faster than the E60 M5 and a 0-60 close to 4. I have a feeling that is unlikely.

Maybe I will be proven wrong.

 

Another car not mentioned but should be is the Jaguar XF-R which some mags now believe is best in class and its cheaper than the competition. 500+hp S/C V-8. Looks like a tougher GS

With the yen where it is Lexus can't price it too low unless they intend to penetrate the market. Considering the 08-11 IS F price, doubt that happens.

 

I agree with rominl.

The existence of the LFA by no means places some sort of hard limit on potential peak HP numbers for "regular" F-line Lexus vehicles like the GS-F.

 

actually, in terms of the f line, i have to give a lot of credit to lexus already. looking at how close their isf is against the m3, rs4, and c63, i personally really don't see lexus in the clear trailing. i often see it as personal preference on which to own.

and with the lfa, lexus further proves what they are capable of, if they want to.

so with the gsf (i guess we are somewhat taking it for granted now huh?), i actually don't think it's a problem for lexus to create one that's competitive to the germans. but the question is more about if they want to do that (for various of reasons). for one, if they do it, they have to do a lot of marketing, but more for the image than profit.

i still don't think it makes sense for them to make a car that's 450hp-500hp and call it gsf. they effectively kill the f brand for the gs right from the start.

 

well first of all, no one knows what f10 m5 is going to be like, so any performance on that thing is just speculations.

second, batman, i don't know where you get your numbers, but in no way you can get a relatively loaded e60 m5 new for 85k. e60 m5 relatively loaded are all 96k or above (top around 100k). same thing with the e63. they are both 100k cars. i know very well coz' i have looked at them.

if you look at isf, its performance is above 335 (over all) and it's clearly head to head with m3. base msrp is completely pointless coz' bmw base means you get the car with engine and that's about it. but if we talk about relatively loaded, isf is around 60k msrp, and e90 m3 is around 67-70k. say that's about 10k difference.

with that ratio, assuming f10 m5 is going to be 100k relatively loaded, then 85k for gsf would be bargain

of course, that's under assumption that gsf is something lexus put up to go against m5. if lexus does a gsf and it only goes against f10 550i? then it's automatic fail in my eyes already, we can throw all performance and price factors out of the window

also, on a side note, f10 m5 is not going to be anything crazy faster than f10 550i. you have to understand m cars are not about straight line, it's about balance and track performance. the 3 series is a great example. 335 is very fast, pretty much as fast as m3. but m3 will eat 335 alive on the track. same with the 550, it's FI engines make it very fast on the straight, but on the track i am sure the m5 will pull. and historically, from e39 m5 to e60 m5, 0-60 didn't really change. that's another indication