So much for predictions of the 4GS being a flop
06-10-12, 11:17 PM
#166
No it doesn't! The dealers and manufacturer have a dozen other models that keep them viable. A dealership can never sell one Equus unit (not all dealers are even authorized to sell them) and be just fine. If the Equus experiment ultimately fails, then it fails. Hyundai will go on. Volkswagen couldn't sell a very capable $70k sedan in the US. They still make it and its popular overseas. Same will be true of the Equus, big cars like that are very popular in Korea and China.
You seem to think that a company and dealership's survival hinges on the sales of just one model in one market and thats not the case, having a diverse model range and selling in diverse markets protects them from that.
Equus is not a key profit vehicle, and neither is the GS...although to a lesser extent.
Failure of one model is not going to ruin Hyundai. Saab suffered from a failure to compete across their entire model line. Bear in mind Hyundai is also an enormous company with huge sales overseas, in Korea, that makes products that aren't even Automobiles. Could not be more different than Saab. I mean, look at all the models that have come and gone without success in the Toyota lineup over the years, and in the Lexus lineup, Saab was a small niche automaker...these are huge mainstream automakers.
And you can't compare the auto industry and the electronics industry. Doesn't get much more different than that.
You seem to think that a company and dealership's survival hinges on the sales of just one model in one market and thats not the case, having a diverse model range and selling in diverse markets protects them from that.
Equus is not a key profit vehicle, and neither is the GS...although to a lesser extent.
Failure of one model is not going to ruin Hyundai. Saab suffered from a failure to compete across their entire model line. Bear in mind Hyundai is also an enormous company with huge sales overseas, in Korea, that makes products that aren't even Automobiles. Could not be more different than Saab. I mean, look at all the models that have come and gone without success in the Toyota lineup over the years, and in the Lexus lineup, Saab was a small niche automaker...these are huge mainstream automakers.
And you can't compare the auto industry and the electronics industry. Doesn't get much more different than that.
Failure to meet its budget will result in heavy losses to the company.
Every car has a target number.
If the Equus fails to meet its target, it will be axed just like the Lexus HS.
Thus, we must treat numbers seriously; the bean counters do...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-10-12 at 11:23 PM.
06-10-12, 11:33 PM
#167
Moreover, how much do you think it costs to engineer and manufacture a V8 powered RWD car?
Do you think a company would spend this amount of money just on marketing?
Also, does that marketing actually work?
What if that marketing ploy depicts Hyundai as a maker of third rate vehicles amongst its luxury peers?
Then this would have the reverse effect of dragging Hyundai down.
Could this be why a Sonata similarly priced to a Camry, sells at almost half the Camry's volume?
Hyundai is effectively making half the money on the Sonata alone.
Then, we must subtract away the money required to engineer and manufacture the Equus.
Of course, we must factor in that Korean labor rates are cheaper.
So in the end, only the bean counters know how much they are making, and what targets are required.
That's why manufacturers and dealers have to take numbers seriously; there's no fooling around with fancy "pet projects", only to end up like Saab, Sony and Kodak.
Regarding the Hyundai Equus, the bean counters will have a definite target for this car.
Only the bean counters know the specifics.
It is possible, but highly unlikely that the Equus would be able to survive selling one unit per month in North America.
It is possible, but it is highly unlikely that the Hyundai Equus is a free pet project, financed by sales of Sonatas.
Such a project is too expensive...
Do you think a company would spend this amount of money just on marketing?
Also, does that marketing actually work?
What if that marketing ploy depicts Hyundai as a maker of third rate vehicles amongst its luxury peers?
Then this would have the reverse effect of dragging Hyundai down.
Could this be why a Sonata similarly priced to a Camry, sells at almost half the Camry's volume?
Hyundai is effectively making half the money on the Sonata alone.
Then, we must subtract away the money required to engineer and manufacture the Equus.
Of course, we must factor in that Korean labor rates are cheaper.
So in the end, only the bean counters know how much they are making, and what targets are required.
That's why manufacturers and dealers have to take numbers seriously; there's no fooling around with fancy "pet projects", only to end up like Saab, Sony and Kodak.
Regarding the Hyundai Equus, the bean counters will have a definite target for this car.
Only the bean counters know the specifics.
It is possible, but highly unlikely that the Equus would be able to survive selling one unit per month in North America.
It is possible, but it is highly unlikely that the Hyundai Equus is a free pet project, financed by sales of Sonatas.
Such a project is too expensive...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-10-12 at 11:45 PM.
06-10-12, 11:58 PM
#168
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Back to the topic of tracking car sales figures ; I found this website very useful. Not sure how accurate it is though :
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/
Specifically, it breaks down car sales figures by segments. The one I'm interested in is the mid-size luxury car :
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/search/...?max-results=5
Like I said, I think it is very telling that combined GS+ES sales are very similar, month on month, to 5 series and E-Class sales...
The implication is that no matter how successful the GS becomes sales-wise, or how much it improves in intrinsic quality and value for money vis-a-vis BMW 5/MB E, it will never fully realize its full sales potential as long as the ES is around to steal sales from it.
Conversely, put it another way, if hypothetically, BMW and MB were to offer a FWD version of the 5 series and E-class, lop off $10-15,000 off the asking price, I'm pretty sure the sales breakdown would be 3/4 to 2/3 FWD vs 1/3 to 1/4 RWD , same as the GS/ES sales breakdown currently.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/
Specifically, it breaks down car sales figures by segments. The one I'm interested in is the mid-size luxury car :
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/search/...?max-results=5
Like I said, I think it is very telling that combined GS+ES sales are very similar, month on month, to 5 series and E-Class sales...
The implication is that no matter how successful the GS becomes sales-wise, or how much it improves in intrinsic quality and value for money vis-a-vis BMW 5/MB E, it will never fully realize its full sales potential as long as the ES is around to steal sales from it.
Conversely, put it another way, if hypothetically, BMW and MB were to offer a FWD version of the 5 series and E-class, lop off $10-15,000 off the asking price, I'm pretty sure the sales breakdown would be 3/4 to 2/3 FWD vs 1/3 to 1/4 RWD , same as the GS/ES sales breakdown currently.
Last edited by natnut; 06-11-12 at 01:07 AM.
06-11-12, 12:17 AM
#169
If someone could provide monthly sales figures for the Lexus LS, then we could estimate if the Hyundai Equus @ 351 units/month is a flop or not?
It seems that the Acura RL may be a flop at 50 units/mth?
However, it's not that easy to say, because the Acura RL is extremely long in the tooth.
The new 4GS is certainly NOT a flop at 2k/mth, and that's not including sales of the ES either.
We should always remember that the old 2005-12 3GS sales fell markedly after several years because the previous generation 2007-12 5ES was a superbly styled and spacious motor car, that was a strong challenger to Lexus own 3GS.
The old 2007-12 5ES's 5 year model cycle also benefited the ES a lot more than the long ageing 7 year model life of the 2005-12 3GS...
It seems that the Acura RL may be a flop at 50 units/mth?
However, it's not that easy to say, because the Acura RL is extremely long in the tooth.
The new 4GS is certainly NOT a flop at 2k/mth, and that's not including sales of the ES either.
We should always remember that the old 2005-12 3GS sales fell markedly after several years because the previous generation 2007-12 5ES was a superbly styled and spacious motor car, that was a strong challenger to Lexus own 3GS.
The old 2007-12 5ES's 5 year model cycle also benefited the ES a lot more than the long ageing 7 year model life of the 2005-12 3GS...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-11-12 at 01:02 AM.
06-11-12, 01:06 AM
#170
Pole Position
Thread Starter
the link I provided also has the Equus monthly sales numbers.
06-11-12, 02:38 AM
#171
Thanx for the links Nat.
The links show where Mr Burns could be getting his data from.
We've already seen that the Camry and Sonata are almost the same price, but the Camry sells almost double.
Thus the Sonata may not exactly be a flop, but it can't be doing that well either.
Timothy Cain estimates that because 33% of Canadian Genesis sales are sedans, Hyundai probably only sold about 1260 Genesis sedans in May in the USA.
The Genesis sedan is only $34k, yet sells at almost half the rate of the GS, and a fraction the rate of the ES.
Thus, the Genesis sedan may not necessarily be a flop, but if I were CEO of Hyundai, I don't think the Genesis sedan is doing that well either.
The links provided above, also leads to another link for the sales of large luxury sedans.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...2012.html#more
The Lexus LS starts at some $67k+, yet it has amassed 438 units in April.
Meanwhile, in May, the Hyundai Equus @ $60k has amassed only 351 units.
Theoretically, at the Equus' $60k price, the Equus should be outselling the much more expensive Lexus LS.
The Equus should theoretically be selling 500 units per month.
Thus, once again, the Equus isn't exactly a flop, but it's not doing that exceptionally well either.
The Lexus RX at 100k units per month is an exceptional performer, amongst its German peers.
Yet there are presently no Hyundai equivalents that have achieved as equally well relative to their Japanese counterparts.
Hyundai still has some way to go just to match the Japs, let alone the Germans.
But then Hyundai's performance can be viewed as magnificent, compared to anything the Chinese and Indians can dish out...
The links show where Mr Burns could be getting his data from.
We've already seen that the Camry and Sonata are almost the same price, but the Camry sells almost double.
Thus the Sonata may not exactly be a flop, but it can't be doing that well either.
Timothy Cain estimates that because 33% of Canadian Genesis sales are sedans, Hyundai probably only sold about 1260 Genesis sedans in May in the USA.
The Genesis sedan is only $34k, yet sells at almost half the rate of the GS, and a fraction the rate of the ES.
Thus, the Genesis sedan may not necessarily be a flop, but if I were CEO of Hyundai, I don't think the Genesis sedan is doing that well either.
The links provided above, also leads to another link for the sales of large luxury sedans.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...2012.html#more
The Lexus LS starts at some $67k+, yet it has amassed 438 units in April.
Meanwhile, in May, the Hyundai Equus @ $60k has amassed only 351 units.
Theoretically, at the Equus' $60k price, the Equus should be outselling the much more expensive Lexus LS.
The Equus should theoretically be selling 500 units per month.
Thus, once again, the Equus isn't exactly a flop, but it's not doing that exceptionally well either.
The Lexus RX at 100k units per month is an exceptional performer, amongst its German peers.
Yet there are presently no Hyundai equivalents that have achieved as equally well relative to their Japanese counterparts.
Hyundai still has some way to go just to match the Japs, let alone the Germans.
But then Hyundai's performance can be viewed as magnificent, compared to anything the Chinese and Indians can dish out...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-11-12 at 02:41 AM.
06-11-12, 04:15 AM
#173
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I get the feeling that an engine and drivetrain update is just around the corner (within 1-2 years). Afterall, the current engine and drivetrain is about 6 years old. It's a credit to the GS chassis that it's not only competitive with the newer German engines/drivetrains but actually outperforms most of them.
06-11-12, 05:36 AM
#174
Guest
Posts: n/a
That chart is all wrong. It's including much cheaper cars based on size and. Not price. The TL, ES, MKZ etc are entry level but happen to be huge for their class. Genesis sales include coupes
Does anyone actually read or people just want to post whatever point they are trying to make? The Equus had a sales goal of 2000-3000 a year and they met it. It has to be considered a success especially when Lincoln, acura, infintiit, cadillac etc don't even offer a car in that class and they are "luxury" brands.
The LS is old as hell. In 2006 they were selling 2000-3000 LS models a month as many as the Equus in a year. Don't just compare today you have to look at LS sales throughout its life cycle.
Does anyone actually read or people just want to post whatever point they are trying to make? The Equus had a sales goal of 2000-3000 a year and they met it. It has to be considered a success especially when Lincoln, acura, infintiit, cadillac etc don't even offer a car in that class and they are "luxury" brands.
The LS is old as hell. In 2006 they were selling 2000-3000 LS models a month as many as the Equus in a year. Don't just compare today you have to look at LS sales throughout its life cycle.
06-11-12, 05:43 AM
#175
Guest
Posts: n/a
But isn't that how Lexus got started? They reverse engineered a Mercedes, made it better, for less money. They didn't start out really innovating anything.
Sounds an awful lot like the 1989 luxury startup division of Toyota that late night comedians had material making fun of for months after it came out. Look how far they've come. I read that exact same sentence written about the LS in EVERY publication when it came out.
Like I said, give them time. Bear in mind they have gone from building economy cars that were an absolute joke to having a vehicle that is mentioned alongside the LS, 7 series, S class, in about 5 years. I think unfortunately we're never going to really be able to see what they could do in the luxury market because they cheaped out and didn't invest in the marque and dealer network the way Lexus did. I think that will, more than anything keep them from success in the US. But, I think they're on their way to being a game changer in the mainstream marketplace.
Sounds an awful lot like the 1989 luxury startup division of Toyota that late night comedians had material making fun of for months after it came out. Look how far they've come. I read that exact same sentence written about the LS in EVERY publication when it came out.
Like I said, give them time. Bear in mind they have gone from building economy cars that were an absolute joke to having a vehicle that is mentioned alongside the LS, 7 series, S class, in about 5 years. I think unfortunately we're never going to really be able to see what they could do in the luxury market because they cheaped out and didn't invest in the marque and dealer network the way Lexus did. I think that will, more than anything keep them from success in the US. But, I think they're on their way to being a game changer in the mainstream marketplace.
It is nothing like 1989, not remotely close.
06-11-12, 06:20 AM
#176
Lexus Fanatic
We've already seen that the Camry and Sonata are almost the same price, but the Camry sells almost double.
Thus the Sonata may not exactly be a flop, but it can't be doing that well either.
Thus the Sonata may not exactly be a flop, but it can't be doing that well either.
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Does anyone actually read or people just want to post whatever point they are trying to make? The Equus had a sales goal of 2000-3000 a year and they met it. It has to be considered a success especially when Lincoln, acura, infintiit, cadillac etc don't even offer a car in that class and they are "luxury" brands.
The LS is old as hell. In 2006 they were selling 2000-3000 LS models a month as many as the Equus in a year. Don't just compare today you have to look at LS sales throughout its life cycle.
The LS is old as hell. In 2006 they were selling 2000-3000 LS models a month as many as the Equus in a year. Don't just compare today you have to look at LS sales throughout its life cycle.
Not even close. Over 1 billion dollars was spent on the LS program in the 1980s, an unheard of amount for a new car. Lexus wisely of course aimed for the best cars at the time and exceeded them at all levels outside of prestige. The original LS is one of the greatest cars ever and completely changed the luxury landscape. The Equus simply is their entry into the field, it brought not one new innovation nor did it change the luxury market.
I think the fact that we even mention Hyundai in the same sentence as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes is the proof that they have changed the luxury market. They've brought mainstream upscale. They've created a platform where Hyundai, Buick, Chrysler, Jeep, Ford, etc can compete with the luxury brands. You've got people cross shopping Tauruses, Genesis, 300s, Grand Cherokees, Equus, Lacrosses with vehicles from Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Lincoln, Cadillac, Land Rover, etc. Thats something that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.
Last edited by SW17LS; 06-11-12 at 06:27 AM.
06-11-12, 07:18 AM
#177
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Not even close. Over 1 billion dollars was spent on the LS program in the 1980s, an unheard of amount for a new car. Lexus wisely of course aimed for the best cars at the time and exceeded them at all levels outside of prestige. The original LS is one of the greatest cars ever and completely changed the luxury landscape. The Equus simply is their entry into the field, it brought not one new innovation nor did it change the luxury market.
It is nothing like 1989, not remotely close.
It is nothing like 1989, not remotely close.
06-11-12, 11:42 AM
#178
Thats what you're not hearing us say...the car HAS met its numbers, its target numbers are nowhere near the target numbers of the LS.
LOL, you don't get it. Sonata sales have increased exponentially over the past 5-6 years. You don't overtake or even match the sales of one of the country's best selling cars across all categories overnight. The fact that they have taken what market share they have away from Toyota and the Camry is the proof that they're doing great....
While I agree more money was invested in the LS project, and overall the project was more intensive and more successful, I don't see how you can't draw parallels.
I think the fact that we even mention Hyundai in the same sentence as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes is the proof that they have changed the luxury market. They've brought mainstream upscale. They've created a platform where Hyundai, Buick, Chrysler, Jeep, Ford, etc can compete with the luxury brands. You've got people cross shopping Tauruses, Genesis, 300s, Grand Cherokees, Equus, Lacrosses with vehicles from Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Lincoln, Cadillac, Land Rover, etc. Thats something that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.
LOL, you don't get it. Sonata sales have increased exponentially over the past 5-6 years. You don't overtake or even match the sales of one of the country's best selling cars across all categories overnight. The fact that they have taken what market share they have away from Toyota and the Camry is the proof that they're doing great....
While I agree more money was invested in the LS project, and overall the project was more intensive and more successful, I don't see how you can't draw parallels.
I think the fact that we even mention Hyundai in the same sentence as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes is the proof that they have changed the luxury market. They've brought mainstream upscale. They've created a platform where Hyundai, Buick, Chrysler, Jeep, Ford, etc can compete with the luxury brands. You've got people cross shopping Tauruses, Genesis, 300s, Grand Cherokees, Equus, Lacrosses with vehicles from Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Lincoln, Cadillac, Land Rover, etc. Thats something that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.
May be the Equus is a flop afterall?
You are content with setting yourself a very very low target, so you can give yourself a pat on the back? Enjoy.
Of course the manufacturer would set themselves an extraordinarily low target to avoid embarrassment.
You know why the Equus is selling so poorly? Look no further than the quality of the product...
06-11-12, 12:45 PM
#179
...
LOL, you don't get it. Sonata sales have increased exponentially over the past 5-6 years. You don't overtake or even match the sales of one of the country's best selling cars across all categories overnight. The fact that they have taken what market share they have away from Toyota and the Camry is the proof that they're doing great....
LOL, you don't get it. Sonata sales have increased exponentially over the past 5-6 years. You don't overtake or even match the sales of one of the country's best selling cars across all categories overnight. The fact that they have taken what market share they have away from Toyota and the Camry is the proof that they're doing great....
The Sonata was first available internationally from 1988 onwards.
Remember back in 1988? The Sonata was actually 1 size bigger than the Camry.
The Sonata was a midsize car with a 3.0 V6.
The Camry was a compact with a 2.5 V6.
That the Sonata has been around for that length of time, only 1k cheaper than a Camry, and sells at almost half the rate of a Camry, is a bit of a disappointment.
In the next 5-10 years, I'm not sure if things will get any easier for the Sonata...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-11-12 at 12:54 PM.
06-11-12, 01:11 PM
#180
Lexus Fanatic
You are content with setting yourself a very very low target, so you can give yourself a pat on the back? Enjoy.
You know why the Equus is selling so poorly? Look no further than the quality of the product...
Hyundai has actually been around for a long time; longer than Lexus.
The Sonata was first available internationally from 1988 onwards...
...That the Sonata has been around for that length of time, only 1k cheaper than a Camry, and sells at almost half the rate of a Camry, is a bit of a disappointment.
In the next 5-10 years, I'm not sure if things will get any easier for the Sonata...
The Sonata was first available internationally from 1988 onwards...
...That the Sonata has been around for that length of time, only 1k cheaper than a Camry, and sells at almost half the rate of a Camry, is a bit of a disappointment.
In the next 5-10 years, I'm not sure if things will get any easier for the Sonata...
I know that Hyundai has been around a long time. But about the middle of the last decade they began improving the quality of their products, offering a great warranty, and really building some compelling cars. The story is that resurgance, not what Hyundai may have been 20-30 years ago. Since the mid-late 2000s, Hyundai has really been doing well...sales are way up...quality figures are way up...brand loyalty is way up. Read some comparison tests, go drive the cars for yourself.
In the 70s Toyota sold only economy cars, and very lowly regarded economy cars at that, but all of that has changed. Same sort of thing is going on with Hyundai.
Last edited by SW17LS; 06-11-12 at 01:16 PM.