praetor

If Nissan can do it with the Skyline, I don't see how Lexus with much more R&D funds can't do it also. It's not like they are starting from scratch. Toyota developed a very bullet proof Twin Turbo I6 a long long time ago, when the Supra TT was unveiled. The 1JZGTE is capable of 500HP with just basic upgrades from stock. Highly modded ones have pushed out 1,000+HP. And this was from an engine developed back in 1992!

[edit] Supra engine was 1JZGTE

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Yup, prestige never change.

Look at Lamborghini, after 45 years of being Ferrari's main competitor, they are still in the same position, they are still Ferrari's cheaper alternative.

praetor

It's even worse in the sport bike world. The Japanese have dominated time and time again the sport of motorcycle racing. Reliability and performance is second to none. Value is unbeatable. Yet, people still ooh and awe over Ducati and Aprilla. Inferior machines that cost too much and require too maintenance. In WSBK, they even gave Ducati an extra 200CCs to level the playing field against 998cc Japanese bikes.

I like them all but let's give credit when credit is due.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Prestige and actual performance is independent of each other, it never changes. That is how this world is.

It apply to many other things too.

madfast

there is no direct comparison, only perceived. the GSF will probably be 10k cheaper and down 100 hp.

it cant be absurd because only lexus decides what F means.

how can there be a GS500 F Sport when there is no GS500?

the point is that it requires a new engine that they simply dont have, right now. not that they cant develop one, but the point is they probably havent.

not lately, and that's all that really matters. look how long it took them to come out with a turbo 4.

aftermarket hardly counts.

in terms of perception or actual sales? and what does lexus want to get out of it?

which is exactly why lexus wont join the hp wars. its a waste of money. there is nothing much to gain. prestige? the LFA did that already...

praetor

The LFA showed that Lexus can play with the big boys but for us commoners who can't afford an LFA, we are still living in the world of fancy Toyotas. Lexus despite it's many many accomplishments still lag in both prestige and sales behind the Germans.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

so even after i showed you proof from presses years ago, you still stick to your imagination point that "lexus defines what F means"? well i guess in that case then we simply agree to disagree, which is fine by me.

it's not about keep dreaming or not, and when did we suddenly "dream" about a 600hp machine now? as much as i love that to happen, but i am pretty sure most people (including me) asked for a 500hp setup. again, let's not randomly skew things now.

and the fact is, again, i work pretty closely with lexus and i hear enough things to have a pretty good "guess" (if you call that) what is going to be happen on the gsf. however, my philosophy is not to help start looking for excuses to justify and agree with the decisions, that's what "fans" do. i have no reservations in criticizing decisions by lexus when it's not done right

regarding the point about m5 didn't start with 500hp and didn't get so until 2005 with e60, that's an entirely invalid comparison. when mb first started building cars some 120 years ago, they had maybe what, 20hp? does that mean if someone starts a company making cars now, 20hp is a good starting point? let's stick to real time frame / technology.

setting the gsf against the e60 m5 would exactly do the car and brand that much harm -- creating a "dated" vehicle? is that really what lexus wants people to think? lexus should need people to compare it to the existing cars in the market, not previous generations. (again, sorry but lexus F is competing against AMG and M, if you don't agree, feel free to ignore)

plus, those who have followed my posts, i have always said lexus needs to be competitive against M and AMG, but i never said they have to be the "same". lexus has always been good on weight control and especially in this new generation, so that's a great start. so i NEVER EVER said lexus NEEDS to have a 550hp gsf. it would be very cool, but i don't see that happening. i have always asked for 500hp (see, NOT 600hp).

why? because it's far more achievable with a NA setup and no FI required. mb did that with the original m156 series. bmw could have done that too if they didn't keep the ultra high redline. but 500hp on a v8 is achievable.

and most importantly, 500hp is the "magical" number that the market looks for. yes, it's great for lexus to build something that drives really good and performs really good regardless of any of the "paper spec", but the question is whether that's how the market is perceiving it? for the longest time, i have said in this market region, bragging right makes the biggest talk. most m5 and e63 drivers they don't know how to really drive (first hand experience going to racing schools). they have the money and they want something to brag about, and having a "500hp machine" is more likely to sell than a "400hp machine".

some people make it a big deal how press and media focused on driving and thus the m5 and now less focus because it's not as good of a car, but funny thing is those are the same people who always preach not to focus on those press and media. after all, i always wonder how much these magazines influence purchases of these M and AMG anyway.

selling a "great driving" car is not easy, looks no further than the lexus lfa, and that's such a specific market already. there needs to be more attractive and obvious points in selling cars. i have pointed out what true audience in this market segment look for in the car, but i guess if you are not really in this market then it might not be easy to understand

oh and just to point it out in your post, you actually think that when bmw developed the s63, they didn't plan to have that in the m5/6 already? i truly hope people here realize that vehicle design cycles are far longer than they thought. if lexus is really just planning the gsf NOW, then i can only say they are not doing good. the new 2014 s class, i had seen the car way back in 2009. not a screen shot, but the actual freaking car in person. so all planning started even before that

rominl

iTrader: (4)

sales i think lexus is up there with mb and bmw, they have been neck to neck for the past years (and i think lexus won in many years before that too). some people might argue most lexus sold are rx and es, but then same thing for mb (c) and bmw (3).

prestige, yes i agree, something lexus (and everyone) has to build and it's freaking tough. it's definitely not done through your entry level models, but instead higher levels. the lfa was a great start. the F brand is a great start (again, against M and AMG) only if they do it right. and then the lf-lc (100+k luxury sports coupe) is the next step

so lexus is getting there and you can see they are doing the steps to build the prestigious status. but one wrong step and that can set themselves back

ydooby

^Couldn't have said it any better. Agreed 100%.

The GS-F may not need to exactly match or exceed the competition in horsepower, but it needs to be in the "same ballpark", which in today's generation of super sedans means "in the 500's hp ballpark". Otherwise the F marque will from then on simply be viewed as a clear level below the M/AMG/RS, which isn't what Lexus intended the F for.

One halo car does not prestige make. The F marque is just starting out and Lexus needs to carefully make sure that every car bearing the F marque can properly hang with the best of them. This is the perception shaping phase for the marque. Only after several iterations of such worthy efforts will prestige be established.

praetor

I agree with you brother. Lexus has come a long way and that is why I own one. You are preaching to the choir.

GSthe4th

iTrader: (1)

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, but I think you missed the point from my original post about the M5 time frame for reaching 500 hp. I was simply pointing out the obvious, that the "F" brand is lagging far behind M/AMG brand (timeline wise, but not 120 years!!!), and that I feel Lexus will not immediately come out and match the current M5 (#'s wise). I mentioned time/technology in the post, meaning I realize that it is possible for them to do so. I just feel the "F" brand will "grow" as M/AMG did, and Lexus will not come right out and give the world what it wants in the GSF. What will people have to look forward to with future models/gens? I just feel that Lexus will do what it wants (produce the complete car) rather than what enthusiasts want. Seems backwards! This is just my reasoned opinion, not based on the brand knowledge that you have. There is a lot of speculation about what the GSF will be, and I cannot wait until some concrete information surfaces.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

ah i see, thanks for the clarification, i did misunderstood the post and meaning. my apology

lexus is definitely growing with the F, and like how blueprint loves to keep repeating "rome wasn't build in one day", it definitely takes time. i actually have no problem in that at all, if anything i only admire the courage and goal that lexus has set. but i just don't want to give the market more reasons to down play lexus' effort by saying they are trying to match with yesterday's play.

we can all use the isf as an example. let's forget for now whether a NA v8 for 400hp is easy or not. given what the isf is right now (416hp v8 with great speed and handling), it fares extremely well with the m3 on the track in most aspects. it's being discussed with the c63 a lot too, even though 35 less hp. despite of engineering and driving, we all see how people hailed on the car when it came out, which took lexus years to prove themselves in the game.

now imagine if lexus came out with a 380hp isf instead, isn't that just another thing for people to point out? the car might have performed very similarly, but the market (meaning people actually have the mean to throw out 60k for the car) looks at it differently. in fact, if you look at resale value today, the isf is extremely strong in the used car market because it's one of the very few (if at all) 400+hp performance cars that are reliable. see what is selling the car and putting the lexus brand on the (used car) map?

that's pretty much what i am saying about the gsf. i am in no way saying a 465hp gsf won't be a great car to drive. but looking at this market i have my concern.

it will be a little while before more confirmed words come out on the gsf. i can only say i have no comment, i won't say i know something but i can't tell (too silly). i just hope lexus thinks clear, i like a lot of what they have done the past few years

madfast

the 600hp number was just an example.

its not excuses, its about being realistic. competing with the germans in the almost 100k super sedan segment serves what purpose for lexus? what have they to gain?


you say dated, i say classic. to some, the germans have lost the plot. their cars continue to get bigger and more powerful at the expense of driving enjoyment.

the fact that lexus havent made a ton of F cars just goes to show you how unimportant they think competing with AMG/M is...

lexus isnt going to make a car just so rich guys can brag about owning it. and even if they do, who's to say they will buy this over a german car?

simple. the GSF is targeting a lower segment. i personally believe the GSF is targeting the M3 more than the M5. crazy? perhaps not. i contend that the GSF, and not a future ISF, will be the sedan version of the RCF. they were seen together in the same garage at the nurburgring....

the point was that its unrealistic to think lexus has something in the background just waiting to debut. lexus doesnt even have a turbo 4 in their lineup yet some expect a twin turbo V8?

praetor

Toyota and Lexus has had an inline turbo 4 for the longest time. That engine was the 3SGTE used in the Turbo MR2. I sound like a broken record but those cars didn't sell in the states and were disco'd. No more Supra and no more Celicas and MR2s. Even Lexus disco'd the SC430 due to lack of sales.

It's one thing to be an enthusiast but if the numbers aren't there, Toyota/Lexus ain't building it. The LFA was an exception. Lexus built that car for two purposes 1) R&D and 2) To flex their muscles at the auto industry.

NewSpace

...and 3) Trickle down features, styling elements across the model line. See 4IS F Sport instrument panel!