ydooby

The previous discussion of the GS250 being "slow" was triggered by the sight of a GS250 with California plate. And yes, I would still say it's too slow for the American luxury car standards if the IS250 is any indication.

Europeans are used to slow luxury cars so their perspective would most certainly be different and inapplicable to Americans'.

flipside909

But who's to say the IS 250 is a slow car? It's pretty quick...and definitely faster than the CT 200h and HS250h.. An ES250 is slow by luxury car standards. 10.2 second 0-60.

LOL thats gotta be the most ignorant statement in this thread..and Americans aren't? Remember the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham? That was a huge car with a huge v8 that was...yup you guessed it... slow!

flipside909

Also the Europeans were the ones who pushed the envelop creating the fastest luxury sport sedans. You can thank Mercedes Benz with the 500E and then BMW with the first M5. It wasn't until the mid to late 90's that the American market took high performance luxury sport sedans seriously.

ydooby

Do I need to mention it's today's standards?

The CT is slow, yes, but people can tolerate it only because it's really efficient for a "luxury" car. Also, although I've never driven the CT, I feel that the 3rd-gen Prius, which I have driven, to be more powerful than the IS250.

flipside909

The "slow" IS 250 is very efficient for a luxury car, thats why its one of Lexus' best selling models.

People tolerate the CT because its within their price point. The can care less about 0-60 performance and power just like those who buy the IS 250. Those buyers are concerned about comfort and MPG....otherwise they could save thousands and opt for a Prius and get higher fuel economy. Heck they can get a Camry SE V6 that costs thousands less, has a powerful engine and is larger in every dimension...but at the end of the day its still a Camry.

GS 250 works in europe because of the taxes put on CO2 emissions. Its plenty adequate for the tiny roads they have in their populous towns and metro areas and its plenty comfortable for those cruising down the expressways.

ydooby

When the Autocar reviewer was praising the GS250's engine he of course was not comparing it to the M5 , but instead the other cars in the same entry-level midsize luxury segment, e.g. the 520i, E200, etc. Thought it was obvious enough.

flipside909

I'm talking about your reference to Europeans being used to slow cars. They are used to slow cars but they were the pioneers in creating the fast ones. But because of their gov't restrictions, having a larger more powerful engine is costly. So to say that "it's too slow for the American luxury car standards if the IS250 is any indication" is a bit premature considering you haven't driven the GS 250 validate that statement. It's clear you think the IS 250 is slow, but majority of us here think its perfectly fine. The 4GR-FSE is a pretty good motor and it performs very well. It also gets phenomenal mileage for what it is. Perhaps if you owned the IS 250 and drove it everyday your perception would change but I highly doubt it as your experiences are limited to borrowing your father's car (IS250) for a short period if that.

ydooby

Yes they are used to super sedans too but my point is that they know very well what to expect when entering a midsize luxury car with a 2-liter engine.Well I've driven my dad's IS250 for quite a few times, including once when I alternated with my dad as a driver in a 5-day family road trip (and that's when my dangerous encounter with an oncoming traffic happened) so my seat time in the IS250 isn't that short. You're right that the fact that the IS250's sales isn't too shabby means that people can tolerate the IS250's performance at that price point, but the GS250 is bound to cost a lot more and people who can afford it will expect more. I still think re-introducing the GS300 to the US as a new entry GS model would be a much better move for Lexus--BMW offers a 3-liter engine in its base 5-series too, after all.

LexFather

ydooby, not sure why your tone is so argumentative when Ryan like myself has ridden in or driven most Lexus vehicles so his opinion holds as much weight as anyone not named Toyoda.

We get it, you think "your dad's" IS 250 is slow. Fine. Let's move on especially since the GS 250 is only 200lbs heavier. Its not like its a much heavier car.

The first review is VERY POSITIVE about the car, lets focus on positives for change. Way to many people here only focus on negatives.

I don't have the GS business plan but I can make a good assumption that Lexus/Toyota wants to use as many of these 2.5 liter engines as possible before making way for a new engine. Do you know how much it costs to make a new engine? A couple hundred or million easy. EASY. From the review it seems Lexus is offering people a nice N/A motor in a market used to turbo 4 cylinders. Its intention is not to be fast, the GS 450h is clearly that GS in the lineup. In the past the GS had engines not really catered to the market and sales lagged. They GS 450h was the first intention to move to hybrids in Europe and the new model continues this with now an entry level 250 SORELY needed.

Lexus doesn't expect to sell 500,000 cars in Europe, they are after sales improvements for the brand year after years and finally are catering to European tastes.

ydooby

I'm not talking about the GS250 being a negative thing. It's a totally positive move for Lexus Europe, like the Autocar review has confirmed. Again, I'm just worried for Lexus to be seen as a performance underdog here in the US if they decide to introduce the GS250 to the American market, as the pic of the GS250 with California plate implies. All the other base models in the midsize luxury segment in the US have much better performance than the GS250, after all. That's why I'm worried for Lexus if they really make this move.

LexFather

Its an entry level base model. Tons of people want this type of car. Internet warriors talk about peak HP and 0-60. The market has a big spot for slower mid size luxury sedans.

My GOODNESS the Mercedes E350 soldiered on with a 260 or so hp V-6 among slowest in class and it sold like hotcakes then and now. I didn't see constant posts ragging on their lower hp rating.

If a GS 250 appears its only main competitor is the 528 which is now a 4cylinder turbo and even with the turbo a lot of people don't want 4 cylinders.

If Lexus can sell 500-1000 of them additionally a month who cares what internet warriors think.

flipside909

LOL you're reading way too far into the lines. The reason why they are plated with CA DST 27202 plates are because they are pre-production prototypes. The GS 250's that are at the press event are cars not registered here, so they must put the Distributor plates in order to legally be driven on California roads to be evaluated with. The press event was a global press event meaning several journalist waves came in from all over the world. First week was USA, 2nd week was Europe and this week was Asia. Last year the CT press launch was held in Paris France where I was in attendance. Yes we got to drive US spec cars on French roadways, but because Toyota Europe's headquarters are in Brussels, most of the CT's we drove have Belgium plates. I can tell you that the GS 450h FSport and the GS 250 FSport that you see in those pics are built for different regions but all brought here to CA for the event. Notice no North American journalist wrote about the GS 250 and the GS450h F Sport? I'm the only one that has been talking about it.

ydooby

Thanks for the full story. Wish you would've told us earlier why the GS250 was here. Well all is good then. The GS250 is definitely going to help the GS sales a lot outside the US market.

On the other hand Lexus USA still needs something to compete with the likes of the 528i in the US and I hope they have the GS300 (a GS300h would be awesome too) on their mind.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

to be honest i am a bit disappointed because if they put the gs250 in europe, really, might as well do it here in the US. if the car drives as good as the reviews claim, even at 206hp i don't see it being a problem compared to what competitions are offering

ydooby

I agree that it would be "convenient" for Lexus to bring what they are already going to produce to the US, but when you consider the 0-60 performance of its US competition--the 528i at 6.2 (!!!) seconds and the A6 2.0T at 7.5 seconds--the GS250's 8.6 seconds simply isn't going to cut it. It may boost short-term sales but it will do harm to Lexus's performance image in the long term IMHO. The 2006 GS300 did 0-60 in 6.8 seconds so bringing it back will make the base GS that much more competitive without having to resort to significantly undercutting the competition in pricing (which again would do harm to Lexus's image).