Official GS-F discussion
#541
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If Nissan can do it with the Skyline, I don't see how Lexus with much more R&D funds can't do it also. It's not like they are starting from scratch. Toyota developed a very bullet proof Twin Turbo I6 a long long time ago, when the Supra TT was unveiled. The 1JZGTE is capable of 500HP with just basic upgrades from stock. Highly modded ones have pushed out 1,000+HP. And this was from an engine developed back in 1992!
[edit] Supra engine was 1JZGTE
[edit] Supra engine was 1JZGTE
Last edited by praetor; 09-11-13 at 06:47 AM.
#542
Lexus Fanatic
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12,000 copies but 486 cars for all of 2012. For a car that's selling at $60K a pop, that's just not sustainable. For all it's accomplishments, Lexus still suffers from the Supra and Skyline syndrome. Lack of prestige. Lexus is still viewed by many as just a fancy Toyota.
Look at Lamborghini, after 45 years of being Ferrari's main competitor, they are still in the same position, they are still Ferrari's cheaper alternative.
#543
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It's even worse in the sport bike world. The Japanese have dominated time and time again the sport of motorcycle racing. Reliability and performance is second to none. Value is unbeatable. Yet, people still ooh and awe over Ducati and Aprilla. Inferior machines that cost too much and require too maintenance. In WSBK, they even gave Ducati an extra 200CCs to level the playing field against 998cc Japanese bikes.
I like them all but let's give credit when credit is due.
I like them all but let's give credit when credit is due.
#544
Lexus Fanatic
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It's even worse in the sport bike world. The Japanese have dominated time and time again the sport of motorcycle racing. Reliability and performance is second to none. Value is unbeatable. Yet, people still ooh and awe over Ducati and Aprilla. Inferior machines that cost too much and require too maintenance. In WSBK, they even gave Ducati an extra 200CCs to level the playing field against 998cc Japanese bikes.
I like them all but let's give credit when credit is due.
I like them all but let's give credit when credit is due.
It apply to many other things too.
#545
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In the case of the GS-F however, there is *direct* competition (regardless if Lexus themselves state so or if the general public perceives it).
It is being pitted against the likes of the M5, E63 AMG, Audi RS6/RS7 as well as the Jaguar XF-R.
And all those above vehicles have one thing in common.............
It is being pitted against the likes of the M5, E63 AMG, Audi RS6/RS7 as well as the Jaguar XF-R.
And all those above vehicles have one thing in common.............
I mean don't get me wrong. I am excited that *finally* a 4GS with a V8 engine is coming and we ALL love to hear that.
BUT
to call it a "GS-F" yet only having less than 500 HP seems absurd.
BUT
to call it a "GS-F" yet only having less than 500 HP seems absurd.
Hence if that would be the case, then why not just call it a "GS 500 F-sport" then?
We're not exactly asking for 600 hp.
Rather, we're asking that the car should have AT LEAST 500 HP.
I mean sure some of us here may want something like 550 HP or 560 HP (M5-matching specs and whatnot)..............but for most of us, 500 HP MINIMUM will suffice.
In fact:
500 HP (minimum) + LIGHTER WEIGHT = ALL THAT A GS-F WOULD NEED
Rather, we're asking that the car should have AT LEAST 500 HP.
I mean sure some of us here may want something like 550 HP or 560 HP (M5-matching specs and whatnot)..............but for most of us, 500 HP MINIMUM will suffice.
In fact:
500 HP (minimum) + LIGHTER WEIGHT = ALL THAT A GS-F WOULD NEED
Also, as natnut said:
Toyota Group is NO STRANGER TO FORCED INDUCTION.
Toyota Group is NO STRANGER TO FORCED INDUCTION.
The TRD division has been making superchargers and turbochargers FOR YEARS NOW.
Regardless of that, one thing is for sure: THIS VEHICLE SEGMENT IS ON FIRE.......
The level of competition here is tough.
The only way to be part of that league is to have the one thing that all vehicles in that specific segment have and that is 500 HP minimum.
The only way to be part of that league is to have the one thing that all vehicles in that specific segment have and that is 500 HP minimum.
#546
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The LFA showed that Lexus can play with the big boys but for us commoners who can't afford an LFA, we are still living in the world of fancy Toyotas. Lexus despite it's many many accomplishments still lag in both prestige and sales behind the Germans.
#547
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its been explained already. the ISF and soon the RCF can compete with the M3/M4 because its relatively easy to do so in that segment. a 600hp GSF requires a twin turbo V8 that lexus simply doesnt have. dont forget the S63 originally debuted in the X5M/X6M. they further developed it for the M5/M6. where is lexus going to whip out a 600hp twin turbo V8? are we supposed to believe it exists behind closed doors and lexus is waiting to unveil it? are we supposed to believe the TMG TS-650 engine is production ready? you guys can keep dreaming.
instead i think they will release the GSF as a car in the same vein as the E60 M5. a 460hp NA V8 in the superb GS chassis would be a great car in its own right. the new M5 hasnt exactly set the world on fire. why not make the GSF like the old M5? such a car wont win drag races but it could be a winner for being a total package. makes total sense in every way.
instead i think they will release the GSF as a car in the same vein as the E60 M5. a 460hp NA V8 in the superb GS chassis would be a great car in its own right. the new M5 hasnt exactly set the world on fire. why not make the GSF like the old M5? such a car wont win drag races but it could be a winner for being a total package. makes total sense in every way.
it's not about keep dreaming or not, and when did we suddenly "dream" about a 600hp machine now? as much as i love that to happen, but i am pretty sure most people (including me) asked for a 500hp setup. again, let's not randomly skew things now.
and the fact is, again, i work pretty closely with lexus and i hear enough things to have a pretty good "guess" (if you call that) what is going to be happen on the gsf. however, my philosophy is not to help start looking for excuses to justify and agree with the decisions, that's what "fans" do. i have no reservations in criticizing decisions by lexus when it's not done right
regarding the point about m5 didn't start with 500hp and didn't get so until 2005 with e60, that's an entirely invalid comparison. when mb first started building cars some 120 years ago, they had maybe what, 20hp? does that mean if someone starts a company making cars now, 20hp is a good starting point? let's stick to real time frame / technology.
setting the gsf against the e60 m5 would exactly do the car and brand that much harm -- creating a "dated" vehicle? is that really what lexus wants people to think? lexus should need people to compare it to the existing cars in the market, not previous generations. (again, sorry but lexus F is competing against AMG and M, if you don't agree, feel free to ignore)
plus, those who have followed my posts, i have always said lexus needs to be competitive against M and AMG, but i never said they have to be the "same". lexus has always been good on weight control and especially in this new generation, so that's a great start. so i NEVER EVER said lexus NEEDS to have a 550hp gsf. it would be very cool, but i don't see that happening. i have always asked for 500hp (see, NOT 600hp).
why? because it's far more achievable with a NA setup and no FI required. mb did that with the original m156 series. bmw could have done that too if they didn't keep the ultra high redline. but 500hp on a v8 is achievable.
and most importantly, 500hp is the "magical" number that the market looks for. yes, it's great for lexus to build something that drives really good and performs really good regardless of any of the "paper spec", but the question is whether that's how the market is perceiving it? for the longest time, i have said in this market region, bragging right makes the biggest talk. most m5 and e63 drivers they don't know how to really drive (first hand experience going to racing schools). they have the money and they want something to brag about, and having a "500hp machine" is more likely to sell than a "400hp machine".
some people make it a big deal how press and media focused on driving and thus the m5 and now less focus because it's not as good of a car, but funny thing is those are the same people who always preach not to focus on those press and media. after all, i always wonder how much these magazines influence purchases of these M and AMG anyway.
selling a "great driving" car is not easy, looks no further than the lexus lfa, and that's such a specific market already. there needs to be more attractive and obvious points in selling cars. i have pointed out what true audience in this market segment look for in the car, but i guess if you are not really in this market then it might not be easy to understand
oh and just to point it out in your post, you actually think that when bmw developed the s63, they didn't plan to have that in the m5/6 already? i truly hope people here realize that vehicle design cycles are far longer than they thought. if lexus is really just planning the gsf NOW, then i can only say they are not doing good. the new 2014 s class, i had seen the car way back in 2009. not a screen shot, but the actual freaking car in person. so all planning started even before that
#548
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prestige, yes i agree, something lexus (and everyone) has to build and it's freaking tough. it's definitely not done through your entry level models, but instead higher levels. the lfa was a great start. the F brand is a great start (again, against M and AMG) only if they do it right. and then the lf-lc (100+k luxury sports coupe) is the next step
so lexus is getting there and you can see they are doing the steps to build the prestigious status. but one wrong step and that can set themselves back
#549
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^Couldn't have said it any better. Agreed 100%.![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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The GS-F may not need to exactly match or exceed the competition in horsepower, but it needs to be in the "same ballpark", which in today's generation of super sedans means "in the 500's hp ballpark". Otherwise the F marque will from then on simply be viewed as a clear level below the M/AMG/RS, which isn't what Lexus intended the F for.
One halo car does not prestige make. The F marque is just starting out and Lexus needs to carefully make sure that every car bearing the F marque can properly hang with the best of them. This is the perception shaping phase for the marque. Only after several iterations of such worthy efforts will prestige be established.
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The GS-F may not need to exactly match or exceed the competition in horsepower, but it needs to be in the "same ballpark", which in today's generation of super sedans means "in the 500's hp ballpark". Otherwise the F marque will from then on simply be viewed as a clear level below the M/AMG/RS, which isn't what Lexus intended the F for.
One halo car does not prestige make. The F marque is just starting out and Lexus needs to carefully make sure that every car bearing the F marque can properly hang with the best of them. This is the perception shaping phase for the marque. Only after several iterations of such worthy efforts will prestige be established.
Last edited by ydooby; 09-10-13 at 12:46 PM.
#550
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sales i think lexus is up there with mb and bmw, they have been neck to neck for the past years (and i think lexus won in many years before that too). some people might argue most lexus sold are rx and es, but then same thing for mb (c) and bmw (3).
prestige, yes i agree, something lexus (and everyone) has to build and it's freaking tough. it's definitely not done through your entry level models, but instead higher levels. the lfa was a great start. the F brand is a great start (again, against M and AMG) only if they do it right. and then the lf-lc (100+k luxury sports coupe) is the next step
so lexus is getting there and you can see they are doing the steps to build the prestigious status. but one wrong step and that can set themselves back
prestige, yes i agree, something lexus (and everyone) has to build and it's freaking tough. it's definitely not done through your entry level models, but instead higher levels. the lfa was a great start. the F brand is a great start (again, against M and AMG) only if they do it right. and then the lf-lc (100+k luxury sports coupe) is the next step
so lexus is getting there and you can see they are doing the steps to build the prestigious status. but one wrong step and that can set themselves back
#551
Pole Position
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regarding the point about m5 didn't start with 500hp and didn't get so until 2005 with e60, that's an entirely invalid comparison. when mb first started building cars some 120 years ago, they had maybe what, 20hp? does that mean if someone starts a company making cars now, 20hp is a good starting point? let's stick to real time frame / technology.
setting the gsf against the e60 m5 would exactly do the car and brand that much harm -- creating a "dated" vehicle? is that really what lexus wants people to think? lexus should need people to compare it to the existing cars in the market, not previous generations. (again, sorry but lexus F is competing against AMG and M, if you don't agree, feel free to ignore)
setting the gsf against the e60 m5 would exactly do the car and brand that much harm -- creating a "dated" vehicle? is that really what lexus wants people to think? lexus should need people to compare it to the existing cars in the market, not previous generations. (again, sorry but lexus F is competing against AMG and M, if you don't agree, feel free to ignore)
Last edited by GSthe4th; 09-10-13 at 01:34 PM.
#552
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I have always enjoyed reading your posts, but I think you missed the point from my original post about the M5 time frame for reaching 500 hp. I was simply pointing out the obvious, that the "F" brand is lagging far behind M/AMG brand (timeline wise, but not 120 years!!!), and that I feel Lexus will not immediately come out and match the current M5 (#'s wise). I mentioned time/technology in the post, meaning I realize that it is possible for them to do so. I just feel the "F" brand will "grow" as M/AMG did, and Lexus will not come right out and give the world what it wants in the GSF. What will people have to look forward to with future models/gens? I just feel that Lexus will do what it wants (produce the complete car) rather than what enthusiasts want. Seems backwards! This is just my reasoned opinion, not based on the brand knowledge that you have. There is a lot of speculation about what the GSF will be, and I cannot wait until some concrete information surfaces.
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lexus is definitely growing with the F, and like how blueprint loves to keep repeating "rome wasn't build in one day", it definitely takes time. i actually have no problem in that at all, if anything i only admire the courage and goal that lexus has set. but i just don't want to give the market more reasons to down play lexus' effort by saying they are trying to match with yesterday's play.
we can all use the isf as an example. let's forget for now whether a NA v8 for 400hp is easy or not. given what the isf is right now (416hp v8 with great speed and handling), it fares extremely well with the m3 on the track in most aspects. it's being discussed with the c63 a lot too, even though 35 less hp. despite of engineering and driving, we all see how people hailed on the car when it came out, which took lexus years to prove themselves in the game.
now imagine if lexus came out with a 380hp isf instead, isn't that just another thing for people to point out? the car might have performed very similarly, but the market (meaning people actually have the mean to throw out 60k for the car) looks at it differently. in fact, if you look at resale value today, the isf is extremely strong in the used car market because it's one of the very few (if at all) 400+hp performance cars that are reliable. see what is selling the car and putting the lexus brand on the (used car) map?
that's pretty much what i am saying about the gsf. i am in no way saying a 465hp gsf won't be a great car to drive. but looking at this market i have my concern.
it will be a little while before more confirmed words come out on the gsf. i can only say i have no comment, i won't say i know something but i can't tell (too silly). i just hope lexus thinks clear, i like a lot of what they have done the past few years
#553
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and the fact is, again, i work pretty closely with lexus and i hear enough things to have a pretty good "guess" (if you call that) what is going to be happen on the gsf. however, my philosophy is not to help start looking for excuses to justify and agree with the decisions, that's what "fans" do. i have no reservations in criticizing decisions by lexus when it's not done right
setting the gsf against the e60 m5 would exactly do the car and brand that much harm -- creating a "dated" vehicle? is that really what lexus wants people to think? lexus should need people to compare it to the existing cars in the market, not previous generations. (again, sorry but lexus F is competing against AMG and M, if you don't agree, feel free to ignore)
plus, those who have followed my posts, i have always said lexus needs to be competitive against M and AMG, but i never said they have to be the "same". lexus has always been good on weight control and especially in this new generation, so that's a great start. so i NEVER EVER said lexus NEEDS to have a 550hp gsf. it would be very cool, but i don't see that happening. i have always asked for 500hp (see, NOT 600hp).
and most importantly, 500hp is the "magical" number that the market looks for. yes, it's great for lexus to build something that drives really good and performs really good regardless of any of the "paper spec", but the question is whether that's how the market is perceiving it? for the longest time, i have said in this market region, bragging right makes the biggest talk. most m5 and e63 drivers they don't know how to really drive (first hand experience going to racing schools). they have the money and they want something to brag about, and having a "500hp machine" is more likely to sell than a "400hp machine".
selling a "great driving" car is not easy, looks no further than the lexus lfa, and that's such a specific market already. there needs to be more attractive and obvious points in selling cars. i have pointed out what true audience in this market segment look for in the car, but i guess if you are not really in this market then it might not be easy to understand
oh and just to point it out in your post, you actually think that when bmw developed the s63, they didn't plan to have that in the m5/6 already? i truly hope people here realize that vehicle design cycles are far longer than they thought. if lexus is really just planning the gsf NOW, then i can only say they are not doing good. the new 2014 s class, i had seen the car way back in 2009. not a screen shot, but the actual freaking car in person. so all planning started even before that
Last edited by madfast; 09-10-13 at 10:56 PM.
#554
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Toyota and Lexus has had an inline turbo 4 for the longest time. That engine was the 3SGTE used in the Turbo MR2. I sound like a broken record but those cars didn't sell in the states and were disco'd. No more Supra and no more Celicas and MR2s. Even Lexus disco'd the SC430 due to lack of sales.
It's one thing to be an enthusiast but if the numbers aren't there, Toyota/Lexus ain't building it. The LFA was an exception. Lexus built that car for two purposes 1) R&D and 2) To flex their muscles at the auto industry.
It's one thing to be an enthusiast but if the numbers aren't there, Toyota/Lexus ain't building it. The LFA was an exception. Lexus built that car for two purposes 1) R&D and 2) To flex their muscles at the auto industry.
#555
Lexus Test Driver
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...and 3) Trickle down features, styling elements across the model line. See 4IS F Sport instrument panel!
Toyota and Lexus has had an inline turbo 4 for the longest time. That engine was the 3SGTE used in the Turbo MR2. I sound like a broken record but those cars didn't sell in the states and were disco'd. No more Supra and no more Celicas and MR2s. Even Lexus disco'd the SC430 due to lack of sales.
It's one thing to be an enthusiast but if the numbers aren't there, Toyota/Lexus ain't building it. The LFA was an exception. Lexus built that car for two purposes 1) R&D and 2) To flex their muscles at the auto industry.
It's one thing to be an enthusiast but if the numbers aren't there, Toyota/Lexus ain't building it. The LFA was an exception. Lexus built that car for two purposes 1) R&D and 2) To flex their muscles at the auto industry.