4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
12-03-10, 07:36 AM
#1111
Lexus Test Driver
Sorry to discuss the GS-F but I want to agree with the comments below.. 0-60 in 4.5 seconds is not competitive with Cadillac, Mercedes or BMW.
It looks like the new GSh will be the choice for me - which I think I'll be fine with...
It looks like the new GSh will be the choice for me - which I think I'll be fine with...
Nobody is going to buy a $90,000-$100,000 465 HP sports saloon that gets from 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds.
These articles are making a mockery of a potential GS-F. Those figures are patently absurd.
Why would Lexus create a car that's more expensive than the F10 M5/E63 AMG but has markedly less (straight line) performance? It's absurd.
If that is the case, then no offense but "no thanks." I'll be looking at the F10 M5/E63 AMG if I am in the market for that type of vehicle. The GS-F won't even be on my radar, and that's perfectly fine. I have no loyalties to any car brand.
These articles are making a mockery of a potential GS-F. Those figures are patently absurd.
Why would Lexus create a car that's more expensive than the F10 M5/E63 AMG but has markedly less (straight line) performance? It's absurd.
If that is the case, then no offense but "no thanks." I'll be looking at the F10 M5/E63 AMG if I am in the market for that type of vehicle. The GS-F won't even be on my radar, and that's perfectly fine. I have no loyalties to any car brand.
12-03-10, 07:44 AM
#1112
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Seems like that's near the status quo for the class.
Not saying that they shouldn't go for the jugular, just saying.
12-03-10, 08:08 AM
#1113
Lexus Test Driver
It isn't?
Seems like that's near the status quo for the class.
Not saying that they shouldn't go for the jugular, just saying.
Seems like that's near the status quo for the class.
Not saying that they shouldn't go for the jugular, just saying.
I believe the power of the IS-F is more apparent in the quarter mile as well over it's 0-60 time...
In any event, I've seen a stock E63 AMG hit 60 in 4.0 seconds and I believe the CTS-V can do it, if driven well, in 3.9...
The new GT-R is just insane at 2.9...
12-03-10, 09:18 AM
#1114
I was thinking about this car last night and realized that it's no wonder they are taking their own sweet time with finishing and releasing it. The 4GS will be a more significant car for Lexus than I initially realized, and I will share why:
DESIGN:
While I believe that the new ES will debut next year (before the GS), the GS will be the first 100% Lexus vehicle to be redesigned after getting the L-Finesse treatment initially in 06.
Why is this important? Well, when the 3GS debuted it's obvious that every other car thereafter followed a similar design theme. The GS was our "preview" for what the rest of the range might look like, so once we see the 4GS I'm sure that photochops of the IS, LS, and SC will start popping up rapidly and we can start making our own educated guesses about what those cars will look like.
I'm a fan of L-Finesse but am also ready to see what the second generation of this design language will look like, and the 4GS should be our first glimpse.
ENGINEERING
This will be one of the most interesting areas because a lot has changed since the 3GS debuted. There have been many rumors about Lexus focusing on weight reduction and they have stated that they are hoping to use more carbon fiber across the line (based on what they learned and invested with the LFA).
Importantly, Lexus PR has openly stated that they are now focused on making more driver-oriented vehicles. The torque vectoring rumor would lend some credence to this statement by Lexus.
Lexus built two world class, high performance cars in the last two years (ISF and LFA) and we can only hope that some of what they learned will be translated to other models. I think this will be the case since Lexus has insinuated as much on different occasions.
One personal nitpick I have always had with the 3GS is the electronic power steering. After making constant updates to the IS and engineering the HS and CT, Lexus finally seems to have their act together in this area and I'm excited to see how the new GS drives.
ENGINES:
I think this will be the biggest revelation, personally. Toyota has previously stated that the company was looking into forced induction, specifically electronic-assisted turbos (read this one too), and just recently they confirmed that they would start using forced induction on new models.
This is a huge development for Lexus, who is somewhat late to the party as Audi has been doing it for decades, and BMW and MB are now using the technology too. That said, Lexus does have the strongest V6 in the segment and I don't see much of a reason for them to dumb it down to ~250hp and then add a turbo. The GS/IS 350 are both wonderfully fuel efficient as well so I see no reason to alter that engine very much. I'm expecting them to make a few minor changes and add Valvematic for an output somewhere around 330hp in the base car.
Now, onto those turbos. To quote Toyota's research:
Now, it has been widely rumored that the V8 model is no longer and the “performance GS” will now be the hybrid. If this is to be the case, I don’t think a TT/hybrid GS would be even remotely out of the question. It might seem like a long shot at the moment but Toyota has dropped numerous hints about forced induction in the last few months, CAFÉ standards are just around the corner, the V8 model is allegedly gone, and the GS still needs a car between the base V6 and F models. Originally, I wasn’t too excited about the V8 dying, but if they pull off a TT hybrid V6 then I am all for it.
This leads me to another topic which is the hybrid technology itself. The GS is obviously slated to receive an updated LHD powertrain and if they base it off a version of the 3GR-FSE (say, with Valvematic and the updates I mentioned above) and add the latest hybrid touches, you are easily looking at more than 30MPG combined, and probably at least in the neighborhood of 370hp. Add to that the (completely hypothetical) turbos and you suddenly see how such a car could compete with the 550i and E550 without a problem.
So, that is my little rant about this car and I hope it makes some sense to you guys. A lot of this is hypothetical obviously, but when you look at the competition, the industry, certain comments that Lexus has made, and also consider what the car would need to be competitive, I wonder just how far off I really am. If you didn’t click that hyperlink above about electric-assisted turbos, I highly recommend that you do.
DESIGN:
While I believe that the new ES will debut next year (before the GS), the GS will be the first 100% Lexus vehicle to be redesigned after getting the L-Finesse treatment initially in 06.
Why is this important? Well, when the 3GS debuted it's obvious that every other car thereafter followed a similar design theme. The GS was our "preview" for what the rest of the range might look like, so once we see the 4GS I'm sure that photochops of the IS, LS, and SC will start popping up rapidly and we can start making our own educated guesses about what those cars will look like.
I'm a fan of L-Finesse but am also ready to see what the second generation of this design language will look like, and the 4GS should be our first glimpse.
ENGINEERING
This will be one of the most interesting areas because a lot has changed since the 3GS debuted. There have been many rumors about Lexus focusing on weight reduction and they have stated that they are hoping to use more carbon fiber across the line (based on what they learned and invested with the LFA).
Importantly, Lexus PR has openly stated that they are now focused on making more driver-oriented vehicles. The torque vectoring rumor would lend some credence to this statement by Lexus.
Lexus built two world class, high performance cars in the last two years (ISF and LFA) and we can only hope that some of what they learned will be translated to other models. I think this will be the case since Lexus has insinuated as much on different occasions.
One personal nitpick I have always had with the 3GS is the electronic power steering. After making constant updates to the IS and engineering the HS and CT, Lexus finally seems to have their act together in this area and I'm excited to see how the new GS drives.
ENGINES:
I think this will be the biggest revelation, personally. Toyota has previously stated that the company was looking into forced induction, specifically electronic-assisted turbos (read this one too), and just recently they confirmed that they would start using forced induction on new models.
This is a huge development for Lexus, who is somewhat late to the party as Audi has been doing it for decades, and BMW and MB are now using the technology too. That said, Lexus does have the strongest V6 in the segment and I don't see much of a reason for them to dumb it down to ~250hp and then add a turbo. The GS/IS 350 are both wonderfully fuel efficient as well so I see no reason to alter that engine very much. I'm expecting them to make a few minor changes and add Valvematic for an output somewhere around 330hp in the base car.
Now, onto those turbos. To quote Toyota's research:
In a seminal paper, Hiroshi Uchida of the Toyota Central Research and Development Labs has given a dramatic technical insight into where turbocharging is headed. The paper, Trends in Turbocharging Technologies, shows how turbos will be used in the next decade of high fuel efficiency, low CO2 emissions engines. Linking compound twin turbocharging with electric motor assist and variable geometry turbos, Uchida explains the form in which turbos will dominate production car engineering.
This leads me to another topic which is the hybrid technology itself. The GS is obviously slated to receive an updated LHD powertrain and if they base it off a version of the 3GR-FSE (say, with Valvematic and the updates I mentioned above) and add the latest hybrid touches, you are easily looking at more than 30MPG combined, and probably at least in the neighborhood of 370hp. Add to that the (completely hypothetical) turbos and you suddenly see how such a car could compete with the 550i and E550 without a problem.
So, that is my little rant about this car and I hope it makes some sense to you guys. A lot of this is hypothetical obviously, but when you look at the competition, the industry, certain comments that Lexus has made, and also consider what the car would need to be competitive, I wonder just how far off I really am. If you didn’t click that hyperlink above about electric-assisted turbos, I highly recommend that you do.
12-03-10, 09:25 AM
#1115
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A thought:
I think electric-assisted turbos go together very well with electric variable valve timing systems as well as hybrid systems
.
What do I think? Expect the unexpected, Toyota has surprised before, and they will certainly surprise again in the future.
I think electric-assisted turbos go together very well with electric variable valve timing systems as well as hybrid systems
.What do I think? Expect the unexpected, Toyota has surprised before, and they will certainly surprise again in the future.
12-03-10, 09:27 AM
#1116
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^^ That was well written and thought out. Could the GS debut a turbo? That would be something. It probably would be a huge hit in Japan as well.
I also agree with you that the GS has to drive sportier and I think it will looking at newer vehicles. The LFA team needs something to do "D.
As for the GSh I have a feeling with the regular V-8 dropped they will put more focus into this model, including marketing and then give it higher sales targets. I think the current model is an experiment they must be happy with since they are going to offer a next gen. While less complicated the Fuga hybrid/M35 hybrid is offering 360hp and 27 MPG which is impressive for that size vehicle but we are not sure on price/performance or proven quality yet. What you are proposing will add even more complexity and cost to an already complex and costly hybrid system. It also should be able to bump the LS 600h L into the 500hp range.
I think we all agree the GS needs to spice things up again and I think Lexus got the memo. I really just hope the GS F comes and is a credible player.
I also agree with you that the GS has to drive sportier and I think it will looking at newer vehicles. The LFA team needs something to do "D.
As for the GSh I have a feeling with the regular V-8 dropped they will put more focus into this model, including marketing and then give it higher sales targets. I think the current model is an experiment they must be happy with since they are going to offer a next gen. While less complicated the Fuga hybrid/M35 hybrid is offering 360hp and 27 MPG which is impressive for that size vehicle but we are not sure on price/performance or proven quality yet. What you are proposing will add even more complexity and cost to an already complex and costly hybrid system. It also should be able to bump the LS 600h L into the 500hp range.
I think we all agree the GS needs to spice things up again and I think Lexus got the memo. I really just hope the GS F comes and is a credible player.
12-03-10, 10:10 AM
#1118
Also, you wont get TT hybrids, those two technologies negate each other. It also makes vehicles very expensive to have both things.
12-03-10, 10:13 AM
#1119
No, it wouldn't be a Prius where the #1goal is fuel efficiency, but it could certainly work for a premium sporty car.
12-03-10, 10:14 AM
#1120
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.I'd be happy enough with:
GS300 - 265-290 HP 3.0L V6 with Valvematic, 8AT
GS350 - 335-340 HP 3.5L V6 with Valvematic, 8AT
GS500h - 370-400 HP turbo 3.5L V6 with Valvematic, CVT with virtual "gears"
GS F - 520 HP turbo 5.0L V8 with Valvematic, 8AT direct shift
Basically if the actual lineup is anything close to this, I'd be happy. If the GS F is under 500 HP that will be a huge disappointment however.
12-03-10, 10:56 AM
#1122
All the current photos of GS-F are not real. Lexus has not even released the official specs for 4GS yet. So, there is no point of even reading such articles. It is fun to speculate, but at the end Lexus may suprise us all, like they did when 3GS debuted......they did correct the mistake in 2007, but it was too late
12-03-10, 01:37 PM
#1125
Lead Lap
for $90-100K...it better be.