4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
10-12-10, 12:11 AM
#931
Lexus Champion
You know I think it's funny that a mod can say I don't know anything about marketing. When did I say I was a marketing genius? What advertising does is not my profession. I never claimed it was. What's also funny is that I've been saying that HP is not everything. I never said it wasn't important. So taking things out of context in my posts is what seems to be happening. I'm not trying to argue with any of you here. But I have been around for a while now in many states and many areas and i see what sells and what doesn't sell. i see what works to sell and what doesn't. marketing isn't something special you need to go to school to see. You think you'd come to a forum and share your views and have an opinion welcomed, but instead you get laughed at or looked at like you 'don't know anything' about whatever because of some posts. That's just wrong. Marketing has nothing to do with the comments I'm making. I'm stating giving a car like the GS-F 550HP is not necessary to compete. Of course they're going to have to have at least 500HP to keep up, unless the car weighs 3400lbs. which it probably won't. But what I'm saying is that according to many, who are enthusiasts, HP is good, but driving dynamics is better. Case in point is the M3 vs. the C63. I'm not going to keep posting the same thing over and over again. I'm just trying to make a point that in the eyes of many, how a car 'feels' is more important than how fast it can hit 100 or 150mph. What is the difference between Lexus and Mercedes? When has Lexus made a commercial saying- "we gave it 500hp"? That's not Lexus. That's mercedes. So no, my logic isn't flawed. That commercial isn't Lexus. And to be honest, the C63 isn't any better than the IS-F. And like I said before, look at the M3. Who wins the comparison tests? Who's recognized as the perfect driving sedan? Not the 450hp C63. Image is one thing, but Lexus is not the super amounts of HP image, it never has been and I doubt it'll start. The IS-F commercial goes a long way to show what Lexus is about. But yet it's still Lexus. The GS-F will be the same way.
Last edited by TF109B; 10-12-10 at 12:20 AM.
10-12-10, 12:18 AM
#932
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I don't even know what the E63 base msrp is. I don't like Mercedes Benz based on historical experience. I only am interested in BMW and Lexus.
While I don't know what the GSF is like, I automatically asssume it will be inferior to the M5. While you could make a fuss about pre-conceptions, my sense is that most people will view it that way and so they will have to compete on value initially at least. Yes 85k is less than an f10 M5. But when the 550xi does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and has an option of 100hp extra for an extra $3000 dinan package, the GSF will need to have a quarter mile time faster than the E60 M5 and a 0-60 close to 4. I have a feeling that is unlikely.
Maybe I will be proven wrong.
While I don't know what the GSF is like, I automatically asssume it will be inferior to the M5. While you could make a fuss about pre-conceptions, my sense is that most people will view it that way and so they will have to compete on value initially at least. Yes 85k is less than an f10 M5. But when the 550xi does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and has an option of 100hp extra for an extra $3000 dinan package, the GSF will need to have a quarter mile time faster than the E60 M5 and a 0-60 close to 4. I have a feeling that is unlikely.
Maybe I will be proven wrong.
I see your point, but I'm confident the GSF will be faster than the E60 M5. It should be a close match for the F10 M5 IMO.
The GSF should have a lot of knowledge and experience gained from the LFA applied to it, so I have high expectations for it.
10-12-10, 08:54 AM
#933
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Another car not mentioned but should be is the Jaguar XF-R which some mags now believe is best in class and its cheaper than the competition. 500+hp S/C V-8. Looks like a tougher GS 
With the yen where it is Lexus can't price it too low unless they intend to penetrate the market. Considering the 08-11 IS F price, doubt that happens.
With the yen where it is Lexus can't price it too low unless they intend to penetrate the market. Considering the 08-11 IS F price, doubt that happens.
1SICKLEX, when you said earlier that the interior of the new GS will blow us away, what exactly did you mean by that? Lexus interiors have always looked nice and been of generally pretty good quality, so are you talking about the design or electronics functionality etc...? I know there are rumours about a 12" panel in the cockpit. That would be cool, but if it's going to take up that much space I hope it's a touchscreen!
10-12-10, 09:04 AM
#934
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Posts: n/a
actually, in terms of the f line, i have to give a lot of credit to lexus already. looking at how close their isf is against the m3, rs4, and c63, i personally really don't see lexus in the clear trailing. i often see it as personal preference on which to own.
and with the lfa, lexus further proves what they are capable of, if they want to.
so with the gsf (i guess we are somewhat taking it for granted now huh?), i actually don't think it's a problem for lexus to create one that's competitive to the germans. but the question is more about if they want to do that (for various of reasons). for one, if they do it, they have to do a lot of marketing, but more for the image than profit.
i still don't think it makes sense for them to make a car that's 450hp-500hp and call it gsf. they effectively kill the f brand for the gs right from the start.
and with the lfa, lexus further proves what they are capable of, if they want to.
so with the gsf (i guess we are somewhat taking it for granted now huh?), i actually don't think it's a problem for lexus to create one that's competitive to the germans. but the question is more about if they want to do that (for various of reasons). for one, if they do it, they have to do a lot of marketing, but more for the image than profit.
i still don't think it makes sense for them to make a car that's 450hp-500hp and call it gsf. they effectively kill the f brand for the gs right from the start.
You know I think it's funny that a mod can say I don't know anything about marketing. When did I say I was a marketing genius? What advertising does is not my profession. I never claimed it was. What's also funny is that I've been saying that HP is not everything. I never said it wasn't important. So taking things out of context in my posts is what seems to be happening. I'm not trying to argue with any of you here. But I have been around for a while now in many states and many areas and i see what sells and what doesn't sell. i see what works to sell and what doesn't. marketing isn't something special you need to go to school to see. You think you'd come to a forum and share your views and have an opinion welcomed, but instead you get laughed at or looked at like you 'don't know anything' about whatever because of some posts. That's just wrong. Marketing has nothing to do with the comments I'm making. I'm stating giving a car like the GS-F 550HP is not necessary to compete. Of course they're going to have to have at least 500HP to keep up, unless the car weighs 3400lbs. which it probably won't. But what I'm saying is that according to many, who are enthusiasts, HP is good, but driving dynamics is better. Case in point is the M3 vs. the C63. I'm not going to keep posting the same thing over and over again. I'm just trying to make a point that in the eyes of many, how a car 'feels' is more important than how fast it can hit 100 or 150mph. What is the difference between Lexus and Mercedes? When has Lexus made a commercial saying- "we gave it 500hp"? That's not Lexus. That's mercedes. So no, my logic isn't flawed. That commercial isn't Lexus. And to be honest, the C63 isn't any better than the IS-F. And like I said before, look at the M3. Who wins the comparison tests? Who's recognized as the perfect driving sedan? Not the 450hp C63. Image is one thing, but Lexus is not the super amounts of HP image, it never has been and I doubt it'll start. The IS-F commercial goes a long way to show what Lexus is about. But yet it's still Lexus. The GS-F will be the same way.
What Henry is stating is true. Marketing is a very powerful tool in the auto industry. Its cheaper and easier to sell HP and Image/Brand than things like
-carbon fiber
-less weight
-torque vectoring
etc etc
Consumers can easily figure out HP and Marketing knows most people assume more HP =better car. Most people are not gearheads, even the ones that log in and act like they are.
HP is an easy sell, its sexy, it gets people all hot and bothered and its EASY to understand. The first thing most people ask "how much HP does it have".
Just look at the LFA for instance. Neanderthals are quick to point out it "only" has 552hp. They are unimpressed by it. To them it should have at least 600-650hp b/c the RATING is all that matters to people. Well they also have somewhat of a point when it comes to a conversation on bragging rights. Notice how hard it is to explain to someone why the LFA is worth the money. Most people don't understand CF, low inertia, rear radiators, etc etc. People understand more HP.
Bugatti wasn't trying to make the best sports car either. They were trying to make one with the most HP so they can say to the rich who are not car buffs "hey our car is 1.2 million dollars bc it has over 1,000hp".
Nissan is great at attracting people that think HP is everything and this started with the VQ 3.5 where every ad mentions the HP rating. "Oh the Altima has 240hp, the G37 has 330hp" etc etc. Its aimed at those that feel more HP = better car, even if its slower and inferior.
We really don't have much to go on with the GS F as its all still speculation.
However to Henry's point, its much easier for Lexus to sell a 500hp+ GS F then it would be a 450hp one.A very relevant example in this class is the 450hp V-10 used in the Audi S6, S8. WOnderful cars, fast but they are 50-100hp short compared to the E 55/63, S63/65 and even the BMW 760 tt V-12 etc.
So here those wonderful 450hp Audi's are ignored by the press and by people compared to the cars with more power.
10-12-10, 10:28 AM
#935
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Indeed. The XF is definitely a competitor, and the XF-R is quite a bargain for the performance you get. Jag came out of nowhere and created a very nice car. I like the looks very much, but then again, I like the way the GS looks too.
1SICKLEX, when you said earlier that the interior of the new GS will blow us away, what exactly did you mean by that? Lexus interiors have always looked nice and been of generally pretty good quality, so are you talking about the design or electronics functionality etc...? I know there are rumours about a 12" panel in the cockpit. That would be cool, but if it's going to take up that much space I hope it's a touchscreen!
1SICKLEX, when you said earlier that the interior of the new GS will blow us away, what exactly did you mean by that? Lexus interiors have always looked nice and been of generally pretty good quality, so are you talking about the design or electronics functionality etc...? I know there are rumours about a 12" panel in the cockpit. That would be cool, but if it's going to take up that much space I hope it's a touchscreen!
Toyota is debuting something called "intuit" which is their version of Ford sync but supposedly better. I assume the GS will be the first Lexus to also debut some sort of integrated technology piece in regards to phone, GPS, music,Lexus Enform, etc.
10-12-10, 01:04 PM
#936
You know I think it's funny that a mod can say I don't know anything about marketing. When did I say I was a marketing genius? What advertising does is not my profession. I never claimed it was. What's also funny is that I've been saying that HP is not everything. I never said it wasn't important. So taking things out of context in my posts is what seems to be happening. I'm not trying to argue with any of you here. But I have been around for a while now in many states and many areas and i see what sells and what doesn't sell. i see what works to sell and what doesn't. marketing isn't something special you need to go to school to see. You think you'd come to a forum and share your views and have an opinion welcomed, but instead you get laughed at or looked at like you 'don't know anything' about whatever because of some posts. That's just wrong. Marketing has nothing to do with the comments I'm making. I'm stating giving a car like the GS-F 550HP is not necessary to compete. Of course they're going to have to have at least 500HP to keep up, unless the car weighs 3400lbs. which it probably won't. But what I'm saying is that according to many, who are enthusiasts, HP is good, but driving dynamics is better. Case in point is the M3 vs. the C63. I'm not going to keep posting the same thing over and over again. I'm just trying to make a point that in the eyes of many, how a car 'feels' is more important than how fast it can hit 100 or 150mph. What is the difference between Lexus and Mercedes? When has Lexus made a commercial saying- "we gave it 500hp"? That's not Lexus. That's mercedes. So no, my logic isn't flawed. That commercial isn't Lexus. And to be honest, the C63 isn't any better than the IS-F. And like I said before, look at the M3. Who wins the comparison tests? Who's recognized as the perfect driving sedan? Not the 450hp C63. Image is one thing, but Lexus is not the super amounts of HP image, it never has been and I doubt it'll start. The IS-F commercial goes a long way to show what Lexus is about. But yet it's still Lexus. The GS-F will be the same way.
secondly, if you choose to take other people's comments offensively, then i would suggest you to calm down and take it easy, or not post. i don't see in any posts where people is laughing at you. it's been a healthy discussion and debate on the topic of gsf and everyone shows their points and evidence. just because there are people not agreeing with your opinions doesn't mean they are laughing at you. your opinions are still welcome. did anyone tell you to stop talking? are any of your posts removed?
if you actually go back and read my posts carefully, you will actually see that in more than a few places, i explicitly stated that i see your point, and it's totally possible for lexus to make a lighter car with less hp and still perform well. i am agreeing with you on that. but i just stated my points, opinions, and evidence where hp does weigh in quite a bit in today's market.
instead of staying on points, you decided to take things out of context with your post, so i don't know where you are trying to get to.
and if we all go back to the topic, i have asked this before, and i will ask again. imagine c63 now with 450hp, but bmw decides to make the e92 lighter and keep the i6 with 370hp, where the overall performance is actually on par with the current e92 m3 (absolutely doable), do you think the car will sell well? if so, why did bmw bother with forcing in a v8 that drives the cost higher? and again, say the e63 with 518hp now, what if bmw went with the old v8 and tune it to say 450hp, on a lighter e60 platform for similar performance (again, very doable, and cheaper)? do you think the car will sell well?
they are questions, but my answer is no to both. you can argue otherwise of course, but the fact is bmw went with the current e92 and e60 setup for a reason, so you have to ask why. bmw is capable of doing it, but why did they "have" to up the hp game? for what?
for true enthusiasts, of course, they look into everything and thus the weigh of hp won't be as much when compared to overall performance of the car. however, when you look at cars in this segment (entry level, mid-size), where a lot more people aren't true enthusiasts, and the sad fact is hp numbers matter more.
just go back and see how much you have tried to defend the lfa with their "low" hp output, as pointed out by random people. again i am not saying that's right, but what does that say about general public looking at these cars?
regarding the isf, i will tell you this regarding your statement of "but Lexus is not the super amounts of HP image, it never has been and I doubt it'll start". when the car first came out, hp numbers was an unknown. lexus refused to tell people exactly how much hp the car is putting out, but they did say (in more than a few occasions) that it has the most hp in its class (c63 was not released at that point), and i have also heard them saying clearly "it has more hp than the m3". so the truth is, lexus has started it long before you said your statement, and apparently, they care.
10-12-10, 01:23 PM
#937
From my "understanding" the design will have more flair than the current GS in regards to design and use of environmentally sound materials. A priority has been made in the use of stitching, leather and build quality with use of softer plastics. I have also heard some sort of "trick" gauge cluster whatever that means.
Toyota is debuting something called "intuit" which is their version of Ford sync but supposedly better. I assume the GS will be the first Lexus to also debut some sort of integrated technology piece in regards to phone, GPS, music,Lexus Enform, etc.
Toyota is debuting something called "intuit" which is their version of Ford sync but supposedly better. I assume the GS will be the first Lexus to also debut some sort of integrated technology piece in regards to phone, GPS, music,Lexus Enform, etc.
Also environmentally sound materials sounds worrying too. I interpret that as bio-degradeable, which makes me think the dash will start to weaken over time resulting in noises and visible wear. I remember all the electrical issues Mercedes had back when they used bio-degradeable wiring. The problem is the test mules aren't driven for 5 years so they don't notice these issues till its too late.
Use of more leather, wood, french stitching sounds fantastic. I would hope the whole dash is leather covered like in the LS600 and Jag XF, or at least stitched synthetic leather like the Cadillac CTS.
Last edited by *Batman*; 10-12-10 at 01:31 PM.
10-12-10, 02:06 PM
#938
Pole Position
to be honest, i think the whole idea that other cars in lexus lineup can't have higher output than the lfa doesn't make sense. what is that based on? and why? i can see isf having less power than gsf, and gsf less than lsf (hypothetically). but the lfa is a halo car in the super car / exotic area, it shouldn't be considered the same in the "linear" measure.
let's look at other manufacturers
porsche (weaker case as years don't fully overlap but you see the idea)
- porsche gt, 605hp/435tq (yes, it was only 05-06)
- gt2 rs, 620hp/516tq
- gt3 rs, 450hp/317hp
- turbo, 500hp/480tq
question: does that mean the gt3 doesn't make sense coz' a normal turbo has more hp? if i want performance, gt3 rs for me please
mercedes (a lot more comparison)
- sl65/s65, 604hp/738tq
- sls, 563hp/479tq
- slr, 617hp/580tq
question: 65 series pretty much is "insane" in terms of hp and tq, but the slr and sls both exist and they are doing their jobs in the market just fine (subjective preference aside)
audi (moving trend, global market)
- s6, 435hp/398tq
- rs4, 420hp/317tq (hope my number is right)
- rs6, 579hp/479tq (not available in the US)
- r8 4.2, 420hp/317tq
- r8 5.2, 525hp/391tq
question: again, anything wrong with audi? i don't see it. sales of r8 (both 4.2 and 5.2) have been reasonable, getting great exposure in exotic world. 4.2 is actually sharing same engine as rs4. rs6 numbers way more than r8 5.2.
so i don't see the problem with gsf having more hp than the lfa. why lfa has to be the limit? it's a very special different car. it's super sport, weight, construction, etc... in mind, it doesn't "need" 600 or 700 hp, it needs what it can take. isf, gsf, lsf, they are heavy sedan, big, long, everything is different. hp might be, and likely, needed.
so say the lfa having the current v10, and gsf having some sort of power plant pushing 550 to 560hp, but with more low end tq (like the isf), i see absolutely nothing wrong
let's look at other manufacturers
porsche (weaker case as years don't fully overlap but you see the idea)
- porsche gt, 605hp/435tq (yes, it was only 05-06)
- gt2 rs, 620hp/516tq
- gt3 rs, 450hp/317hp
- turbo, 500hp/480tq
question: does that mean the gt3 doesn't make sense coz' a normal turbo has more hp? if i want performance, gt3 rs for me please
mercedes (a lot more comparison)
- sl65/s65, 604hp/738tq
- sls, 563hp/479tq
- slr, 617hp/580tq
question: 65 series pretty much is "insane" in terms of hp and tq, but the slr and sls both exist and they are doing their jobs in the market just fine (subjective preference aside)
audi (moving trend, global market)
- s6, 435hp/398tq
- rs4, 420hp/317tq (hope my number is right)
- rs6, 579hp/479tq (not available in the US)
- r8 4.2, 420hp/317tq
- r8 5.2, 525hp/391tq
question: again, anything wrong with audi? i don't see it. sales of r8 (both 4.2 and 5.2) have been reasonable, getting great exposure in exotic world. 4.2 is actually sharing same engine as rs4. rs6 numbers way more than r8 5.2.
so i don't see the problem with gsf having more hp than the lfa. why lfa has to be the limit? it's a very special different car. it's super sport, weight, construction, etc... in mind, it doesn't "need" 600 or 700 hp, it needs what it can take. isf, gsf, lsf, they are heavy sedan, big, long, everything is different. hp might be, and likely, needed.
so say the lfa having the current v10, and gsf having some sort of power plant pushing 550 to 560hp, but with more low end tq (like the isf), i see absolutely nothing wrong
Porsche's halo currently is GT2/GT2RS which has most hp in its lineup.
MB halo is SL65 Black Series which has most hp by a big margin in huge MB offering.
Audi R8 came out after RS6 and that V10tt is gone when new A6 hits the street.
Point is all these brands have a lot more high hp cars than Lexus and sure some of them overlap but that is because they, lets say MB, started with good segmentation of its AMG cars back in the day. Once the product caught off MB got confident and offered more extreme variants of the same. Lexus does not have that segmentation yet but they will one day. LFA is way too important to have its power rating overshadowed by GS. Probably the same reason why GS might not have a V10 but rather V8. LFA must remain special in every way including hp rating in Lexus lineup if they want it to be a blueprint for F cars.
My prediction is if GS-F comes out it will roll with V8 and low 500hp rating unless it comes out as a hybrid or with some sort of KERS. Like always I could be very wrong and maybe you know something that others dont and cant share.
Last edited by Vladi; 10-12-10 at 02:10 PM.
10-12-10, 02:20 PM
#940
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Are there any reliable sketches? Mag-x generally has good renderings that are close to real. If the debut of the concept is scheduled for Detroit I hope some renderings come out.
10-12-10, 03:14 PM
#941
i do see your point, though i look more closely at the current time frame / line up more than which car came first. and i think in some sense i think all these companies never really care as much what their halo have the most hp.
but like i said i can definitely imagine how lexus might want the lfa to be the king of everything under lexus tent for now. and honestly, if that's the case, i have to say they put a pretty bad limit on themselves.
lfa will be 2012 and 2013? i don't think the lfa is long gone before gsf is here. lexus has to sell all lfa first
but like i said i can definitely imagine how lexus might want the lfa to be the king of everything under lexus tent for now. and honestly, if that's the case, i have to say they put a pretty bad limit on themselves.
lfa will be 2012 and 2013? i don't think the lfa is long gone before gsf is here. lexus has to sell all lfa first
10-12-10, 04:19 PM
#944
Lexus Champion
I didn't take offense, I just said i think it's FUNNY. So it's not like I'm worked up about anything. About the LFA, that's limited to 500 examples. So them saying it has 'only' 552HP is kinda just a stupid point. So what? If it had 652HP but weighed 200lbs. more it'd potentially be faster in a straight line, but what about cornering? The Lamborghini that was just shown off is more in the line of lower weight instead of higher HP. It has the same output as the current Gallardo, but weight is MUCH less. Even Lamborghini as a whole said that this is the direction they need to start taking. Dynamics rather than outright speed.
I'm not arguing like I said. I just feel there's no need to make the most powerful sedan in the market to sell the GS-F. It can say they have 500HP, or it can say it accelerates to 60 in 3.8 seconds. That'd be faster than any of the sedans in it's class. But Launch Control could be used, higher torque could be used, lower weight could be used. Like you guys said, it's all up in the air so far, but I'm leaning towards a lower weight rather than a huge amount of power. I'm not trying to start a fight and say someone's opinions are wrong. I'm just saying these are my guesses as to what Lexus will do seeing as how it's done things with the LFA.
I'm not arguing like I said. I just feel there's no need to make the most powerful sedan in the market to sell the GS-F. It can say they have 500HP, or it can say it accelerates to 60 in 3.8 seconds. That'd be faster than any of the sedans in it's class. But Launch Control could be used, higher torque could be used, lower weight could be used. Like you guys said, it's all up in the air so far, but I'm leaning towards a lower weight rather than a huge amount of power. I'm not trying to start a fight and say someone's opinions are wrong. I'm just saying these are my guesses as to what Lexus will do seeing as how it's done things with the LFA.
10-12-10, 05:20 PM
#945
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I didn't take offense, I just said i think it's FUNNY. So it's not like I'm worked up about anything. About the LFA, that's limited to 500 examples. So them saying it has 'only' 552HP is kinda just a stupid point. So what? If it had 652HP but weighed 200lbs. more it'd potentially be faster in a straight line, but what about cornering? The Lamborghini that was just shown off is more in the line of lower weight instead of higher HP. It has the same output as the current Gallardo, but weight is MUCH less. Even Lamborghini as a whole said that this is the direction they need to start taking. Dynamics rather than outright speed.
I'm not arguing like I said. I just feel there's no need to make the most powerful sedan in the market to sell the GS-F. It can say they have 500HP, or it can say it accelerates to 60 in 3.8 seconds. That'd be faster than any of the sedans in it's class. But Launch Control could be used, higher torque could be used, lower weight could be used. Like you guys said, it's all up in the air so far, but I'm leaning towards a lower weight rather than a huge amount of power. I'm not trying to start a fight and say someone's opinions are wrong. I'm just saying these are my guesses as to what Lexus will do seeing as how it's done things with the LFA.
I'm not arguing like I said. I just feel there's no need to make the most powerful sedan in the market to sell the GS-F. It can say they have 500HP, or it can say it accelerates to 60 in 3.8 seconds. That'd be faster than any of the sedans in it's class. But Launch Control could be used, higher torque could be used, lower weight could be used. Like you guys said, it's all up in the air so far, but I'm leaning towards a lower weight rather than a huge amount of power. I'm not trying to start a fight and say someone's opinions are wrong. I'm just saying these are my guesses as to what Lexus will do seeing as how it's done things with the LFA.