Official GS-F discussion
08-26-11, 12:03 PM
#167
You can find V10 in $30k Ford and Dodge trucks too, and the V10 in the Viper is not much different then the truck engine that it was based on, that's why it sounds and rev like a truck and is in a $60k sports car. The V10 in the M5/M6 is produced in much higher quantity then say the V10 in the LFA. The V10 used in the VAG family is used in a bunch of cars, S6, S8, RS6, R8, Gallardo...........so again, quantity produced is high.If Lexus was doing this 5~10 years ago, they could follow the VAG formula and decontent the V10 from the LFA and mass produces it to use in the GS-F/LS-F/SC-F. But in today's climate where MPG and emission matters, that is highly unlikely. All new generation M5/M6/S6/S8 are all losing their V10 for a boosted V8. Most cars are losing 2 cylinders now a days, don't think Lexus will go against the trend.
If they really want to commit to building a reputation for their F cars, they should take a longer term view and not worry too much about immediate profits or selling a lot of them, but try making a mark with it's first attempt first , either price it a little higher and not worry about selling many of them,
That might be what they are planning to do, $80k GS-F.
Last edited by BNR34; 08-26-11 at 12:11 PM.
08-26-11, 12:16 PM
#168
Super Moderator
Not talking about the exact same v10 in the LFA at all^^^, but try something like M5/M6 in higher volumes, yes they can even put it to even more use for a SC-F and even a version for the next LS600 .
But no , a 465 hp GS-F is not a real competitor for the M and AMG, it should NOT wear the F badge , especially for a GS-F that will not even come out for likely another 2 years if they build one, the competition are not standing still with today's specs. you know ...
to me they should either be in and be competitive ,or not at all...
But no , a 465 hp GS-F is not a real competitor for the M and AMG, it should NOT wear the F badge , especially for a GS-F that will not even come out for likely another 2 years if they build one, the competition are not standing still with today's specs. you know ...
to me they should either be in and be competitive ,or not at all...
08-26-11, 12:33 PM
#169
just out of curiosity, where did that 200lb figure come from? is that the weight difference toyota claims in their upcoming new generation of camry?
i looked up toyota.com. current camry xle (3680) vs hybrid (3373), difference is 300lb. looking at lexus.com, gs350 (3704) vs gs450h (4134), difference goes up to 430lb.
it seems like you are trying to quote the optimistic numbers to reduce the effect. even with current generation the hybrid system on gs is already 130lb heavier than that in camry
if your 220lb figure is on the new camry, i will only imagine gsh to have the similar kind of hybrid system, which means gsh will be 350lb heavier. and then if they have to increase the capacity or so, it will make it even heavier.
of course, if lexus has new technology and other details bringing down that weight that will be great. and that's pretty much what i am hoping before before i think hybrid is a good viable option for power
i looked up toyota.com. current camry xle (3680) vs hybrid (3373), difference is 300lb. looking at lexus.com, gs350 (3704) vs gs450h (4134), difference goes up to 430lb.
it seems like you are trying to quote the optimistic numbers to reduce the effect. even with current generation the hybrid system on gs is already 130lb heavier than that in camry
if your 220lb figure is on the new camry, i will only imagine gsh to have the similar kind of hybrid system, which means gsh will be 350lb heavier. and then if they have to increase the capacity or so, it will make it even heavier.
of course, if lexus has new technology and other details bringing down that weight that will be great. and that's pretty much what i am hoping before before i think hybrid is a good viable option for power
08-26-11, 12:36 PM
#170
Super Moderator
Btw, S600 is a 5.5 litre twin turbo V12 selling for $130k almost fully loaded , the last time I checked, unless they changed things, but it has been for many years ...
08-26-11, 01:35 PM
#173
Are V10's really THAT expensive to make ? We've had V10 M5/M6 for $100k or less, S8 is not that much more with V10 .
Some seem to be talking about the V10 like it's sacred because it's in the LFA , other manufacturers have put twin turbo V12's in their cars and they are bigger and even more luxuriously equipped and still can sell them at low $100k range ... Will a turbo v8 be that much cheaper?
I would rather see them build a more expensive GS-F and make a splash than a budget one that is underpowered and not really competitive, or at best, does not stand out.
If they really want to commit to building a reputation for their F cars, they should take a longer term view and not worry too much about immediate profits or selling a lot of them, but try making a mark with it's first attempt first , either price it a little higher and not worry about selling many of them, or price it relatively low but still make it stand out among competitors and not worry about profits , just like how they probably underprice their first LS500 when the Lexus brand were first introduce ...
Some seem to be talking about the V10 like it's sacred because it's in the LFA , other manufacturers have put twin turbo V12's in their cars and they are bigger and even more luxuriously equipped and still can sell them at low $100k range ... Will a turbo v8 be that much cheaper?
I would rather see them build a more expensive GS-F and make a splash than a budget one that is underpowered and not really competitive, or at best, does not stand out.
If they really want to commit to building a reputation for their F cars, they should take a longer term view and not worry too much about immediate profits or selling a lot of them, but try making a mark with it's first attempt first , either price it a little higher and not worry about selling many of them, or price it relatively low but still make it stand out among competitors and not worry about profits , just like how they probably underprice their first LS500 when the Lexus brand were first introduce ...
look at it for yourself. camry LE (3307), camry hybrid (3680). i know hybrid comes with extra, that why i even gave you the camry xle for the kick, but that's still at 3370lb. good 300lb difference. i don't see anything close to 200
08-26-11, 02:55 PM
#174
But no , a 465 hp GS-F is not a real competitor for the M and AMG, it should NOT wear the F badge , especially for a GS-F that will not even come out for likely another 2 years if they build one, the competition are not standing still with today's specs. you know ...
to me they should either be in and be competitive ,or not at all...
to me they should either be in and be competitive ,or not at all...
08-26-11, 03:03 PM
#175
and great post too. long term view is needed, nothing about short term profit if they want to open up this small segment. either do it right, or don't do it at all imho. i said it before and i will say it again, if they build a 450hp gs and call it gsf, which comes out a yr from now, for 80k. i can't say for sure how well the car will sell, but i can only say real buyers in the m5 and e63, they probably won't give this car much of a look
http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
look at it for yourself. camry LE (3307), camry hybrid (3680). i know hybrid comes with extra, that why i even gave you the camry xle for the kick, but that's still at 3370lb. good 300lb difference. i don't see anything close to 200
http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
look at it for yourself. camry LE (3307), camry hybrid (3680). i know hybrid comes with extra, that why i even gave you the camry xle for the kick, but that's still at 3370lb. good 300lb difference. i don't see anything close to 200
here is the correct info... Camry Hybrid lost 220lbs this time around (60-70lbs more than regular Camry).
Camry Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry Hybrid Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry 4cly LE: 3,190lbs
Camry Hybrid LE: 3,417 (+227lbs but more equipment)
Camry 4cly XLE: 3,245
Camry Hybrid XLE: 3,441 (+196 lbs)
Camry V6 XLE: 3,395
So difference is around 210lbs. V6 gets more equipment though so cant be compared as easily.
I dont think performance system made for GS-F would add more than 250lbs because toyota would spend more money on lighter batteries which would save extra 70lbs compared to Camry for instance. And if they did add more than 250lbs, it wouldnt be batteries but rather bigger motors which then has its payout in more hp.
For 2012 GSh, German reports said it lost around 150lbs when petrol engine stayed the same due to more standard equipment. Loss of 150lbs would make GS450h 170lbs heavier than current V8.
And I dont think realistically that 250lbs is an issue.... at all. As I mentioned before, bigger issue is getting track performance out of it that is consistent.
p.s. looking at its old Camry numbers, crazy how much weight it lost :-).
08-26-11, 03:10 PM
#176
Those are specs for old Camry :-).
here is the correct info... Camry Hybrid lost 220lbs this time around (60-70lbs more than regular Camry).
Camry Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry Hybrid Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry 4cly LE: 3,190lbs
Camry Hybrid LE: 3,417 (+227lbs but more equipment)
Camry 4cly XLE: 3,245
Camry Hybrid XLE: 3,441 (+196 lbs)
Camry V6 XLE: 3,395
So difference is around 210lbs. V6 gets more equipment though so cant be compared as easily.
I dont think performance system made for GS-F would add more than 250lbs because toyota would spend more money on lighter batteries which would save extra 70lbs compared to Camry for instance. And if they did add more than 250lbs, it wouldnt be batteries but rather bigger motors which then has its payout in more hp.
For 2012 GSh, German reports said it lost around 150lbs when petrol engine stayed the same due to more standard equipment. Loss of 150lbs would make GS450h 170lbs heavier than current V8.
And I dont think realistically that 250lbs is an issue.... at all. As I mentioned before, bigger issue is getting track performance out of it that is consistent.
p.s. looking at its old Camry numbers, crazy how much weight it lost :-).
here is the correct info... Camry Hybrid lost 220lbs this time around (60-70lbs more than regular Camry).
Camry Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry Hybrid Specs
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...specs.download
Camry 4cly LE: 3,190lbs
Camry Hybrid LE: 3,417 (+227lbs but more equipment)
Camry 4cly XLE: 3,245
Camry Hybrid XLE: 3,441 (+196 lbs)
Camry V6 XLE: 3,395
So difference is around 210lbs. V6 gets more equipment though so cant be compared as easily.
I dont think performance system made for GS-F would add more than 250lbs because toyota would spend more money on lighter batteries which would save extra 70lbs compared to Camry for instance. And if they did add more than 250lbs, it wouldnt be batteries but rather bigger motors which then has its payout in more hp.
For 2012 GSh, German reports said it lost around 150lbs when petrol engine stayed the same due to more standard equipment. Loss of 150lbs would make GS450h 170lbs heavier than current V8.
And I dont think realistically that 250lbs is an issue.... at all. As I mentioned before, bigger issue is getting track performance out of it that is consistent.
p.s. looking at its old Camry numbers, crazy how much weight it lost :-).
but still, the current gsh hybrid system is 130lb heavier than the difference on camry, so i will say 40lb with the new system is optimistic. not to mention if they want more juice for the gsf, then they need bigger battery (likely), which is more weight
of course it's all just math, but i don't think we can say it's non-issue. if we think 400lb is a big difference between gs and f10, 250 (or i think more like 300) is not small either. at least i think that's heavier than say turbo or just larger v8
08-26-11, 05:27 PM
#177
see that's why i asked if it's on the new camry or current one @_@
but still, the current gsh hybrid system is 130lb heavier than the difference on camry, so i will say 40lb with the new system is optimistic. not to mention if they want more juice for the gsf, then they need bigger battery (likely), which is more weight
of course it's all just math, but i don't think we can say it's non-issue. if we think 400lb is a big difference between gs and f10, 250 (or i think more like 300) is not small either. at least i think that's heavier than say turbo or just larger v8
but still, the current gsh hybrid system is 130lb heavier than the difference on camry, so i will say 40lb with the new system is optimistic. not to mention if they want more juice for the gsf, then they need bigger battery (likely), which is more weight
of course it's all just math, but i don't think we can say it's non-issue. if we think 400lb is a big difference between gs and f10, 250 (or i think more like 300) is not small either. at least i think that's heavier than say turbo or just larger v8
Sure 250lbs is a LOT, but here it adds power... it is not dead weight. Old GS450h was considerably faster car over GS350 despite weighting some 350-400lbs more. With new GSh being said to be 150lbs lighter, difference will be down to Camry levels (consider GS450h has a lot more equipment than base GS350).
So difference in speed between 350 and 450h in 2012 should be even more obvious. And 150lbs less will help with handling as well.
08-26-11, 05:46 PM
#178
GS-F battery would be lion, so it would be "free" to add more capacity as it would be lighter per kw. Lion would be required since it can discharge more power, more quickly (as well as recharge)... which is not that important to regular GS450h but definetly will be for GS.F.
Sure 250lbs is a LOT, but here it adds power... it is not dead weight. Old GS450h was considerably faster car over GS350 despite weighting some 350-400lbs more. With new GSh being said to be 150lbs lighter, difference will be down to Camry levels (consider GS450h has a lot more equipment than base GS350).
So difference in speed between 350 and 450h in 2012 should be even more obvious. And 150lbs less will help with handling as well.
Sure 250lbs is a LOT, but here it adds power... it is not dead weight. Old GS450h was considerably faster car over GS350 despite weighting some 350-400lbs more. With new GSh being said to be 150lbs lighter, difference will be down to Camry levels (consider GS450h has a lot more equipment than base GS350).
So difference in speed between 350 and 450h in 2012 should be even more obvious. And 150lbs less will help with handling as well.
That is really no faster than most of the tests on the GS350. Maybe a tenth or two, but I've actually seen magazine tests on the 350 that had the 1/4 mile in 13.9 at 103, but most were around 14.0 at 101, give or take a tenth.
08-26-11, 06:50 PM
#179
Guest
Posts: n/a
From Car & Driver in 2008 on the GS 450h.."but for all that it sprinted to 60 mph in 5.5 seconds and covered the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 103 mph."
That is really no faster than most of the tests on the GS350. Maybe a tenth or two, but I've actually seen magazine tests on the 350 that had the 1/4 mile in 13.9 at 103, but most were around 14.0 at 101, give or take a tenth.
That is really no faster than most of the tests on the GS350. Maybe a tenth or two, but I've actually seen magazine tests on the 350 that had the 1/4 mile in 13.9 at 103, but most were around 14.0 at 101, give or take a tenth.
I've driven the GS 350, 450h, 460 on the road and on the track and the 450h is clearly faster than a 350 especially at highway speeds.
08-26-11, 06:58 PM
#180
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is my new thoughts on the matter. The IS F was a skunkworks project and the chief engineer did not get his own engine. He used the "Delorean" method of stuffing the biggest engine Lexus had at the time, the 5.0 from the LS 600h L and putting it in the IS.
Again this was NOT a planned product. It is why the IS F was initially nose heavy, the front overhang is 2 inches longer and the hood is bigger, to fit an engine it was not initially meant for.
Seeing the success of the IS F shows there is a market for Lexus super sedans. With Lexus having its own team now under Mr. Toyoda, I imagine the program got more money and more approval, especially after the rave reviews of the LFA and the "halo" they want to pass down through the brand.
So in other words, the GS F will be the first planned Lexus F sedan and the 2nd planned product behind the LFA. Thus I feel it will get some sort of all new engine and who news, debut either Forced induction or a higher hp hybrid.
Which means as much as I love the IS F and may still own one, the GS F will be a different take on the matter as both cars were born differently.
