rominl

iTrader: (4)

at what ratio though? you see more 550 on the road compared to gs460 but there are tons more 5 on the road too. overall ratio i don't think would be that much more different. v8 is just a small portion sold for each brand.

but yes, i am very much against the idea of taking away the v8 from the normal gs line, it loses that prestige status

gsf from day 1? why? m cars are always 1 yr after model lineup debut. amg cars also come after the normal lineup is released. i think 1 yr time frame is ok, but more than that and it's getting diluted

v8 in gsf is not the problem. the overall hp and performance is the key. the e63 (with 6.2L v8) sold just fine.

hahahaha i think "if i stay with lexus" is the key. the way i see it, for one looking at a certain segment (gs size), it's really hard to justify the change to isf or ls sport

i really don't see that happening. a normal v8 gs is what, 60k? if lexus ever makes a gsf, it will not be 60k, it will be substantially more (and if it's really 60k, either lexus is smoking something or the car is a joke). people looking at v8 gs (or equivalent) won't be looking at gsf.

just the same with e550 vs e63 and 550 vs m5, they are like 20k difference. same with is350 vs isf, it's quite a gap on pricing

Riceater

I agree. IMO, Lexus will have to change quite a bit with the GS model in order to keep up with an E63, C63, CTS-V, or M5 when it comes to performance. And if the price tag ends up being in the $80,000 range.. I feel a lot of people will be buying from Mercedes instead.

*Batman*

Re GSF pricing, it depends how high they go. Above MSRP of 80k I think it will be a tough sell without the pedigree, but yeah, I wouldn't expect it to sell for 60k.

The 470hp all aluminum Jaguar XJ Supercharged starts at $87k. I don't think the GSF should be more than that, regardless of how the M5 is priced.

*Batman*

That 20k price difference is getting pretty hard to justify paying given how good the 550i has become. I heard on bimmerfest that the 550xi with the $3k Dinan Stage 1 upgrade, is faster than an E60 M5 on track.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

?? 80k is "cheap" by comparison. e63 and m5 are both 6 digit dollar value car on paper. e500 and 550 are both msrp around 70-80k for reasonably optioned cars. and if lexus makes a gsf to compete with these, then it's a fail

comparison between different generation is pretty pointless. we haven't even seen what the f10 m5 can do. it's just like saying the 335 with some mods can beat the e46 m3. so what? on the track the e90/93 m3 still shine above the 335.

amg and m cars aren't for everyone. imho it's cross that line "money for the value".

jjbenzo

We are in the market to buy a new car this year. As it stands, I am only interested in V8 models. There is no way I would sell one of my V8 sport sedans for a V6...even if it has 320 hp. I want the grunt of the V8, the sound of the V8 and the prestige of the V8. There is nothing more fun than a torque monsterious V8. I think it would be a mistake for Lexus to drop the V8 model, even if they bring a GSF on board! Currently the Mercedes E550 is looking like the winner for the money. As far as I'm concerned, a middle weight, sport sedan like this must offer a V8. I would love to love the new GS, but if it looks anything like the bland car in the photos, I'll pass.

NKAZ

FYI, according to Japanese car magazine, they expect the price of GSF in Japan will be in range between 9M yen and 10M yen.

In Japan the base model of GS460 is sold at the price of 6.75M yen.
In the US, GS460's MSRP is $54.6k.

If Lexus raise the GSF price in the US as same as in Japan, it will be between $72.6k and $80.8k (33%-48% higher than the base) in the US.

I'm not sure whether the information in the magazine is accurate or not.

BTW, the price of GS460 in the US is much cheaper than the price in Japan.
$54.6k is about 4.74M yen (at the rate of $1=85 yen).

*Batman*

I think at that price, this car will sell like hot cakes. If they price it at $100k it will be a depreciation nightmare with very limited sales.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

if they price the gsf at 75-80k, AND assume that the car performs on par with the e63 and m5, then i think it will be a good contender

NKAZ

I think you guys are right.

However, for us, Japanese, 10M yen is too expensive for GSF.
If Lexus delivers GSF as the same design as the picture I posted before at this price, I may go with GT-R.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

stop paying too much attention in those renderings. you should have seen plenty on a lot of other cars given you are in japan, i never give a damn about them until it's more official from the manufacturers

for comparison sake though, how much is a reasonably loaded m5 / e63 over there? that's what you compare to

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

Since the GSF will not have the LFA's engine, I dont see any reason why it should cost more than $75k.

*Batman*

Pricing often has nothing to do with reason. The Infiniti M56S fully loaded runs around $74k MSRP. We all know how poorly that's selling.

Right now the only luxury car company's you can count on to deliver value are Hyundai, Cadillac and Lexus. Time will tell if Lexus chooses to stay as a value play, or price itself out like Infiniti.

The fact that the LS460 is $20k less than its competitors, leads me to think that the GSF will offer a similar value advantage. I think this is important because this is the reason Lexus' don't depreciate as much as other brands.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

if it has the lfa engine, put it the other way, i don't think it will be under 100k. you have to read about the construction of that engine

and what does engine by itself has to do with the price of a car? coz' it's v10? v8 in e63 makes the car 100k. there are a lot more that goes into a car to determine the price (granted, that doesn't make me think 100k on e63 and m5 is reasonable)

*Batman*

I do think a V10 or V12 makes it easier for people to justify paying a premium.

Conversely, if you look at the X5:
xDrive50, 4.4 V8 Twinpower Turbo with 400 hp and 450 lbft of torque, $58k
X5M, 4.4 V8 M Twinpower Turbo with 555hp and 500 lbft of torque, $85k
Dinan xDrive50 4.4V8 Twinpower Turbo has 495hp and 570 lbft, $61k

So option 3 - Dinan significantly reduces the price-value of the M model because they can achieve similar engine performance increase at a fraction of cost. Yes there are other differences - suspension, brakes, cosmetics. But this option 3 didn't exist when these cars were naturally aspirated.

So my point is simple - the move by German OEMs to FI has diminished the value proposition of their tuner sub-brands.