4th Generation GS Reviews Thread
05-15-12, 01:43 AM
#301
Compliant Springs on Firmish Dampers
My friend who also test drove the GS350 base, F Sport, and the A6 3.0 Supercharged Quattro with 18", also wanted me to say that, when both the base 18" and F Sport 19" GS's hit a sharp bump or pot hole, the shock would be superbly absorbed.
However, when the A6 18" hit the same sharp bump or pot hole, there would be a sharp thump!
As we've said before, our base model A6 was slightly floaty.
The base GS was well damped, and the F Sport more firmly damped.
The superb shock absorption from the two GS's is actually due to compliant telescopic springs.
The F Sports springs are a little firmer than the standard GS springs.
Now, the regular sharp thumps from the Audi A6 is due to the use of firmer springs!
Meanwhile the plushness and even floatiness of the A6 is due to low resistance dampers, or shock absorbers are some call it.
Hence, we understand that the GS pair use compliant springs, on firmish dampers.
The compliant springs will have a little more lean.
The F Sport on Sport + mode will activate the 1 or 2 degrees of active rear wheel steering, to help stabilise the rear end from fish tailing especially under power.
Meanwhile, the A6 uses firmer springs, for a slighlty bobbier and bouncier ride, yet flatter cornering, on soft floaty dampers.
Thus the A6 achieves some of its dynamic prowess by the use of firmer spings that keep the car flatter around corners, to minimise weight transfer to the outside wheel, keeping all four wheels planted flat to maximise grip.
Likewise, the A6 uses soft floaty dampers, to give an impression of comfort.
It should be noted that the A6's dampers are far far softer, than its springs are firm.
The floatiness on the A6 is due to low frequency oscillations, while the more firmly damped GS has higher frequency oscillation on the dampers, while the F Sport is most firmly damped, with the highest frequency of oscillations.
When the F Sport is in Sport+ mode, the damping is firmer again, and we can really feel the high frequency of oscillations after bumps.
The sea-sick floaty lower frequency oscillations of the Audi A6 decays very slowly.
However, the firmer damping higher frequency oscillations of the GS decays very rapidly; almost instantly for the F Sport in Sports+ mode.
Floaty lower frequency vertical oscillations give comfort.
Rapid frequency vertical oscillations transmit more force to the human body, hence its not so comfortable, but more tiring.
Too low a frequency from floaty dampers will give a feeling of sea sickness.
As some have said before, many years ago when a Japanese car had sheer bottom end torque, and pulled plenty of g's of terminal grip - its slight floatiness etc would be criticised.
Now, the GS is superbly damped, yet it is the floatier A6 with the sheer speed that wins praise.
In truth, rather than saying that one is better than the other overall, I would say that one car has better outright speed, while the other car has better attitude and control...
My friend who also test drove the GS350 base, F Sport, and the A6 3.0 Supercharged Quattro with 18", also wanted me to say that, when both the base 18" and F Sport 19" GS's hit a sharp bump or pot hole, the shock would be superbly absorbed.
However, when the A6 18" hit the same sharp bump or pot hole, there would be a sharp thump!
As we've said before, our base model A6 was slightly floaty.
The base GS was well damped, and the F Sport more firmly damped.
The superb shock absorption from the two GS's is actually due to compliant telescopic springs.
The F Sports springs are a little firmer than the standard GS springs.
Now, the regular sharp thumps from the Audi A6 is due to the use of firmer springs!
Meanwhile the plushness and even floatiness of the A6 is due to low resistance dampers, or shock absorbers are some call it.
Hence, we understand that the GS pair use compliant springs, on firmish dampers.
The compliant springs will have a little more lean.
The F Sport on Sport + mode will activate the 1 or 2 degrees of active rear wheel steering, to help stabilise the rear end from fish tailing especially under power.
Meanwhile, the A6 uses firmer springs, for a slighlty bobbier and bouncier ride, yet flatter cornering, on soft floaty dampers.
Thus the A6 achieves some of its dynamic prowess by the use of firmer spings that keep the car flatter around corners, to minimise weight transfer to the outside wheel, keeping all four wheels planted flat to maximise grip.
Likewise, the A6 uses soft floaty dampers, to give an impression of comfort.
It should be noted that the A6's dampers are far far softer, than its springs are firm.
The floatiness on the A6 is due to low frequency oscillations, while the more firmly damped GS has higher frequency oscillation on the dampers, while the F Sport is most firmly damped, with the highest frequency of oscillations.
When the F Sport is in Sport+ mode, the damping is firmer again, and we can really feel the high frequency of oscillations after bumps.
The sea-sick floaty lower frequency oscillations of the Audi A6 decays very slowly.
However, the firmer damping higher frequency oscillations of the GS decays very rapidly; almost instantly for the F Sport in Sports+ mode.
Floaty lower frequency vertical oscillations give comfort.
Rapid frequency vertical oscillations transmit more force to the human body, hence its not so comfortable, but more tiring.
Too low a frequency from floaty dampers will give a feeling of sea sickness.
As some have said before, many years ago when a Japanese car had sheer bottom end torque, and pulled plenty of g's of terminal grip - its slight floatiness etc would be criticised.
Now, the GS is superbly damped, yet it is the floatier A6 with the sheer speed that wins praise.
In truth, rather than saying that one is better than the other overall, I would say that one car has better outright speed, while the other car has better attitude and control...
Last edited by peteharvey; 05-15-12 at 03:47 PM.
05-15-12, 01:58 AM
#302
Top End
Mr Burns brought up an interesting topic about top end power, or top end torque etc.
GS69's post shows that the GS has a top speed of 142 mph to the A6's 130 mph.
Just as well.
Both have roughly 310 horses, yet the A6 with its AWD weighs about 100 kg or 220 pounds more.
So the GS has a better power to weight ratio than the A6.
Hence, ultimately, the GS clearly has a higher top speed than the A6; however, this may be electronically limited in both cases???
Or is the top speed real??
Theoretically, the better power to weight ratio should have the higher top speed.
Down the bottom end, despite its extra weight, the A6 3.0 Supercharged 8 speed gearbox AWD is considerably faster than the GS.
The GS has been designed to maximise middle and top end torque.
If my memory is correct, a Camry 3.5 V6 actually has a punchier bottom end than the GS 3.5.
One has been tuned for bottom end torque, the GS with direct injection for top end torque.
The GS could improve in the bottom end.
We were not able to venture onto a race track for obvious reasons.
A race track would void the GS's comprehensive motor vehicle insurance.
However, on a race track, I would expect the GS to open up to the A6.
As speeds rise, the GS should gradually out-accelerate the A6 3.0 Supercharged Quattro, and gradually out-top speed the A6 too; 142 to 130 mph.
At high speeds, the more firmly damped GS's, especially the F Sport should have much greater stability than the A6 we tested with floaty dampers and no electronic damper control whatsoever, unless optioned from the factory in Germany, and 2 months delivery to the USA.
So, for a really fair comparison of the GS to the A6, we would have to say that the A6 does well with numbers at local traffic speeds, but the GS probably outpaces the A6 at high speeds, on the race track, both in the straight line, and possibly around hi speed curves as well.
Unfortunately, we just could not directly test this high speed aspect of the motor cars...
Mr Burns brought up an interesting topic about top end power, or top end torque etc.
GS69's post shows that the GS has a top speed of 142 mph to the A6's 130 mph.
Just as well.
Both have roughly 310 horses, yet the A6 with its AWD weighs about 100 kg or 220 pounds more.
So the GS has a better power to weight ratio than the A6.
Hence, ultimately, the GS clearly has a higher top speed than the A6; however, this may be electronically limited in both cases???
Or is the top speed real??
Theoretically, the better power to weight ratio should have the higher top speed.
Down the bottom end, despite its extra weight, the A6 3.0 Supercharged 8 speed gearbox AWD is considerably faster than the GS.
The GS has been designed to maximise middle and top end torque.
If my memory is correct, a Camry 3.5 V6 actually has a punchier bottom end than the GS 3.5.
One has been tuned for bottom end torque, the GS with direct injection for top end torque.
The GS could improve in the bottom end.
We were not able to venture onto a race track for obvious reasons.
A race track would void the GS's comprehensive motor vehicle insurance.
However, on a race track, I would expect the GS to open up to the A6.
As speeds rise, the GS should gradually out-accelerate the A6 3.0 Supercharged Quattro, and gradually out-top speed the A6 too; 142 to 130 mph.
At high speeds, the more firmly damped GS's, especially the F Sport should have much greater stability than the A6 we tested with floaty dampers and no electronic damper control whatsoever, unless optioned from the factory in Germany, and 2 months delivery to the USA.
So, for a really fair comparison of the GS to the A6, we would have to say that the A6 does well with numbers at local traffic speeds, but the GS probably outpaces the A6 at high speeds, on the race track, both in the straight line, and possibly around hi speed curves as well.
Unfortunately, we just could not directly test this high speed aspect of the motor cars...
Last edited by peteharvey; 05-15-12 at 02:35 AM.
05-15-12, 04:47 AM
#303
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Globe & Mail
The Laguna Seca Raceway is not a road circuit for the faint of heart with its famed corkscrew, the elevation changes, the wicked hairpin leading to the long straightaway in front of the pits.
That explains why Lexus – Toyota’s luxury brand – has it for the day. The 5th Estate is here to bear witness to the performance bona fides of the thoroughly reinvented GS 450h hybrid “performance sedan.” The Lexus clan wants to bang into our heads that the GS hybrid is a race-ready road warrior the likes of BMW’s M5 and Mercedes’ E63 AG.
globe rating:
8.5/10
Sandy Di Felice of Lexus public relations in fact points out that the “GS 450h entered and won – twice – at Targa Newfoundland. And the GS was the very first vehicle to cross that finish line in EV Mode.” She is correct. The GS hybrid has been a winner at Targa Newfoundland, which in human terms is akin to winning the Whistler Triathlon.8.5/10
But just because the GS hybrid can ferry its driver and passenger through, what, 10 days of living hell at the end of Canada does not mean this car can go toe-to-toe with a the 518-horsepower monster that is the E63 ($99,500), nor is it close to being a match for the frighteningly capable M5 (560 hp, $101,500).
The 2013 GS 450h is its own work of engineering genius, however, and at $64,500 it is vastly more affordable than either German powerhouse. It is also kinder to the planet, more fuel-efficient (6.4 litres/100 km in the city, 6.2 on the highway), staggeringly more comfortable to drive day-to-day and wonderfully reliable.
What we should not do is get all carried away with this high-performance obsession. Sure, we’re up to our eyeballs in fun on 1 of North America’s most intimidating race tracks. I love this place. But you can find more suitable sedans to hot-lap the Laguna. That said, I certainly enjoyed stretching the hybrid’s legs here.
Or should I say the two sets of legs designed to work together or separately in the GS Hybrid. That’s what a parallel hybrid is: a gas power train and an electric 1 integrated by some shockingly intelligent computer controls. With a combined output of 338 hp from its 3.5-litre V-6 engine, 2 electric motors (80 hp and 200 hp) and a 288-volt battery pack, this GS has the jam to get out of its own way, though this sedan is a porky 1,901 kg. It should. The GS 450h boasts the world’s most proven hybrid system, the Lexus Hybrid Drive which of course is just like the Toyota Hybrid Drive in the Prius, only more so.
Without a doubt, there is power enough to climb the long, uphill straight on the front side of this track. The new chassis, including a more aggressively tuned suspension (struts up front with aluminum controls arms and a multi-link setup at the rear), nicely manages the corners here, too – including the nasty drop into the famed hairpin.
The standard Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) helps to smooth the bumps and manage body roll. Naturally, electronic stability control is standard, too – here it’s called the Lexus Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management system or VDIM. Truth is, the Lexus hybrid is sure and even entertaining to a point, but there is no getting around the fact that an astonishing array of systems are busily at work and when you push too hard you can almost feel the GS hybrid thinking – thinking quickly, mind you – about what do and how to do it.
Off the track and in the pits, I am thinking about the GS design, which is all-new and nice. It’s a clean look, round and well-proportioned and decorated with what Lexus calls a “spindle grille,” an assortment of lines, alloy wheels and LED daytime running lights. Lexus has widely gone for something understated and elegant and I like it.
The interior is an improvement, as well. Most will applaud the all-white ambient LED lighting and leather instrument panel, and everyone should welcome enough cabin room for 4 adults, 5 if you must. The trunk is adequate, though not overly large. The latest version of Lexus’s Remote Touch controller is more user-friendly than any of the German controller systems, too.
And on and on and on. Of course this Lexus is loaded, though you can spend much more if you start ticking the options boxes. Take the Technology Package, which for $12,500 gets you a heated wood steering wheel, heated rear seats, a heads-up display, a back-up camera, LED headlamps, radar cruise control, a blind spot monitor, the Nightview system for seeing in the dark and more. This package, along with freight and dealer prep, turns a $64,500 car into an $80,000 one in a blink.
Lexus argues back that the base price is a “remarkable $12,000 less” than the base price of the old GS hybrid and there’s a point there. The most important point of all, though, is this: The GS Hybrid is the world’s best buy in a premium hybrid sedan.
It may not be the pure performance car Lexus would have you believe, but it’s impressive nonetheless.
jcato@globeandmail.com
Tech specs
2013 Lexus GS 450h
Type: Luxury/performance sedan
Base Price: $64,650 (freight $1,995)
Engine: 3.5-litre V-6
Horsepower/torque: 286 hp/254 lb-ft
Transmission: CVT
Hybrid/electric drive: 288-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack and 2 electric motors, one rated at 180 hp, the other 200 hp
Combined hybrid output: 338 hp
Drive: Rear-wheel
Fuel economy (litres/100 km): 6.4 city/6.2 highway; premium gas
Alternatives: BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AG, Chrysler 300C SRT-8
2013 Lexus GS 450h
Type: Luxury/performance sedan
Base Price: $64,650 (freight $1,995)
Engine: 3.5-litre V-6
Horsepower/torque: 286 hp/254 lb-ft
Transmission: CVT
Hybrid/electric drive: 288-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack and 2 electric motors, one rated at 180 hp, the other 200 hp
Combined hybrid output: 338 hp
Drive: Rear-wheel
Fuel economy (litres/100 km): 6.4 city/6.2 highway; premium gas
Alternatives: BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AG, Chrysler 300C SRT-8
05-15-12, 07:03 AM
#304
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
wow, some really great info and feedback here. thanks.
peteharvey, thanks for extensive write-ups.
peteharvey, thanks for extensive write-ups.
05-16-12, 01:08 PM
#305
Lead Lap
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ontario
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This journalist usually has not been very nice to Lexus/Toyota vehicles. This is a big improvement.
The Laguna Seca Raceway is not a road circuit for the faint of heart with its famed corkscrew, the elevation changes, the wicked hairpin leading to the long straightaway in front of the pits.
That explains why Lexus – Toyota’s luxury brand – has it for the day. The 5th Estate is here to bear witness to the performance bona fides of the thoroughly reinvented GS 450h hybrid “performance sedan.” The Lexus clan wants to bang into our heads that the GS hybrid is a race-ready road warrior the likes of BMW’s M5 and Mercedes’ E63 AG.
But just because the GS hybrid can ferry its driver and passenger through, what, 10 days of living hell at the end of Canada does not mean this car can go toe-to-toe with a the 518-horsepower monster that is the E63 ($99,500), nor is it close to being a match for the frighteningly capable M5 (560 hp, $101,500).
The 2013 GS 450h is its own work of engineering genius, however, and at $64,500 it is vastly more affordable than either German powerhouse. It is also kinder to the planet, more fuel-efficient (6.4 litres/100 km in the city, 6.2 on the highway), staggeringly more comfortable to drive day-to-day and wonderfully reliable.
What we should not do is get all carried away with this high-performance obsession. Sure, we’re up to our eyeballs in fun on 1 of North America’s most intimidating race tracks. I love this place. But you can find more suitable sedans to hot-lap the Laguna. That said, I certainly enjoyed stretching the hybrid’s legs here.
Or should I say the two sets of legs designed to work together or separately in the GS Hybrid. That’s what a parallel hybrid is: a gas power train and an electric 1 integrated by some shockingly intelligent computer controls. With a combined output of 338 hp from its 3.5-litre V-6 engine, 2 electric motors (80 hp and 200 hp) and a 288-volt battery pack, this GS has the jam to get out of its own way, though this sedan is a porky 1,901 kg. It should. The GS 450h boasts the world’s most proven hybrid system, the Lexus Hybrid Drive which of course is just like the Toyota Hybrid Drive in the Prius, only more so.
Without a doubt, there is power enough to climb the long, uphill straight on the front side of this track. The new chassis, including a more aggressively tuned suspension (struts up front with aluminum controls arms and a multi-link setup at the rear), nicely manages the corners here, too – including the nasty drop into the famed hairpin.
The standard Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) helps to smooth the bumps and manage body roll. Naturally, electronic stability control is standard, too – here it’s called the Lexus Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management system or VDIM. Truth is, the Lexus hybrid is sure and even entertaining to a point, but there is no getting around the fact that an astonishing array of systems are busily at work and when you push too hard you can almost feel the GS hybrid thinking – thinking quickly, mind you – about what do and how to do it.
Off the track and in the pits, I am thinking about the GS design, which is all-new and nice. It’s a clean look, round and well-proportioned and decorated with what Lexus calls a “spindle grille,” an assortment of lines, alloy wheels and LED daytime running lights. Lexus has widely gone for something understated and elegant and I like it.
The interior is an improvement, as well. Most will applaud the all-white ambient LED lighting and leather instrument panel, and everyone should welcome enough cabin room for 4 adults, 5 if you must. The trunk is adequate, though not overly large. The latest version of Lexus’s Remote Touch controller is more user-friendly than any of the German controller systems, too.
And on and on and on. Of course this Lexus is loaded, though you can spend much more if you start ticking the options boxes. Take the Technology Package, which for $12,500 gets you a heated wood steering wheel, heated rear seats, a heads-up display, a back-up camera, LED headlamps, radar cruise control, a blind spot monitor, the Nightview system for seeing in the dark and more. This package, along with freight and dealer prep, turns a $64,500 car into an $80,000 one in a blink.
Lexus argues back that the base price is a “remarkable $12,000 less” than the base price of the old GS hybrid and there’s a point there. The most important point of all, though, is this: The GS Hybrid is the world’s best buy in a premium hybrid sedan.
It may not be the pure performance car Lexus would have you believe, but it’s impressive nonetheless.
The Laguna Seca Raceway is not a road circuit for the faint of heart with its famed corkscrew, the elevation changes, the wicked hairpin leading to the long straightaway in front of the pits.
That explains why Lexus – Toyota’s luxury brand – has it for the day. The 5th Estate is here to bear witness to the performance bona fides of the thoroughly reinvented GS 450h hybrid “performance sedan.” The Lexus clan wants to bang into our heads that the GS hybrid is a race-ready road warrior the likes of BMW’s M5 and Mercedes’ E63 AG.
globe rating:
8.5/10
Sandy Di Felice of Lexus public relations in fact points out that the “GS 450h entered and won – twice – at Targa Newfoundland. And the GS was the very first vehicle to cross that finish line in EV Mode.” She is correct. The GS hybrid has been a winner at Targa Newfoundland, which in human terms is akin to winning the Whistler Triathlon.8.5/10
But just because the GS hybrid can ferry its driver and passenger through, what, 10 days of living hell at the end of Canada does not mean this car can go toe-to-toe with a the 518-horsepower monster that is the E63 ($99,500), nor is it close to being a match for the frighteningly capable M5 (560 hp, $101,500).
The 2013 GS 450h is its own work of engineering genius, however, and at $64,500 it is vastly more affordable than either German powerhouse. It is also kinder to the planet, more fuel-efficient (6.4 litres/100 km in the city, 6.2 on the highway), staggeringly more comfortable to drive day-to-day and wonderfully reliable.
What we should not do is get all carried away with this high-performance obsession. Sure, we’re up to our eyeballs in fun on 1 of North America’s most intimidating race tracks. I love this place. But you can find more suitable sedans to hot-lap the Laguna. That said, I certainly enjoyed stretching the hybrid’s legs here.
Or should I say the two sets of legs designed to work together or separately in the GS Hybrid. That’s what a parallel hybrid is: a gas power train and an electric 1 integrated by some shockingly intelligent computer controls. With a combined output of 338 hp from its 3.5-litre V-6 engine, 2 electric motors (80 hp and 200 hp) and a 288-volt battery pack, this GS has the jam to get out of its own way, though this sedan is a porky 1,901 kg. It should. The GS 450h boasts the world’s most proven hybrid system, the Lexus Hybrid Drive which of course is just like the Toyota Hybrid Drive in the Prius, only more so.
Without a doubt, there is power enough to climb the long, uphill straight on the front side of this track. The new chassis, including a more aggressively tuned suspension (struts up front with aluminum controls arms and a multi-link setup at the rear), nicely manages the corners here, too – including the nasty drop into the famed hairpin.
The standard Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) helps to smooth the bumps and manage body roll. Naturally, electronic stability control is standard, too – here it’s called the Lexus Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management system or VDIM. Truth is, the Lexus hybrid is sure and even entertaining to a point, but there is no getting around the fact that an astonishing array of systems are busily at work and when you push too hard you can almost feel the GS hybrid thinking – thinking quickly, mind you – about what do and how to do it.
Off the track and in the pits, I am thinking about the GS design, which is all-new and nice. It’s a clean look, round and well-proportioned and decorated with what Lexus calls a “spindle grille,” an assortment of lines, alloy wheels and LED daytime running lights. Lexus has widely gone for something understated and elegant and I like it.
The interior is an improvement, as well. Most will applaud the all-white ambient LED lighting and leather instrument panel, and everyone should welcome enough cabin room for 4 adults, 5 if you must. The trunk is adequate, though not overly large. The latest version of Lexus’s Remote Touch controller is more user-friendly than any of the German controller systems, too.
And on and on and on. Of course this Lexus is loaded, though you can spend much more if you start ticking the options boxes. Take the Technology Package, which for $12,500 gets you a heated wood steering wheel, heated rear seats, a heads-up display, a back-up camera, LED headlamps, radar cruise control, a blind spot monitor, the Nightview system for seeing in the dark and more. This package, along with freight and dealer prep, turns a $64,500 car into an $80,000 one in a blink.
Lexus argues back that the base price is a “remarkable $12,000 less” than the base price of the old GS hybrid and there’s a point there. The most important point of all, though, is this: The GS Hybrid is the world’s best buy in a premium hybrid sedan.
It may not be the pure performance car Lexus would have you believe, but it’s impressive nonetheless.
jcato@globeandmail.com
Tech specs
2013 Lexus GS 450h
Type: Luxury/performance sedan
Base Price: $64,650 (freight $1,995)
Engine: 3.5-litre V-6
Horsepower/torque: 286 hp/254 lb-ft
Transmission: CVT
Hybrid/electric drive: 288-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack and 2 electric motors, one rated at 180 hp, the other 200 hp
Combined hybrid output: 338 hp
Drive: Rear-wheel
Fuel economy (litres/100 km): 6.4 city/6.2 highway; premium gas
Alternatives: BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AG, Chrysler 300C SRT-8
2013 Lexus GS 450h
Type: Luxury/performance sedan
Base Price: $64,650 (freight $1,995)
Engine: 3.5-litre V-6
Horsepower/torque: 286 hp/254 lb-ft
Transmission: CVT
Hybrid/electric drive: 288-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack and 2 electric motors, one rated at 180 hp, the other 200 hp
Combined hybrid output: 338 hp
Drive: Rear-wheel
Fuel economy (litres/100 km): 6.4 city/6.2 highway; premium gas
Alternatives: BMW M5, Mercedes E63 AG, Chrysler 300C SRT-8
05-18-12, 07:28 PM
#306
Good news for 4GS fans.
We just drove an F Sport back to back with a 535i M Sport - the 535i M Sport for the very first time; previously, we had only driven the 535i standard version.
This time, we went for a very long drive too.
Myself and three friends are interested in buying either the 4GS, 535i, or A6.
We have already driven the E350 and Jaguar XF some time ago.
We have also driven the base 535i previously.
The F Sport was a surprise.
First, the good news.
Handling Champ
The F Sport is the new handling champ in this segment of the market.
The F Sport has considerably sharper steering than the M Sport. Considerably. Not just a little.
There is too much free play on the M Sport steering.
Once turned in, the terminal grip of the F Sport is also noticeably higher than the M Sport.
Ride Comfort
Furthermore, comfort-wise, the F Sport rides noticeably more comfortably than the M Sport.
The M Sport has too much bump thump from firmer springs. Constant bump thump.
The F Sport is more compliant.
Both cars are damped about the same.
Ride Quietness
Further still, the F Sport cruises more quietly than the M Sport.
The 5 Series is overall noisier than the GS on cruising - the noise doesn't just come from the tires, but all round, including the engine and wind noise.
So, the F Sport is superior to the M Sport over: steering sharpness, terminal grip, ride comfort, and cruising noise levels.
Not just a little superior, but noticeably more superior.
Now, the bad news.
Bottom End Torque
The F Sport has no bottom end squirt.
There is a lack of bottom end torque on the F Sport.
I will test my other friend Toyota Camry 3.5 V6 next time we meet to confirm.
It seems that the direct injection GS has been designed for top end torque.
The 535i 3.0 Turbo and the A6 3.0 Supercharged both have forced induction for much greater bottom end torque.
Many say that this bottom end torque is much more practical than the top end of the GS.
Two of my three friends who went along for test drive prefer the forced induction bottom end of the Germans.
Personally for me, and the other friend - we can live with the GS deficient bottom end - it's got enough torque for us.
We did say that the GS has more top end power, and that it would eventually catch up and overtake the considerably heavier A6 3.0 Supercharged AWD, however the other two friend said that was impractical.
We understand what they mean.
Engine Smoothness and Quietness
More bad news.
Once spinning, the GS engine is loud and gruff.
It is certainly not as sweet as my old previous generation 3GS 3.0.
Lexus must be very careful.
At a time when the Germans have made their engines smoother and quieter than ever, Mr Toyoda all of a sudden decides to put an engine louder than the Germans in.
Furthermore, the German engines are only 3.0 liters.
We know that as capacities rise, the total inertial reciprocating mass of the moving parts also rises - so the engine becomes coarser at larger capacities.
Here, we are comparing a naturally aspirated 3.5, against two 3.0 with forced induction.
The 535i and A6 3.0 Super both spin much more smoothly.
Surprise surprise.
We would never had expected a Lexus engine to end up like this.
However, we did test an F Sport just last week, and that example had a smoother engine than today.
In the end, we suspect the GS engine is reasonably smooth, though not super smooth.
We recommend that Lexus insulate their engines just a little more, especially because a 3.5 is not as naturally as smooth as smaller capacity 3.0 engines.
Rear Seats
There were other things we learnt from the test.
The kidney hugging GS rear seats at first seem uncomfortably, however with time, they are superbly comfortable!
The kidney hugging aspect is fine.
What gives the GS the best rear seats, is that it is the highest rear seat squab, and also the highest relative to the height of the dashboard.
The 5 Series has the lowest, and worst rear seat, with the worst rear seat visibility, trying to look over the back of the front seats, and also trying to look over the highest dashboard.
We think that BMW tried to use lower rear seats on the 5 Series to both: lower the centre of gravity, and increase the rear headroom.
Space Efficiency
The A6 "scoops-out" the forearm and elbow space into the doors.
The GS front door arm rests are flat, therefore not as space efficient.
The GS has ashtrays built-in to the arm rests of the rear doors, and this eats into lateral knee space of the rear passengers.
Conclusions
In the end, two of us four favour the German forced induction with punchy bottom end torque; they are now trying to decide between the M Sport and the A6 3.0 Supercharged.
We told them that the M Sport had the badge, but its ride was far too busy.
The A6 had higher rear seats, more space, and a much better ride than the M Sport.
Myself and the other friend favour the GS with base suspension; we can live with the bottom end torque of the GS.
And as long as we buy the GS brand new, then the 3.5 won't be too coarse.
The second F Sport we drove had a coarse engine, because we suspect it had been "flogged"...
We just drove an F Sport back to back with a 535i M Sport - the 535i M Sport for the very first time; previously, we had only driven the 535i standard version.
This time, we went for a very long drive too.
Myself and three friends are interested in buying either the 4GS, 535i, or A6.
We have already driven the E350 and Jaguar XF some time ago.
We have also driven the base 535i previously.
The F Sport was a surprise.
First, the good news.
Handling Champ
The F Sport is the new handling champ in this segment of the market.
The F Sport has considerably sharper steering than the M Sport. Considerably. Not just a little.
There is too much free play on the M Sport steering.
Once turned in, the terminal grip of the F Sport is also noticeably higher than the M Sport.
Ride Comfort
Furthermore, comfort-wise, the F Sport rides noticeably more comfortably than the M Sport.
The M Sport has too much bump thump from firmer springs. Constant bump thump.
The F Sport is more compliant.
Both cars are damped about the same.
Ride Quietness
Further still, the F Sport cruises more quietly than the M Sport.
The 5 Series is overall noisier than the GS on cruising - the noise doesn't just come from the tires, but all round, including the engine and wind noise.
So, the F Sport is superior to the M Sport over: steering sharpness, terminal grip, ride comfort, and cruising noise levels.
Not just a little superior, but noticeably more superior.
Now, the bad news.
Bottom End Torque
The F Sport has no bottom end squirt.
There is a lack of bottom end torque on the F Sport.
I will test my other friend Toyota Camry 3.5 V6 next time we meet to confirm.
It seems that the direct injection GS has been designed for top end torque.
The 535i 3.0 Turbo and the A6 3.0 Supercharged both have forced induction for much greater bottom end torque.
Many say that this bottom end torque is much more practical than the top end of the GS.
Two of my three friends who went along for test drive prefer the forced induction bottom end of the Germans.
Personally for me, and the other friend - we can live with the GS deficient bottom end - it's got enough torque for us.
We did say that the GS has more top end power, and that it would eventually catch up and overtake the considerably heavier A6 3.0 Supercharged AWD, however the other two friend said that was impractical.
We understand what they mean.
Engine Smoothness and Quietness
More bad news.
Once spinning, the GS engine is loud and gruff.
It is certainly not as sweet as my old previous generation 3GS 3.0.
Lexus must be very careful.
At a time when the Germans have made their engines smoother and quieter than ever, Mr Toyoda all of a sudden decides to put an engine louder than the Germans in.
Furthermore, the German engines are only 3.0 liters.
We know that as capacities rise, the total inertial reciprocating mass of the moving parts also rises - so the engine becomes coarser at larger capacities.
Here, we are comparing a naturally aspirated 3.5, against two 3.0 with forced induction.
The 535i and A6 3.0 Super both spin much more smoothly.
Surprise surprise.
We would never had expected a Lexus engine to end up like this.
However, we did test an F Sport just last week, and that example had a smoother engine than today.
In the end, we suspect the GS engine is reasonably smooth, though not super smooth.
We recommend that Lexus insulate their engines just a little more, especially because a 3.5 is not as naturally as smooth as smaller capacity 3.0 engines.
Rear Seats
There were other things we learnt from the test.
The kidney hugging GS rear seats at first seem uncomfortably, however with time, they are superbly comfortable!
The kidney hugging aspect is fine.
What gives the GS the best rear seats, is that it is the highest rear seat squab, and also the highest relative to the height of the dashboard.
The 5 Series has the lowest, and worst rear seat, with the worst rear seat visibility, trying to look over the back of the front seats, and also trying to look over the highest dashboard.
We think that BMW tried to use lower rear seats on the 5 Series to both: lower the centre of gravity, and increase the rear headroom.
Space Efficiency
The A6 "scoops-out" the forearm and elbow space into the doors.
The GS front door arm rests are flat, therefore not as space efficient.
The GS has ashtrays built-in to the arm rests of the rear doors, and this eats into lateral knee space of the rear passengers.
Conclusions
In the end, two of us four favour the German forced induction with punchy bottom end torque; they are now trying to decide between the M Sport and the A6 3.0 Supercharged.
We told them that the M Sport had the badge, but its ride was far too busy.
The A6 had higher rear seats, more space, and a much better ride than the M Sport.
Myself and the other friend favour the GS with base suspension; we can live with the bottom end torque of the GS.
And as long as we buy the GS brand new, then the 3.5 won't be too coarse.
The second F Sport we drove had a coarse engine, because we suspect it had been "flogged"...
Last edited by peteharvey; 05-18-12 at 07:44 PM.
05-18-12, 07:56 PM
#307
Lexus Champion
Engine Smoothness and Quietness
More bad news.
Once spinning, the GS engine is loud and gruff.
It is certainly not as sweet as my old previous generation 3GS 3.0.
Lexus must be very careful.
At a time when the Germans have made their engines smoother and quieter than ever, Mr Toyoda all of a sudden decides to put an engine louder than the Germans in.
Furthermore, the German engines are only 3.0 liters.
We know that as capacities rise, the total inertial reciprocating mass of the moving parts also rises - so the engine becomes coarser at larger capacities.
Here, we are comparing a naturally aspirated 3.5, against two 3.0 with forced induction.
The 535i and A6 3.0 Super both spin much more smoothly.
Surprise surprise.
We would never had expected a Lexus engine to end up like this.
However, we did test an F Sport just last week, and that example had a smoother engine than today.
In the end, we suspect the GS engine is reasonably smooth, though not super smooth.
We recommend that Lexus insulate their engines just a little more, especially because a 3.5 is not as naturally as smooth as smaller capacity 3.0 engines.
05-18-12, 09:27 PM
#308
Pole Position
One of my Singaporean compatriots has a simple work-around for the noisy intake of the 4GS.
He installed the air-intake from the 3GS (bought it from Sewell Lexus website) and it's a simple plug and play since the engines are identical. Now it's as quiet as the 3GS.
He installed the air-intake from the 3GS (bought it from Sewell Lexus website) and it's a simple plug and play since the engines are identical. Now it's as quiet as the 3GS.
05-19-12, 02:09 PM
#309
Mr Burns, the GS engine was aurally louder and rougher from the driver's seat, only under acceleration though.
Louder and rougher than the old 3GS, and louder and rougher than both the 535i 3.0 Turbo, and the A6 3.0 Supercharged under acceleration; only a Benz E350 with its 90 degree V6 is coarser than the 4GS, but the E350 is still quieter under acceleration than the 4GS.
Benz are coming out with an all new range of in-line sixes, in a few years.
Natnut, maybe it's a simple fix by fitting the old 3GS air intake system.
Certainly, on cruising the new 4GS's are quieter than the old 3GS.
On cruising, the 4GS is also noticeably quieter all around than the 5 Series, in all three aspects of engine, wind, and tire noise.
There is a sound of all round noise and stress from that noise in the M Sport.
It's not so much the extra loudness that causes the stress; it's the frequency or pitch of the noise in the M Sport that gives rise to that stress.
The M Sport had a super thick steering wheel rim, that only a person with big hand would appreciate; those with average or smaller sized hands may complain.
The F Sport steering is nice and light; lighter than the old 3GS.
We know that the GS350 F Sport has sharper steering, with sharper turn-in than the 535i M Sport.
We also know that the F Sport has more terminal grip than the M Sport.
The body roll was about the same.
The damping was about the same for both cars.
This is only subjective qualitative testing.
Not objective quantitative testing, because we did not use a stop watch, or a g-force lateral acceleration meter, nor a temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity gauge.
It's only subjective.
We cannot exactly work out why the M Sport doesn't turn in, or terminal grip as well as the F Sport.
It can't be because of the wheels/tires, because both were on 19".
There is a lot of bump thump on the 535i M Sport.
Maybe its the run flats?
May be it has firmer springs.
But then the body roll was about the same, as is the similar centre of gravity, and similar track width.
The damping was about the same.
Maybe the electronics in the M Sport's electric power steering?
There are other possible causes like the steering gear ratio, the steering axis and king pin angle, the camber angle, toe-in/out, or even the geometry of the suspension arms.
Working backwards, we don't know exactly why, but the F Sport does handle better than the M Sport.
The heavyweight AWD A6 is very plush in the ride, much more roll, and the most loose body control of all.
It has a massive wheelbase even longer than the 5 Series, and nearly 3 inches longer than the GS.
I'll have to check their track widths???
Having a wider foot print does help.
Btw, the A6 has the lowest seating postion of the three, so possibly the lowest centre of gravity.
The height of the C of G ratio to the track width really helps handling.
Whatever it is, despite the extra 220 pounds and the soft suspension, the A6's AWD seems to grip and grip and grip.
However, the A6's steering sharpness and initial turn-in response and speed is no match for the F Sport.
People call it steering sharpness, steering response, or turn-in, and many other terms.
All these terms basically mean the same thing.
It means how quickly the car changes direction.
Once it changes its direction, is the terminal grip.
Then we describe how it breaks away from its maximum terminal grip; either suddenly and uncontrollably as in a tail snap, or slowly with control.
The F Sport presently has the sharpest steering in this size of motor car.
Amazing when you remember that the F Sport rides more comfortably and more quietly than the M Sport too.
When we read yesterday's local newspaper journo articles saying that the GS chassis is not quite up there with Benz and Beamer, most of those journalists aren't really specialised in motor vehicle dynamics, and just don't know what they are talking about.
Btw, the IS250 has the sharpest steering in the compact class too; the new 3 Series is less sharp than the smaller old model.
The base IS achieves its sharpness by using firmer springs than the other base model competitors, albeit at a detriment to its own ride...
Louder and rougher than the old 3GS, and louder and rougher than both the 535i 3.0 Turbo, and the A6 3.0 Supercharged under acceleration; only a Benz E350 with its 90 degree V6 is coarser than the 4GS, but the E350 is still quieter under acceleration than the 4GS.
Benz are coming out with an all new range of in-line sixes, in a few years.
Natnut, maybe it's a simple fix by fitting the old 3GS air intake system.
Certainly, on cruising the new 4GS's are quieter than the old 3GS.
On cruising, the 4GS is also noticeably quieter all around than the 5 Series, in all three aspects of engine, wind, and tire noise.
There is a sound of all round noise and stress from that noise in the M Sport.
It's not so much the extra loudness that causes the stress; it's the frequency or pitch of the noise in the M Sport that gives rise to that stress.
The M Sport had a super thick steering wheel rim, that only a person with big hand would appreciate; those with average or smaller sized hands may complain.
The F Sport steering is nice and light; lighter than the old 3GS.
We know that the GS350 F Sport has sharper steering, with sharper turn-in than the 535i M Sport.
We also know that the F Sport has more terminal grip than the M Sport.
The body roll was about the same.
The damping was about the same for both cars.
This is only subjective qualitative testing.
Not objective quantitative testing, because we did not use a stop watch, or a g-force lateral acceleration meter, nor a temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity gauge.
It's only subjective.
We cannot exactly work out why the M Sport doesn't turn in, or terminal grip as well as the F Sport.
It can't be because of the wheels/tires, because both were on 19".
There is a lot of bump thump on the 535i M Sport.
Maybe its the run flats?
May be it has firmer springs.
But then the body roll was about the same, as is the similar centre of gravity, and similar track width.
The damping was about the same.
Maybe the electronics in the M Sport's electric power steering?
There are other possible causes like the steering gear ratio, the steering axis and king pin angle, the camber angle, toe-in/out, or even the geometry of the suspension arms.
Working backwards, we don't know exactly why, but the F Sport does handle better than the M Sport.
The heavyweight AWD A6 is very plush in the ride, much more roll, and the most loose body control of all.
It has a massive wheelbase even longer than the 5 Series, and nearly 3 inches longer than the GS.
I'll have to check their track widths???
Having a wider foot print does help.
Btw, the A6 has the lowest seating postion of the three, so possibly the lowest centre of gravity.
The height of the C of G ratio to the track width really helps handling.
Whatever it is, despite the extra 220 pounds and the soft suspension, the A6's AWD seems to grip and grip and grip.
However, the A6's steering sharpness and initial turn-in response and speed is no match for the F Sport.
People call it steering sharpness, steering response, or turn-in, and many other terms.
All these terms basically mean the same thing.
It means how quickly the car changes direction.
Once it changes its direction, is the terminal grip.
Then we describe how it breaks away from its maximum terminal grip; either suddenly and uncontrollably as in a tail snap, or slowly with control.
The F Sport presently has the sharpest steering in this size of motor car.
Amazing when you remember that the F Sport rides more comfortably and more quietly than the M Sport too.
When we read yesterday's local newspaper journo articles saying that the GS chassis is not quite up there with Benz and Beamer, most of those journalists aren't really specialised in motor vehicle dynamics, and just don't know what they are talking about.
Btw, the IS250 has the sharpest steering in the compact class too; the new 3 Series is less sharp than the smaller old model.
The base IS achieves its sharpness by using firmer springs than the other base model competitors, albeit at a detriment to its own ride...
Last edited by peteharvey; 05-19-12 at 02:49 PM.
05-21-12, 05:49 AM
#310
Favorable review in the Detroit News, with plenty of opposing viewpoints in the comments...
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...e-Mustang-dust
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...e-Mustang-dust
05-21-12, 08:23 AM
#311
wow some major xenophobia being expressed in those comments.
at least its good to know no one is forgetting WWII..........
some guy actually railed against "teachers who drive foreign cars and expect decent pay"........damn those teachers driving prius'! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!
at least its good to know no one is forgetting WWII..........
some guy actually railed against "teachers who drive foreign cars and expect decent pay"........damn those teachers driving prius'! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!
05-21-12, 10:41 AM
#312
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow some major xenophobia being expressed in those comments.
at least its good to know no one is forgetting WWII..........
some guy actually railed against "teachers who drive foreign cars and expect decent pay"........damn those teachers driving prius'! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!
at least its good to know no one is forgetting WWII..........
some guy actually railed against "teachers who drive foreign cars and expect decent pay"........damn those teachers driving prius'! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!
05-23-12, 09:36 PM
#313
Pole Position
"Perfect Suspension"
I like how this Australian reviewer describes the new GS's suspension as "perfect".
Full Article :
http://performancedrive.com.au/2012-...luxury-review/
I like how this Australian reviewer describes the new GS's suspension as "perfect".
There’s no other word to describe the suspension, it’s perfect. In Sport + it manages to provide both a supple and compliant ride, however, tackle some bends and dippers with speed and the rigid chassis and dampers will take everything in their stride.
During our test drive on our favourite route there is a number of bumps that we know can unsettle cars to a degree. Some cars almost bottom out, while others handle them well but let you know about it with a jarring jolt through your entire body – a bit like collapsing straight into a lounge. And some cars, not many, but some catch the bumps like a wicket keeper catching a sky ball.
The 2012 Lexus GS 350 in Sport + mode is one of those rare cars. It’s like a sponge, it will absorb everything without making a big deal about it.
There’s minimal body roll too, and the platform remains direct and confident. In our opinion, the suspension is right up there with the best of them, including the BMW 5 Series with the M Sport package.
During our test drive on our favourite route there is a number of bumps that we know can unsettle cars to a degree. Some cars almost bottom out, while others handle them well but let you know about it with a jarring jolt through your entire body – a bit like collapsing straight into a lounge. And some cars, not many, but some catch the bumps like a wicket keeper catching a sky ball.
The 2012 Lexus GS 350 in Sport + mode is one of those rare cars. It’s like a sponge, it will absorb everything without making a big deal about it.
There’s minimal body roll too, and the platform remains direct and confident. In our opinion, the suspension is right up there with the best of them, including the BMW 5 Series with the M Sport package.
http://performancedrive.com.au/2012-...luxury-review/
05-24-12, 01:29 PM
#314
Have a watch and read here:
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...403-1waey.html
The Australian video at 52 seconds says:
"it certainly isn't as involving as a 5 Series".
In the last paragraph of the same article, it says:
"...this latest version is much better to drive, although it still has some way to go to rival the 5-Series for driver enjoyment".
I think it's nonsense, but there is still quite a lot of this going around in the media.
Also, this was a single test drive, rather than a more accurate back to back comparison...
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...403-1waey.html
The Australian video at 52 seconds says:
"it certainly isn't as involving as a 5 Series".
In the last paragraph of the same article, it says:
"...this latest version is much better to drive, although it still has some way to go to rival the 5-Series for driver enjoyment".
I think it's nonsense, but there is still quite a lot of this going around in the media.
Also, this was a single test drive, rather than a more accurate back to back comparison...
06-07-12, 03:06 PM
#315
Here's an overseas small engine capacity mid-sized 4-way luxury comparison:
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...602-1zo5b.html
The 4GS is said to be noticeably "tighter" and more "snug" than the others, but it was commended for its most comfortable and supportive rear seats - thanks to the high rear squab IMO. I agree.
The 4GS engine was said to be "raucous".
I agree, but what they forgot to mention is that on cruising, the 4GS is the quietest of the lot!
In a world of turbos, the naturally aspirated is starting to lose out on bottom end torque.
The handling didn't match the three Germans, but it was an unfair comparison because both the Benz and Audi had optional sports suspension.
However, even on standard suspension, all three Germans have more bump thump than the 4GS, a sign of firmer springs, hence less weight transfer to the outside wheels.
The 4GS was commended for having the most "luxurious" ride.
If the 4GS can make a few improvements like better styling, improved rear room, more bottom end torque, and a quieter engine, then Lexus will have total control of the mid-size market...
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...602-1zo5b.html
The 4GS is said to be noticeably "tighter" and more "snug" than the others, but it was commended for its most comfortable and supportive rear seats - thanks to the high rear squab IMO. I agree.
The 4GS engine was said to be "raucous".
I agree, but what they forgot to mention is that on cruising, the 4GS is the quietest of the lot!
In a world of turbos, the naturally aspirated is starting to lose out on bottom end torque.
The handling didn't match the three Germans, but it was an unfair comparison because both the Benz and Audi had optional sports suspension.
However, even on standard suspension, all three Germans have more bump thump than the 4GS, a sign of firmer springs, hence less weight transfer to the outside wheels.
The 4GS was commended for having the most "luxurious" ride.
If the 4GS can make a few improvements like better styling, improved rear room, more bottom end torque, and a quieter engine, then Lexus will have total control of the mid-size market...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-07-12 at 03:19 PM.