SW17LS

The Sonata doesn't cost $20k. Its much closer to the Camry in price, but still cheaper obviously. I'd never even consider a Camry over a Sonata personally, Sonata is a much nicer car IMHO.

Like we said elsewhere in this thread, success is not necessarily defined by being #1 or even #2 or #3 in sales. Hyundai is in a building phase, they've seen enormous success over the past 5 years. You're not going to outsell the mainstream sedan offering from the world's biggest automaker overnight. But, I guarantee you Hyundai is threat #1 to Toyota.

I can't think of one vehicle Toyota sells, where Hyundai sells a competitor where I would buy the Toyota. I suppose I would buy a Highlander over a Veracruz, but thats it. You should check em out.

peteharvey

You're right that Toyota should respect Hyundai, and that Hyundai is a very real threat to Toyota and their number 1 position.

Mr Burns is right, despite the Camry costing more than the Sonata, the Camry outsells the Sonata nearly 2 to 1.
Very clever of Mr Burns to point out too that most of the sales of the Genesis actually belongs to the coupe with a significantly lower entry price of just $24.5k versus the sedan's entry price of $34k, and he says the sedan's sales may only account for 30-40% of total Genesis sales.

But, you're right. Toyota should treat Hyundai as a threat. I like that attitude.
I prefer this attitude, over complacency.

As for success, it means many things to many people.
Sales comparisons are only pertinent if the same type and category of cars are compared.
However, by and large, if we go to a Lexus or Hyundai board meeting, or a dealership monthly meeting, no one's going to tell us that they want the 4GS or the Hyundai Equus to drop down to 500 units a month in the USA.
Sales volume is required by the manufacturers and dealers to earn a living.
This money is also required to be reinvested back into R&D to engineer our next generation of cars.
Poor performance here, and Lexus will end up alongside Saab.
Look at poor old Sony - they've been in the red for at least several years!
Even Samsung understands what it is like to overtake Nokia, to become the biggest selling mobile phone manufacturer in the world.
I'm sure Hyundai knows where they stand...

SW17LS

American consumers, especially in that particular class where they aren't enthusiasts and a car is a really a "driving appliance" tend to purchase the same car over and over again, its a safe choice, they know what they're getting, etc. Its incredibly hard to break into that sect of buyers, but its happening. I see new Sonatas everywhere, and Hyundai's brand loyalty was the highest in the industry last year believe it or not, so they are slowly winning buyers and keeping those buyers.

I always like the underdog, Hyundai is working hard trying to dispel bad reputation and build high quality products for less money. Toyota on the other hand is trying to hold onto the top position, I think all you have to do is look at the cheap look and feel of the Toyota products nowadays (seriously, I am a longtime Toyota/Lexus owner and I would not buy a Toyota right now, the cars are just crummy IMHO), while Hyundai is building stylish, high quality cars at every price point...for less money.

I'm sure they're overjoyed. They're getting great press, market share is increasing, reviews come back excellent, they're rising in quality and dependability studies...blue sky for Hyundai.

Now, Toyota is coming off a couple year run of TERRIBLE press, recalls, people dying, lawsuits, loosing their top sales spot albeit because of the tsunami. Dark clouds for Toyota.

Mark my words...10 years from now the situation between the two will be quite different. Its already incredibly different from how it was 5 years ago.
You just fundamentally don't understand the auto industry. The Equus and GS are not volume cars, especially the Equus. I think they would be over the moon of the Equus would sell 500 units a month. The GS thats another story.

Niether car is a volume car, people aren't making their livings off selling these cars. For Lexus the ES & RX and to a lesser extent the LS keep the doors open, for Hyundai its the Sonata and the economy cars. The enthusiast cars and high end cars promote the brand's image and act as a showcase for new technologies.

LexFather

Getting back to sales again lol the GS is meeting/exceeding sales goals and currently at 2k a month on target and the solid 3rd place seller in class.

For comparison the M37/56 is only 2 years young, never met sales targets with sales plummeting to under 1000 units many months, even with a superb V-8. Dealers call it the Q45 all over again as the model doesn't sell. Now the A6 is outselling it.

So Lexus so far is doing very well with the GS. Sales IMO will stay solid for summer with a big Nov/Dec with the yearly aggressive "December to remember" sales event.

peteharvey

Your attitude that Hyundai would be "over the moon" selling 500 Equus a month is possible, but highly improbable.
You never know, it is possible that Hyundai may be thinking along your lines.
Anything is possible.

However, Rominl's Post #95 [below] is far more probable and realistic, and this is the more intelligent and constructive attitude that is far more likely to be going through the minds of manufacturers and dealers.
His attitude is that they want the greater volumes, but they are "well aware that their position isn't enough for that"...


https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-sonata-7.html

rominl

iTrader: (4)

and just to re-iterate, from a company business point of view, lexus is laughing big time with their es sales (and profit). they should have the gs to compete with 5 and e, but they position themselves differently

MelYW

It seems that at least the 5 is a main target?

BMW like interior styling
Pricing in the range (maybe a titch lower) as 5
Size similar to 5
Redesigned to have a better (ultimate?) "driver's experience"...classic BMW position

Not sure I understand how the positioning is that different?

Interesting that I spotted a new GS for the first time this past FRI here in the Twin Cities. The length of time it has taken to see it on the road surprised me.

peteharvey

I think Lexus is cruising along quite nicely in the mid luxury market, with combined sales of the ES and GS.
Even the RX could be combined with the ES and GS too, just like combined sales of the E Class and M Class.
Lexus is cruising along nicely.

If Lexus actually wants to "white wash" the mid-luxury market with a landslide, then that's something quite different, and they'll have to work a lot harder for that...

SW17LS

You don't get it, and continuing to beat the point doesn't make any sense. The Equus is not a volume car. They don't even stock them at dealers, and arrange test drives and complete purchases at the customer's home or place of business. Its a car that shows what Hyundai CAN build, and the service they CAN deliver moreso than its a car that is meant to be a volume car.

Of course they want greater volume. I would like to make $10M a year, just because I don't doesn't mean I'm not successful.

Mr. Burns

What they did was take apart a Lexus LS460 and built their own version. To truly be successful in the large luxury segment you need to be innovative. Be it in design, technology, or quality. Innovation costs money. An S-class sells for north of $90k in the US, and consistently outsells all of its less expensive competition. It's why with every generation of S-class Mercedes is able to innovate further and further. Hyundai and innovation don't really go together. The way Hyundai manages to get its rock bottom prices is by taking stuff others have done. For the Equus to truly be innovative it would mean a higher price point, at which it would compete with cars with higher cachet. However if it's not your flagship that's bringing in industry first technologies that trickle down to the rest of your and others' lineup, then it's not much of a flagship. It's a wannabe budget luxury car.

SW17LS

But isn't that how Lexus got started? They reverse engineered a Mercedes, made it better, for less money. They didn't start out really innovating anything.

Sounds an awful lot like the 1989 luxury startup division of Toyota that late night comedians had material making fun of for months after it came out. Look how far they've come. I read that exact same sentence written about the LS in EVERY publication when it came out.

Like I said, give them time. Bear in mind they have gone from building economy cars that were an absolute joke to having a vehicle that is mentioned alongside the LS, 7 series, S class, in about 5 years. I think unfortunately we're never going to really be able to see what they could do in the luxury market because they cheaped out and didn't invest in the marque and dealer network the way Lexus did. I think that will, more than anything keep them from success in the US. But, I think they're on their way to being a game changer in the mainstream marketplace.

peteharvey

I understand what you mean.
The Hyundai Equus is not a volume car in the $20-30k class of the Camry and Sonata.
However, the Equus must be able to compete with its peers in the $60k segment of the market.
Does anyone have actual monthly sales figures for the Equus?
All I know is that it doesn't make it into the Monthly Top 20.
It would be interesting to see what volume the $60k Equus sells?

We must treat competition and sales of the Equus seriously.
The Equus needs to sell in at least adequate volume for both the manufacturers and the dealers to remain viable.
Failure for the Equus to sell in adequate volume means Hyundai may end up like Saab, Sony and Kodak.
Sony was not cautious, so Samsung ate Sony up!!!
Samsung now makes billions of dollars of profits per year, while Sony make hundreds of millions in losses per year.

If Toyota fools around condescendingly with Hyundai, the same will happen to Toyota.
The Equus isn't just there to be subsidised by Sonata sales.
The Equus must make a decent amount of profit on its own to remain viable.
If we think that the Equus is some sort of pet project that is entirely subsidised by Sonata bread and butter sales, then we are making a big mistake - only to end up amongst Saab, Sony and Kodak...

peteharvey

Also, competition increase over time.
Such that Hyundai will find it much more difficult to do to Toyota, what Toyota and Lexus has done to the Germans.
In turn, the Chinese and Indians will find it much more difficult to do to Koreans, what Hyundai has achieved against Toyota.
It's not as easy as pulling apart a Lexus LS and reverse engineering.
Life is getting harder and harder...

rominl

iTrader: (4)

like i said, lexus is targeting and chasing the 5 and e, that's clear. but they know very well, and the way they are doing it, they are not chasing the same kind of sales numbers. two VERY different things

although to me, i still think es and rx are a little step below e/5 and x5/ml

SW17LS

No it doesn't! The dealers and manufacturer have a dozen other models that keep them viable. A dealership can never sell one Equus unit (not all dealers are even authorized to sell them) and be just fine. If the Equus experiment ultimately fails, then it fails. Hyundai will go on. Volkswagen couldn't sell a very capable $70k sedan in the US. They still make it and its popular overseas. Same will be true of the Equus, big cars like that are very popular in Korea and China.

You seem to think that a company and dealership's survival hinges on the sales of just one model in one market and thats not the case, having a diverse model range and selling in diverse markets protects them from that.

Equus is not a key profit vehicle, and neither is the GS...although to a lesser extent.

Failure of one model is not going to ruin Hyundai. Saab suffered from a failure to compete across their entire model line. Bear in mind Hyundai is also an enormous company with huge sales overseas, in Korea, that makes products that aren't even Automobiles. Could not be more different than Saab. I mean, look at all the models that have come and gone without success in the Toyota lineup over the years, and in the Lexus lineup, Saab was a small niche automaker...these are huge mainstream automakers.

And you can't compare the auto industry and the electronics industry. Doesn't get much more different than that.