Official GS-F discussion
09-05-13, 06:17 PM
#497
the car might have less hp than an e63 or m5, but it won't cost as much, so what's the big deal?
its a big risk for lexus to develop a 100k GS, chances are it won't sell as much, so they are building something in between the 50k and 100k midsize sedan.
nothing wrong with that.
its a big risk for lexus to develop a 100k GS, chances are it won't sell as much, so they are building something in between the 50k and 100k midsize sedan.
nothing wrong with that.
09-05-13, 07:45 PM
#498
The LFA proved that no matter what Lexus did, people will tear it apart. The LFA was a hand made 500 built sports car that has been hailed as one of the best supercars of all time. It is considered a favorite by some of the harshest critics and the internetz still bashes it for things like price and it doesn't have 800hp.
So really if these same people are going to bash a car like the LFA, the GS F doesn't stand a chance.
I completely agree with the badge/prestige thing and bragging rights. However Lexus is taking steps in the right direction.
Hell look at the GS F-sport. Here it is the best handling in class, a drivers car, and people are super quiet about it. Now its about rear seat room and trunk hinges.
So really if these same people are going to bash a car like the LFA, the GS F doesn't stand a chance.
I completely agree with the badge/prestige thing and bragging rights. However Lexus is taking steps in the right direction.
Hell look at the GS F-sport. Here it is the best handling in class, a drivers car, and people are super quiet about it. Now its about rear seat room and trunk hinges.
09-05-13, 08:21 PM
#499
Sure peak HP ratings sell and are a buying point. We should be happy that after 20 years, a proper GS F is coming. Some of us remember the 225hp GS 300 and its humble beginings and gasp, some of us have owned the GS for quite sometimes.
Its utterly amazing to me there are so many people bashing the car based on their views off peak horsepower ratings only.[/QUOTE]
Haters wanna hate, lovers wanna love, I dont even want, none of the above, I want to....cant finish the line.
I am certainly not as well versed in the history of Lexus as you, but I am in agreement with you here BP. If the HP numbers are all that matter, then the GS F may not be for you, go get a German ride. Pay the premium as well, be my my guest, that leaves one more GSF for me!. Lexus will deliver the total package/perfect balance when they release the GSF...power, handling and luxury, and hopefully I will be there to enjoy it with you BP.
We live in the states, and have speed limits and laws (and traffic here in Ca) that make me much less concerned with owning a 500+HP car. We dont have an Autobahn!! I understand the need for comparisons to the other sedans, but Lexus is not gonna give it to you right away! The "F" brand is in it's infancy so to speak, give it some time, enjoy the ride, and follow it along as it grows.
09-05-13, 09:44 PM
#500
The LFA proved that no matter what Lexus did, people will tear it apart. The LFA was a hand made 500 built sports car that has been hailed as one of the best supercars of all time. It is considered a favorite by some of the harshest critics and the internetz still bashes it for things like price and it doesn't have 800hp.
So really if these same people are going to bash a car like the LFA, the GS F doesn't stand a chance.
I completely agree with the badge/prestige thing and bragging rights. However Lexus is taking steps in the right direction.
Hell look at the GS F-sport. Here it is the best handling in class, a drivers car, and people are super quiet about it. Now its about rear seat room and trunk hinges.
So really if these same people are going to bash a car like the LFA, the GS F doesn't stand a chance.
I completely agree with the badge/prestige thing and bragging rights. However Lexus is taking steps in the right direction.
Hell look at the GS F-sport. Here it is the best handling in class, a drivers car, and people are super quiet about it. Now its about rear seat room and trunk hinges.
for the longest time, audi also bare the "follower" title behind bmw and mb, they just say audi was trying to copy bmw and mb. well guess what, most people won't deny that audi is leading in quite a few areas starting with styling.
things can change, and just need to work hard in the right direction. i actually don't doubt that the gsf will take critique regardless and i am sure you are bracing for the same. but with that in mind, isn't it true that lexus should be even more careful?
it could be all wishful thinking for now and i have a very good idea what lexus is doing. but shouldn't stop voicing out what should have been done, rather than caving in and "agree" with the compromise.
09-05-13, 10:10 PM
#501
Pole Position
I'll just straight out say this : I think the GS-F will have > 600hp.
Reason? When it comes to full fledged F-Cars, Lexus has never done things by halves : The IS-F with more power and torque than the segment leading M3. The LFA hypercar. See my point? The RC-F almost confirmed to have close to 460hp.
If Lexus follows this pattern, the GS-F will be a full fledged M5/E63/RS6/XFR challenger in terms of specs with no qualifications or excuses required.
I get the feeling that the TMG-LS is just Toyota/Lexus' way of sending out subtle signals as to what to expect from the future GS-F/LF-LC halo cars.
Reason? When it comes to full fledged F-Cars, Lexus has never done things by halves : The IS-F with more power and torque than the segment leading M3. The LFA hypercar. See my point? The RC-F almost confirmed to have close to 460hp.
If Lexus follows this pattern, the GS-F will be a full fledged M5/E63/RS6/XFR challenger in terms of specs with no qualifications or excuses required.
I get the feeling that the TMG-LS is just Toyota/Lexus' way of sending out subtle signals as to what to expect from the future GS-F/LF-LC halo cars.
09-06-13, 12:21 PM
#502
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just because the ISF/RCF is a M3/M4 competitor does NOT mean the GSF is automatically a M5/RS6/E AMG competitor. a lot of people here mistakenly assume lexus want to, or have to, compete with the germans in every segment. imo this is not the case. history tells us that lexus does things THEIR way. so a car like the RCF makes sense. it takes over the LFA as the performance car of the line up. the GSF will fit in as sort of a sedan version of the RCF offering more space and luxury.
developing a 600 hp twin turbo GSF? makes little sense. sure it goes toe to toe with the germans, but does lexus have to? what have they to gain? lexus has already made the LFA. they've shown what they can do. the LFA performance also trickles down to the RCF. having a super sedan is simply not required. lexus is better off competing in other segments. for instance, we need to see a CT200t before we see a 600 hp GSF.
developing a 600 hp twin turbo GSF? makes little sense. sure it goes toe to toe with the germans, but does lexus have to? what have they to gain? lexus has already made the LFA. they've shown what they can do. the LFA performance also trickles down to the RCF. having a super sedan is simply not required. lexus is better off competing in other segments. for instance, we need to see a CT200t before we see a 600 hp GSF.
09-06-13, 12:47 PM
#503
Forced induction isn't voodoo magic or anything new. I don't see why it's "crazy" to expect Lexus to keep up with the times. The original LS400 more than did so despite being their very first attempt to enter a new market. It's not like every new auto maker has to start from ground zero with a car barely matching the original 1984 Benz just because they have no history. Lexus certainly has the resource and technologies to go head to head with the GS-F's direct rivals, as proven by the TMG prototype. They just need to think it through where they want the F to be.
Of course Toyota have the resource and technologies, they can build a $2 millions LaFerrari competitor if they want to. The hard part is getting enough people to buy it with a Lexus badge.
Look at the LFA, they didn't exactly flew off the shelf. How many untitled car is still sitting in dealer's showroom?
09-06-13, 12:54 PM
#504
but honestly now. i am just as doubtful as the next guy about lexus having 500+hp on the gsf. and to certain extend i can see about "it takes time". but doesn't mean it's a good strategy and risk trashing the hard-built F badge?
see, people keep saying about how the s6/s7 stacks against the m5 and e63. sure yeah performance wise it does seem like those cars are awesome. however when it comes to badging, prestige status, and presence, what happens? i don't think they stack that well against the m5 and e63. not like what an rs6/rs7 would be. i am just afraid that will happen to lexus as well, and we know people get harsher on lexus (compared to audi) overall.
see, people keep saying about how the s6/s7 stacks against the m5 and e63. sure yeah performance wise it does seem like those cars are awesome. however when it comes to badging, prestige status, and presence, what happens? i don't think they stack that well against the m5 and e63. not like what an rs6/rs7 would be. i am just afraid that will happen to lexus as well, and we know people get harsher on lexus (compared to audi) overall.
09-06-13, 12:59 PM
#505
Yup... ydooby needs to read up on history....
AMG really came around in 1993 or so with the C36 I believe..which became the C43..they only had ONE MODEL. Then Benz added the AMG "SPORT" package to their cars. Sound familiar?
The 2nd model was the 1999 E55 which made 349hp. Well the Jag XJR made 370 and the M5 394. The E55 wasn't clowned for not being a proper super sedan, it was welcomed.
Since that time they expanded AMG greatly but look, it took 2 decades to do so.
Lexus moves slow, we know this, in comparison to the Germans. While the GS F might be down on power, it just may offer the best balance as those 550hp cars haven't exactly gotten rave mind blowing reviews.
The LFA was not about peak power, it was also down compared to many supercars and it got rave reviews for being one of the best drives of all time.
AMG really came around in 1993 or so with the C36 I believe..which became the C43..they only had ONE MODEL. Then Benz added the AMG "SPORT" package to their cars. Sound familiar?
The 2nd model was the 1999 E55 which made 349hp. Well the Jag XJR made 370 and the M5 394. The E55 wasn't clowned for not being a proper super sedan, it was welcomed.
Since that time they expanded AMG greatly but look, it took 2 decades to do so.
Lexus moves slow, we know this, in comparison to the Germans. While the GS F might be down on power, it just may offer the best balance as those 550hp cars haven't exactly gotten rave mind blowing reviews.
The LFA was not about peak power, it was also down compared to many supercars and it got rave reviews for being one of the best drives of all time.
The LFA is pattern after Ferrari, is not about absolute speed, is all about driving sensation.
09-06-13, 01:04 PM
#506
just because the ISF/RCF is a M3/M4 competitor does NOT mean the GSF is automatically a M5/RS6/E AMG competitor. a lot of people here mistakenly assume lexus want to, or have to, compete with the germans in every segment. imo this is not the case. history tells us that lexus does things THEIR way. so a car like the RCF makes sense. it takes over the LFA as the performance car of the line up. the GSF will fit in as sort of a sedan version of the RCF offering more space and luxury.
developing a 600 hp twin turbo GSF? makes little sense. sure it goes toe to toe with the germans, but does lexus have to? what have they to gain? lexus has already made the LFA. they've shown what they can do. the LFA performance also trickles down to the RCF. having a super sedan is simply not required. lexus is better off competing in other segments. for instance, we need to see a CT200t before we see a 600 hp GSF.
developing a 600 hp twin turbo GSF? makes little sense. sure it goes toe to toe with the germans, but does lexus have to? what have they to gain? lexus has already made the LFA. they've shown what they can do. the LFA performance also trickles down to the RCF. having a super sedan is simply not required. lexus is better off competing in other segments. for instance, we need to see a CT200t before we see a 600 hp GSF.
Every company have their place in the world for their own reason.
09-06-13, 01:53 PM
#508
i have said it many times and i will say it again. i am not against the idea of a 460hp gs. for crying out loud since day ONE i have been saying that the gs NEEDS a v8. absolutely zero problem on that. but with the gsf badge? when it's clear how isf and rcf (and thus the f badge) is positioned to be m and amg fighter? and now the new reasoning that "lexus is doing their own thing and no need to compete with bmw and mb"? i guess it's a lot to figure out first isn't it?
lfa proved a huge point for lexus, no doubt. however anyone who is remotely trying to compare the lfa market to that of isf, rcf, gsf (vs m3/4/5 and c63/e63) really has little idea on how these markets work. one is supercar where it's about showcasing different aspects of technology (whether people like it or not is another story), one is a huge mass production by comparison where audience are mostly about status rather than driving.
so again, i have no problem with a v8 gs, i was probably one of the first few to cry and whine for one. but with the f badge? maybe we should go back and try to figure out what lexus is trying to define f as. simply something that's more sporty and more "fiji speedway" as some start to perceive here? or actually something to fight against m and amg (demonstrated by isf and rcf) to boost brand recognition in sport (which btw is what lexus has been focusing)?
09-06-13, 01:55 PM
#509
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i didn't say it's just as easy, but at the same time is that the excuse now?
i have said it many times and i will say it again. i am not against the idea of a 460hp gs. for crying out loud since day ONE i have been saying that the gs NEEDS a v8. absolutely zero problem on that. but with the gsf badge? when it's clear how isf and rcf (and thus the f badge) is positioned to be m and amg fighter? and now the new reasoning that "lexus is doing their own thing and no need to compete with bmw and mb"? i guess it's a lot to figure out first isn't it?
lfa proved a huge point for lexus, no doubt. however anyone who is remotely trying to compare the lfa market to that of isf, rcf, gsf (vs m3/4/5 and c63/e63) really has little idea on how these market works. one is supercar where it's about showcasing different aspects of the car (whether people like it or not is another story), one is a huge mass production by comparison where audience are mostly about status rather than driving.
so again, i have no problem with a v8 gs, i was probably one of the first few to cry and whine for one. but with the f badge? maybe we should go back and try to figure out what lexus is trying to define f as. simply something that's more sporty and more "fiji speedway"? or actually something to fight against m and amg to boost brand recognition in sport (which btw is what lexus has been focusing)?
i have said it many times and i will say it again. i am not against the idea of a 460hp gs. for crying out loud since day ONE i have been saying that the gs NEEDS a v8. absolutely zero problem on that. but with the gsf badge? when it's clear how isf and rcf (and thus the f badge) is positioned to be m and amg fighter? and now the new reasoning that "lexus is doing their own thing and no need to compete with bmw and mb"? i guess it's a lot to figure out first isn't it?
lfa proved a huge point for lexus, no doubt. however anyone who is remotely trying to compare the lfa market to that of isf, rcf, gsf (vs m3/4/5 and c63/e63) really has little idea on how these market works. one is supercar where it's about showcasing different aspects of the car (whether people like it or not is another story), one is a huge mass production by comparison where audience are mostly about status rather than driving.
so again, i have no problem with a v8 gs, i was probably one of the first few to cry and whine for one. but with the f badge? maybe we should go back and try to figure out what lexus is trying to define f as. simply something that's more sporty and more "fiji speedway"? or actually something to fight against m and amg to boost brand recognition in sport (which btw is what lexus has been focusing)?
Last edited by ydooby; 09-06-13 at 03:15 PM.
09-06-13, 02:14 PM
#510
i didn't say it's just as easy, but at the same time is that the excuse now?
i have said it many times and i will say it again. i am not against the idea of a 460hp gs. for crying out loud since day ONE i have been saying that the gs NEEDS a v8. absolutely zero problem on that. but with the gsf badge? when it's clear how isf and rcf (and thus the f badge) is positioned to be m and amg fighter? and now the new reasoning that "lexus is doing their own thing and no need to compete with bmw and mb"? i guess it's a lot to figure out first isn't it?
lfa proved a huge point for lexus, no doubt. however anyone who is remotely trying to compare the lfa market to that of isf, rcf, gsf (vs m3/4/5 and c63/e63) really has little idea on how these markets work. one is supercar where it's about showcasing different aspects of technology (whether people like it or not is another story), one is a huge mass production by comparison where audience are mostly about status rather than driving.
so again, i have no problem with a v8 gs, i was probably one of the first few to cry and whine for one. but with the f badge? maybe we should go back and try to figure out what lexus is trying to define f as. simply something that's more sporty and more "fiji speedway" as some start to perceive here? or actually something to fight against m and amg (demonstrated by isf and rcf) to boost brand recognition in sport (which btw is what lexus has been focusing)?
i have said it many times and i will say it again. i am not against the idea of a 460hp gs. for crying out loud since day ONE i have been saying that the gs NEEDS a v8. absolutely zero problem on that. but with the gsf badge? when it's clear how isf and rcf (and thus the f badge) is positioned to be m and amg fighter? and now the new reasoning that "lexus is doing their own thing and no need to compete with bmw and mb"? i guess it's a lot to figure out first isn't it?
lfa proved a huge point for lexus, no doubt. however anyone who is remotely trying to compare the lfa market to that of isf, rcf, gsf (vs m3/4/5 and c63/e63) really has little idea on how these markets work. one is supercar where it's about showcasing different aspects of technology (whether people like it or not is another story), one is a huge mass production by comparison where audience are mostly about status rather than driving.
so again, i have no problem with a v8 gs, i was probably one of the first few to cry and whine for one. but with the f badge? maybe we should go back and try to figure out what lexus is trying to define f as. simply something that's more sporty and more "fiji speedway" as some start to perceive here? or actually something to fight against m and amg (demonstrated by isf and rcf) to boost brand recognition in sport (which btw is what lexus has been focusing)?
Every company knows how high their brand image is and what they can sell, there are tons of example:
Jag XJR, Audi S8 are AMG S63's competitor, but they simply offer less for less. BMW don't even bother making a M7 to compete.
Gallardo vs. 12C vs. 458: Same class, different level, different price.
Genesis sedan vs. Lexus GS
It even apply at the top, LaFerrari, 918 and P1 all have different price point, HP and equipment levels. Porsche and McLaren just knows they can't hang with Ferrari as far as image goes.
There are tons of examples at all levels that where they are clearly in the same class, but they offer different level of equipments for different price.
Last edited by BNR34; 09-06-13 at 02:18 PM.