GS vs new ES
02-24-12, 04:55 PM
#17
I guess I'm confused why a bunch of people that have no interest in buying the 4GS are so vocal in multiple threads about it? Then we haven't even seen the ES in the flesh yet. To top that off it is still FWD and proportions on FWD cars rarely come off successfully with luxurious proportions, like the awful TL for instance.
Like it or not this is the new face of Lexus. To Lexus credit, looking at pics, the vehicle seem to share the same grill, the new LED tubes (which are already on the LS) but don't look like same design different length cars so far.
jjscix, it takes trick AWD to make the TL handle better than the GS (which it does handle better than the 3GS as you noted), 10% sold are AWD, 90% sold FWD, 4% sold are a manual. So no one buys it, no one tracks it and they are hardly modded with no aftermarket support. Its built in Ohio, Accord based and is ES competition. Honda did a great job with SH-AWD, it is a fantastic system but the car has been out 4 years and enthusiasts have avoided it like the plague. No one seems to care how good it handles. And its not just the front end, the entire car is terrible and a horrible design, poor Acura wanted to sell 70,000 and sell around 30-34,000 a year. Their volume car. (contrarily your C6 is the ****
)
Some have no desire for FWD based cars or AWD cars. Its apples to oranges.
Like it or not this is the new face of Lexus. To Lexus credit, looking at pics, the vehicle seem to share the same grill, the new LED tubes (which are already on the LS) but don't look like same design different length cars so far.
jjscix, it takes trick AWD to make the TL handle better than the GS (which it does handle better than the 3GS as you noted), 10% sold are AWD, 90% sold FWD, 4% sold are a manual. So no one buys it, no one tracks it and they are hardly modded with no aftermarket support. Its built in Ohio, Accord based and is ES competition. Honda did a great job with SH-AWD, it is a fantastic system but the car has been out 4 years and enthusiasts have avoided it like the plague. No one seems to care how good it handles. And its not just the front end, the entire car is terrible and a horrible design, poor Acura wanted to sell 70,000 and sell around 30-34,000 a year. Their volume car. (contrarily your C6 is the ****
)Some have no desire for FWD based cars or AWD cars. Its apples to oranges.
I appreciate your comment on that Corvette btw, and I like you on the forum, so I'm willing on keeping this civil
I know you'll ask, so I'll go ahead and tell you why I sold the Z06. I have had six Corvettes in the last ten years (seven total), but I now have three motorcycles. I just decided I am a lot more passionate about the motorcycles than the Corvette and while it's a second car, I just decided to put the money in the bank than have it sit in the garage.As to your first point about people posting negative comments about the new GS. This is a GS forum, and I still own a GS. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a discussion - good, bad or ugly about the car. It's not like I'm a troll as I do own one now.
02-24-12, 06:28 PM
#18
I respect your opinion, but I don't feel the same way. I sat in the 2012 GS the other day, so I'm not going by pics. I don't care for the interior. Individual components look fine, but they look like they were designed by several people who never met each other until they were done.
We have a TL SH-AWD as you obviously noted. I hated the looks of the 10-11, but the changes to the 12 fixed most of what I didn't like. I can at least understand why some folks don't like it, so won't argue the point. But this I will argue. There is simply no comparison between the handling of our SH-AWD and my GS. The TL handles light years better than my GS. I have not driven the new GS so I can't comment on that. And yes, the TL rides a little rougher, but that is simply a matter of accepting what is more important - ride or handling. The TL is also a much more solid car than the GS.
We have a TL SH-AWD as you obviously noted. I hated the looks of the 10-11, but the changes to the 12 fixed most of what I didn't like. I can at least understand why some folks don't like it, so won't argue the point. But this I will argue. There is simply no comparison between the handling of our SH-AWD and my GS. The TL handles light years better than my GS. I have not driven the new GS so I can't comment on that. And yes, the TL rides a little rougher, but that is simply a matter of accepting what is more important - ride or handling. The TL is also a much more solid car than the GS.
So back on topic. The ES is a nice for those who enjoy luxury and comfort and more smoother design while the GS is for people who are looking for more sportier feel and sharper looks in a category that is more expensive and have the 5, E, A6, and XF so there are necessary differences needed to be made and you cannot make a car with everything and cater to all demographics of people otherwise its too boring and mundane. GS has a class of its own and its done a great job in tests against the german cars. Overtime the design will grow on people.
Last edited by Rexus300; 02-24-12 at 06:31 PM.
02-24-12, 07:04 PM
#19
Strike two is that the car is not offered with enough fire power either. I'm not at all happy that an all new generation GS has come out with the identical drivetrain that has been out for five years now, but without the option of the V8 and not even the 8 speed transmission that Lexus has had in the V8 car, and all the competition has at least a 7 speed if not 8.
02-24-12, 07:16 PM
#20
I guess some of you are a little sensitive when people post negative opinion on Lexus.
Comparing a TL to a GS and 5 series? C'mon! Before the 2009 makeover, the TL, a FWD entry luxury sedan was among the top sellers sedan. Yes, they've been doing really bad with sales right now with their RL and TL but the 3GS didn't sell a boat load either. And I doubt that the 4GS will hit Lexus wish sales number. At least the first couple years. This is why I refused to pay MSRP on the 4GS and bought a 2011 GS for a massive discount.
From what I've read on other forums and comments on blog. 80% of the comments are negative on Lexus new styling.
Comparing a TL to a GS and 5 series? C'mon! Before the 2009 makeover, the TL, a FWD entry luxury sedan was among the top sellers sedan. Yes, they've been doing really bad with sales right now with their RL and TL but the 3GS didn't sell a boat load either. And I doubt that the 4GS will hit Lexus wish sales number. At least the first couple years. This is why I refused to pay MSRP on the 4GS and bought a 2011 GS for a massive discount.
From what I've read on other forums and comments on blog. 80% of the comments are negative on Lexus new styling.
Last edited by NickL; 02-24-12 at 07:23 PM.
02-24-12, 08:38 PM
#21
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As I said in an earlier thread, others are welcome to their opinion. Your comment about enthusiasts avoiding them like the plague I don't get. There are a lot of folks on the TL forum who have them and love the handling. You know I had a Z06 Corvette (just sold it last week). I'm thinking I'm an enthusiast and I have a TL. BTW, the TL is my wifes car, and my reasons for buying the SH-AWD version had more to do with other factors than the sportiness of the car. But I will tell you that now that I have it, I could never buy a FWD version of the car - I like the SH-AWD that much. I know the car is controversial - it was for us too. But it's a hell of a car, especially for the money.
I appreciate your comment on that Corvette btw, and I like you on the forum, so I'm willing on keeping this civil I know you'll ask, so I'll go ahead and tell you why I sold the Z06. I have had six Corvettes in the last ten years (seven total), but I now have three motorcycles. I just decided I am a lot more passionate about the motorcycles than the Corvette and while it's a second car, I just decided to put the money in the bank than have it sit in the garage.
As to your first point about people posting negative comments about the new GS. This is a GS forum, and I still own a GS. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a discussion - good, bad or ugly about the car. It's not like I'm a troll as I do own one now.
I appreciate your comment on that Corvette btw, and I like you on the forum, so I'm willing on keeping this civil
I know you'll ask, so I'll go ahead and tell you why I sold the Z06. I have had six Corvettes in the last ten years (seven total), but I now have three motorcycles. I just decided I am a lot more passionate about the motorcycles than the Corvette and while it's a second car, I just decided to put the money in the bank than have it sit in the garage.As to your first point about people posting negative comments about the new GS. This is a GS forum, and I still own a GS. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a discussion - good, bad or ugly about the car. It's not like I'm a troll as I do own one now.
At car shows, there are never any new TLs, there is simply no interest in this vehicle for various reasons. No its not a bad car at all, engine is fine, interior is fine, features are fine, it drives fine. It is ES 350 competition, not GS/5 series or anything else. I've read the "oh it is the size of a 5 series so its 5 series competiton" argument which is about the dumbest thing one can read (you have never said that
)I won't link my review on it but to be fair I took the wife to the Acura dealer to try them out when we went car shopping I won't repeat her comments.
Thus different strokes for different folks. What I will say even with the "beak" styling there are owners that like it and are attracted to it and Acura slapped early adopters in the face by trying to fix it and admitting it was terrible. I hope Lexus sticks to its guns and doesn't do the same. Its not fair for all those new "beak" owners to hear over and over how the beak sucks and the cars suck.
I guess some of you are a little sensitive when people post negative opinion on Lexus.
Comparing a TL to a GS and 5 series? C'mon! Before the 2009 makeover, the TL, a FWD entry luxury sedan was among the top sellers sedan. Yes, they've been doing really bad with sales right now with their RL and TL but the 3GS didn't sell a boat load either. And I doubt that the 4GS will hit Lexus wish sales number. At least the first couple years. This is why I refused to pay MSRP on the 4GS and bought a 2011 GS for a massive discount.
From what I've read on other forums and comments on blog. 80% of the comments are negative on Lexus new styling.
Comparing a TL to a GS and 5 series? C'mon! Before the 2009 makeover, the TL, a FWD entry luxury sedan was among the top sellers sedan. Yes, they've been doing really bad with sales right now with their RL and TL but the 3GS didn't sell a boat load either. And I doubt that the 4GS will hit Lexus wish sales number. At least the first couple years. This is why I refused to pay MSRP on the 4GS and bought a 2011 GS for a massive discount.
From what I've read on other forums and comments on blog. 80% of the comments are negative on Lexus new styling.
Not many people have the foggiest idea about sales figures and reference the last years of the GS to try to dictate it sold poorly. That is far from the truth in regards to sales. Mind you the 2 and 3GS never had any lease term remotely favorable. Its quite amazing they sold that many.
80% of the people on the internet hate Lexus no matter what they do
02-24-12, 09:51 PM
#22
@Jwall True that! there's always going to be haters. Not that bad on this site but I've seen some bad ones lol. As for the TL, why are we comparing them again? I hate Acura's leather, they suck, not sure about the 2010+. But they got heck of an engine, 500,000k on my dad's last car.
When people don't like something they hope for, they complain then when it comes out better they make other excuses. I remember years ago people saying, " oh Lexus is boring, they dont built anything fun,their style is zzzzz, they're too slow...etc etc. And now this 4GS just dominates the competition, people saying it's too bold,too aggressive, give me a damn break. Appreciate for the mechanical and technology that's built then for crying out loud. I've never been a bias person ever since I came on this site, I tell it straight up if it's ugly and crap no matter what brand. If you dont like the styling, fine but stop complaining but give kudos to the craftsmanship.
When people don't like something they hope for, they complain then when it comes out better they make other excuses. I remember years ago people saying, " oh Lexus is boring, they dont built anything fun,their style is zzzzz, they're too slow...etc etc. And now this 4GS just dominates the competition, people saying it's too bold,too aggressive, give me a damn break. Appreciate for the mechanical and technology that's built then for crying out loud. I've never been a bias person ever since I came on this site, I tell it straight up if it's ugly and crap no matter what brand. If you dont like the styling, fine but stop complaining but give kudos to the craftsmanship.
02-25-12, 02:07 AM
#24
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Almost every car is a copy of another car somehow! Yes the ES is base off a Camry just like my uncles Passat looks the same as the Audi A6. You can do that with almost any car that has a regular and luxury brand!
I think the new ES is a lot more modern and sportier looking than the old model and overall is a nice car. The new GS is really nice except the back! Also some cars look better in person or different color like the new GS to me looks better in darker shiny colors.
I think the new ES is a lot more modern and sportier looking than the old model and overall is a nice car. The new GS is really nice except the back! Also some cars look better in person or different color like the new GS to me looks better in darker shiny colors.
02-25-12, 04:13 AM
#25
Negative always outways positive.People always come in forums to ***** about what they dont like rather then praise what they do. I take absoluetly nothing from what most say on forums most of it is laughable its all personal opinion or they are trying to solve a moral dilemma such as did i screw up by getting the 5 series before the new gs came out? So to offset that this feeling may be true (that the new gs is much better looking) they come onto forums and bash the design in multiple formals so they can feel better about there decision. Its all personal. Oh ps i think the new es looks awesome!!! The fact that its being compared to the gs is retarted. Two completely different vehicles bought for completely different reasons. Why dont we comapre them both to the 2013 LX while we are here.
What I get tired of on forums is people like you who want forums to be one big love in that only say good things about the car. Your notion that people have no right to come on the forum - as if there is some right wing conspiracy whereby people wake up one morning and say "hey, I'm going to find a car forum and get on it and bash the car". Most of us are here for a reason.
Actually, a good example is the Acura TL forum. I frequented the current generation forum for two years without owning one. The reason is that I had been on the forum since 04 because I owned an 04 for two years. Yes, I bashed the current generation car on the forum. I strongly considered a '10 TL when I got my Lexus. But there were three things that bothered me about the car and I said so on the forum. I didn't like the beak, didn't like that it only had a 5 speed automatic, and I wanted ventilated seats. But I continued to follow the car on the forum and low and behold last year they changed the beak, added a six speed automatic and optional ventilated seats. I bought one. And even though it's my wife's car, I drive it a fair amount and despite what "1SICLEX" above thinks of it, I actually am extremely impressed with the car.
02-25-12, 04:24 AM
#26
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The taillight is copy straight up from new-Gen BMW, also is the LED parking light from Audi. Before you know it, Lexus gonna turns into Hyundai of older years.....just copying other manufactures design.
02-25-12, 04:33 AM
#27
Agree. I also find the way it wraps around looks more dynamic than the GS design.
It seems that with the GS they were too concerned to bridge the new language and the old design language and you ended up with a 2IS with a Darthvader grille. The ES looks more fluent - like a fully new design. The styling is more coherent as if it was designed by one designer.
It seems that with the GS they were too concerned to bridge the new language and the old design language and you ended up with a 2IS with a Darthvader grille. The ES looks more fluent - like a fully new design. The styling is more coherent as if it was designed by one designer.
On topic: I don't understand what you guys are debating about. Everyone has an opinion and forums are the place where they are dumped. As long as there are no personal attacks, it's all just words of thoughts.
My view of the 3GS changed so dramaticaly that I ended up owning 2 of them.
I called them unattractive and sometimes down right ugly until my view changed.
The same goes for the 4GS. Don't like it but this time I don't think I'll change enough to buy one. Certainly not a new one. There is hope of liking it though. The ES proves it. To me it looks better than the 4GS. Still don't like the spindle but it looks better executed on the ES.
I'm gonna keep saying I don't like the spindle because I want Lexus Corp to know. We know for a fact the dealers read our forum. I sure the info gets to corporate.
It's all just opinions....but opinions drive business.
02-25-12, 06:32 AM
#28
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Thread Starter
I have a hard time figuring out whether you really believe this.
People on the internet don't hate Lexus. If they did this wouldn't be one of the better car forums and Lexus wouldnt be a best selling brand.
But I find it interesting that people rave about the 3GS as a huge success in its first year when in reality it had the sales profile of a one-hit wonder. Popular for a year and then disappeared of the face of the planet. That smacks of a product which must have had serious lack of appeal (and I say this despite buying one myself in 2009 because I liked the 460).
You and I had a similar debate over the HS too when I correctly predicted that the product would fail because of its Toyota like appearance and compromised Lexus design and engineering values. My sense is the same is true of the 4GS but not the 6ES.
I have a few of more predictions here:
1) 4GS is a fail due to its appearance and will have a TL like sales pattern until mid cycle refresh
2) 6ES will be a big hit
3) RX update will be a big hit
4) All future Lexus in this range will have the chrome trim around the grille extend to the bottom of the bumper like one big grille. And the grille will be integrated into the bumper like on the ES to create a more modern look which separates from the 2IS.
People on the internet don't hate Lexus. If they did this wouldn't be one of the better car forums and Lexus wouldnt be a best selling brand.
But I find it interesting that people rave about the 3GS as a huge success in its first year when in reality it had the sales profile of a one-hit wonder. Popular for a year and then disappeared of the face of the planet. That smacks of a product which must have had serious lack of appeal (and I say this despite buying one myself in 2009 because I liked the 460).
You and I had a similar debate over the HS too when I correctly predicted that the product would fail because of its Toyota like appearance and compromised Lexus design and engineering values. My sense is the same is true of the 4GS but not the 6ES.
I have a few of more predictions here:
1) 4GS is a fail due to its appearance and will have a TL like sales pattern until mid cycle refresh
2) 6ES will be a big hit
3) RX update will be a big hit
4) All future Lexus in this range will have the chrome trim around the grille extend to the bottom of the bumper like one big grille. And the grille will be integrated into the bumper like on the ES to create a more modern look which separates from the 2IS.
Last edited by *Batman*; 02-25-12 at 07:08 AM.
02-25-12, 06:51 AM
#29
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Guys back on topic of new GS vs new ES and off the personal commentary and sweeping stereotype statements please.
02-25-12, 07:06 AM
#30
Is that so, then I guess BMW copied the LS taill lights. And the new 5 tails is a copy of the old gen G35. I guess Audi copied Led Drl since the 3GS had them in Japanese market.