rominl

iTrader: (4)

we might be getting a bit OT but then the 4gs is the beginning of the whole next generation of lexus so i guess it's somewhat related.

i think the whole "we don't want to be segment leaders" thing is total bs. if toyota didn't want to win, they wouldn't be the toyota/lexus today. they wouldn't want to race for #1 manufacturer and thus dropping their ***** big time on quality, something that haunted them the past few years

7 vs 5 and 3? well, don't forget we have the ES vs LS. so many people (inside and outside of CL) mistake the ES as LS or vise versa. what's the story about that then? i don't mistake the two, but similarly i don't mistake the bmws. on the topic of presence i guess it's all subjective. i love the stance of the 4ls, great improvement and much more presence than the 3ls. but presence wise? since 2007 i have always said the s class has noticeably more presence, as much as i don't like the pre-facelift. and post-facelift apple to apple i think the s kills the ls.

bringing the price into picture, 30k+ difference? where? get a ls460l (there is no s class swb here in the US) and equip it "normally", and then build a similar s550, the price difference on msrp is about 20k. and i can tell you if you lease one, the payment is going to be pretty much the same. not to mention the s550 has a lot more options that the ls doesn't even have. to me that's part of the definition of luxury

one thing i have to say is the hyundai today does look like lexus in 1989. in fact, i think most people outside in the public would think so. don't quote me numbers and say it's not the same. if you can say that the market is so much more competitive today and give an excuse to lexus on their expansion (and the gs can't catch up with e and 5, etc...), then the same excuse can apply to hyundai for not blowing everyone else out of the water. i am not saying 10 years from now hyundai luxury line can stay the same (or more), that's something to be told 10 years from now. but with all due respect, the way hyundai 1989 is being shot down right now, it's nothing different from what bmw and mb people said back in 1989 about lexus

but one thing to be clear with my post here is that i am not trying to push down lexus and glorify any other brands (i am not brand loyal). what i am trying to say is all the other competitors have really stepped up a lot over the past 20 years and the playing field is quite level right now the way i see it. this is vs say 10 years ago, when i think lexus has a much better advantage over most competitors.

in a big way we have to thank lexus for that. they shook everything up back then and suddenly everyone was behind by years. but to me especially the past few years, lexus got slow and couldn't maintain the distance, creating the situation we have in front of us.

i still think lexus has the capability to get ahead again, question is, are they going to?

oh well, my 1/2 cents anyway

*Batman*

I disagree with you and Mike on this.

No company can aspire to be the leader in every segment - especially a broadly defined segment like the mid-size luxury sport sedan market. Maybe BMW, Mercedes and Audi aspire to lead this segment. But many others like Jaguar just want to carve out an attractive niche sub-segment of this market.

Lexus aspires in my opinion to be segment leaders in the large luxury sedan segment (which they lead with the LS), the mid-size SUV segment (which they lead with the RX), and the Hybrid cross-segment market (which they totally dominate), and the entry-level luxury sedan segment (which they have a close to leadership position with the duo of IS and ES).

But in the mid-size luxury sport sedan segment, Toyoda said he originally didn't want this car to be made. I might believe that Lexus division convinced him it was important and that they can carve out a profitable segment, but I have a hard time believing their goal is to own it.

In the mid-size segment to lead that segment you need diesels, V8s, and wagons. If you don't have all that, you are aiming for a sub-segment of that market. In Lexus case probably the V6 and Hybrid sedan sub-segment. But you can't be thinking of being the leader or you would have brought more to the battle.

BTW I think Lexus should offer a sporty mini van that is better than the Mercedes R-Class. This is an underserved but potentially large segment IMO.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

when i made my statement, i meant more from a company wide approach, and if we talk about the mid-segment, there was the 2gs story. it's stupid if a company as a whole doesn't want to be leader and just followers. doesn't make sense. everyone wants to be the leader. and if we get to this segment (mid-size), if lexus didn't want to be leader, they wouldn't have introduced something like the gs400 back in 1998. very clear what they wanted to do (even in their advertising). but obviously we see that somewhat changed over the years. that's why i said if they now use the "we don't want to be leaders" phrase to defend their position, i think that's more of an excuse

*Batman*

Agree! Also I think their ambitions are sufficiently broad that they shouldn't have punted on this segment. Should have pulled off another GS400.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

and a fantastic 1/2 cents too!

excellent post, and i agree with all of it. i personally really WANT (as i'm sure you do) lexus to innovate, be daring, and shake things up more! what happened to 'something wicked this way comes'?

the CT is pretty cool. the 4GS is impressive, except for keeping the same ol' 3.5 engine and 6 speed transmissions and dropping the V8 so they lost a lot of the impact of the introduction imo. i also haven't read why the fogs aren't on some models though.

the volume of lexus vehicles sold is tiny compared to toyotas of course, so they should be daring with it! they don't have much to lose! but they will lose if they play it too 'safe'.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yes, i am soooo hoping for the gs400 days to come again. i am confident lexus can do it if they want to. in fact i don't see why not (look at the lfa). but i wonder what's brewing up their management causing the disconnect and hesitation. if anything, that's the part that i am interested in

see, with the fsport pictures out now, i personally think it's a "confirmation" that they can do it. i like what they did to the front. not in a sense that i like the car, but i like their approach. they can never please everyone, but they can be daring / aggressive, and try to search for the soul / design language. just like the 2gs, it was so different, so daring, there were people who didn't like it, but obviously got the hearts of a lot of us. looking at the 4gs f sport front, i give them a thumb up for their courage

i don't need to go to the rest of the story on sides/rear of the car, or the engine options. that's been beaten to death. and that's kind of what i think lexus has to be clear too. i know it might be me day dreaming, but if they put a few more aggressive lines on the side of the car, bolder design for the rear, with the interior they have now, and then throw in a 5l engine making it gs500, price it around 65 to 70k? man, i think that might work (for me at least). really spell another 1998

Mr. Burns

IMO the S-class doesn't have anywhere near the amount of presence you'd expect given its lofty price tag - and I stand by my observation.




Ultimately it's just an opinion but IMO the current S-class design is inelegant and just poor. The wheel arches and headlight shape are horrid, but of course it has the fancy Mercedes grill and hood ornament. Without it they would be lost.

*Batman*

Agree S-Class appearance is sub par, but not as sub-par as it's driving experience.

Rubbish as the S-Class is, the CLS is a dream both in terms of looks and driving experience. I would have bought CLS except for the Comand system which I could not tolerate.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i am never a fan of those wheel arcs either, search my posts way back starting 2007, that's how early did i start saying that. but i am talking about the presence anyway, and yes it's opinions. you posted picture of the LS facelift. the s class facelift with the improvement on the front end is a killer. it's ok, every brand has their design language and that's why different people like different things

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

of course you post an S320, not even sold here, and a 'stripped' model. that's more 'taxi'.

newer s550 looks better:

Mr. Burns

Find me a real world pic in a similar angle, it's harder than you think. Maybe this S500 would suffice though it's pre-facelift. The body though is still the same and horrid.





7 series thrown in for good measure. Like I said, you're selling the LS short, just look at that lower front fascia on the 7 series and compare it to the LS. It's design grace like that which I find appealing in Lexus whereas the Germans are perhaps flashier, but the execution is a lot less elegant and a lot more techno-forced. If I'm paying that kind of money, I don't want techno-forced, I want graceful and elegant, but for most people I suspect the badge and lease rates are higher priorities.

LexFather

Why is it fine to trash Lexus for wheel gap, bad wheel choices etc but don't bring up a base German car without sport trim. They sell it, there are pics of it, its fair game. To the other end Benz has the splendid S63/S65 and Lexus has nothing to compete. Fair game.

The argument "oh the LS isn't in the same class as the Germans" is stated until one realizes you can get a 4 cylinder S-class or a FWD A8 etc overseas...then its "oh Lexus should offer that"

I am no fan of the LS facelift, much prefer the 07-08 version though.

They all have presence to me, even the Equus has luxury proportions. I wasn't a fan of the S-class SUV fender flares but IMO that car speaks "I HAVE ARRIVED".

rominl

iTrader: (4)

lmao, you should take things more easily. most of the adjectives you used in your posts are subjective anyway, similarly when bitkahuna says it, or when i say it, or when 1sicklex says it. just because some people prefer another brand doesn't mean they have no taste and care only about badges and lease rates.

lol because even if you move up the trim on LS, the wheel gap is still as bad? i do think my s550 has less wheel gap than my ls460l i work on ls460 all the time, you have hear what a lot of customers tell me regarding the wheel gap. not my words, theirs!

at least i can tell you i don't point my finger at lexus for no reason, and i definitely don't point only at lexus.

*Batman*

These discussions around aesthetics are always inconclusive and in the end market share is what counts.

Personally my favorite huge sedans are in the following order:
1) Porsche Panamera in electric blue
2) Jag XJ Supersport in Indigo Blue
3) BMW 750i M-Sport in Deep Sea Blue

After these cars which I think all look great, are a couple which I think look okay but don't stir me.
4) Audi A8 S-Line
5) Lexus LS460 Sport

Cars I find ugly
6) Maserati quattroporte
7) Hyundai Equus

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i know you had the LS, but you have an S550 now!?