So much for predictions of the 4GS being a flop
06-03-12, 10:51 PM
#106
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I agree with PeteHarvey that the ES is probably cannibalizing GS sales. Especially when they both wear the same badge and the ES is more spacious and cheaper than the GS.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
Last edited by natnut; 06-04-12 at 01:59 AM.
06-04-12, 04:42 AM
#107
I agree with PeteHarvey that the ES is probably cannibalizing GS sales. Especially when they both wear the same badge and the ES is more spacious and cheaper than the GS.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
I partially agree with PeteHarvey but I see the ES and GS differently. Front wheel drive vs rear. Family hauler vs sport sedan. Grocery getter vs cruize machine. I just think Lexus needs to do more to seperate them.
06-04-12, 05:16 AM
#108
Lead Lap
Lexus will never cancel the ES. Period. The GS would get cancelled before the ES does.
06-04-12, 05:35 AM
#109
Me thinks Lexus should keep both the entry level luxury ES, and the more premium GS with direct injection, engine behind the front axle and RWD for a near 50:50 weight distribution, Al alloy complex multi-link suspension, and Al bonnet.
With the GS, me thinks they should focus primarily on the meat in the sandwich; the icing on top of the cake is secondary.
If we jump onto the icing on top of the cake, while the meat just isn't between the sandwich, then the GS will constantly be second rate, and suffer.
For example, like Rominl said in Post #92, despite the IS-F, IS sales are well behind the C Class and 3 Series.
Fundamentally, Lexus must address the rear space and the ride issue in the IS; the rear is too cosy, and it rides too firmly.
Once addressed, the next generation IS-F will be a ripper.
So, once the meat in the sandwich is there, by all means, follow that up with low roof line swoopy four door coupe [ala CLS/6 Series/A7 Sportsback], and an even lower and swoopier two door coupes, mated to V6 supercharged/twin turbos, V8's, and a flagship GS-F.
Both Lexus and the GS is potentially capable of conquering the midsize luxo market, if they put their heads down...
With the GS, me thinks they should focus primarily on the meat in the sandwich; the icing on top of the cake is secondary.
If we jump onto the icing on top of the cake, while the meat just isn't between the sandwich, then the GS will constantly be second rate, and suffer.
For example, like Rominl said in Post #92, despite the IS-F, IS sales are well behind the C Class and 3 Series.
Fundamentally, Lexus must address the rear space and the ride issue in the IS; the rear is too cosy, and it rides too firmly.
Once addressed, the next generation IS-F will be a ripper.
So, once the meat in the sandwich is there, by all means, follow that up with low roof line swoopy four door coupe [ala CLS/6 Series/A7 Sportsback], and an even lower and swoopier two door coupes, mated to V6 supercharged/twin turbos, V8's, and a flagship GS-F.
Both Lexus and the GS is potentially capable of conquering the midsize luxo market, if they put their heads down...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-04-12 at 06:05 AM.
06-04-12, 06:43 AM
#110
Completely agreed. Cutting off the best seller of the line will not ensure the sale increase of the other. People will just go with the other brand.
Last edited by NickL; 06-04-12 at 10:29 AM.
06-04-12, 11:33 AM
#112
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
What does concern me are salesman and dealerships who rather go for the easy sale in a white/beige leather ES instead of them trying to sell people the GS. It has sadly been my experience that Lexus salesman still for the most part are not enthusiasts of any time and are used to people just walking in and buying RX/ES models that they have a harder time actually "selling" the GS in this segment.
bmw and mercedes sales are not due to 'enthusiasts' either. most buy for the brand image and have no idea whether the car is good or not.
If the dealers don't push the GS then ultimately it will hurt the vehicle.
IMO Lexus cannot wait on the GS-F, they should have debut the car next year just as BMW debuts the M5 the year after the GS. If Cadillac can make a CTS-V there is no reason Lexus should not have a GS F.
If they plan to just have the GS be sold another 7 years with no significant updates the car will sell like crap at the end again.
The main problems with Lexus and the GS is the lack of customization during the order process. I want an FSport RWD - dealer looks at me like I'm from Mars? You want red interior on your Fsport in NY - haha goodluck finding that car. Most dealers get 2-3 Fsports per month. All this publicity by Lexus is pretty much going to waste IMO bec all they have at the dealer are boring AWD GS cars in silver or black. 
06-04-12, 05:31 PM
#113
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I live in Charlotte and had to go all the way to Jacksonville FL to get my black F Sport with Cabernet interior. The dealer in Charlotte tried for a couple of months but could not get the style that I wanted. I bought it over the phone on the day that it arrived at the Jacksonville dealer. I've since read a Road & Track article comparing the GS with the A6, 535 and M37. (all of which I looked at). They came to the same conclusion as I did, the GS offers the best balance of performance and luxury, For R&T to rate anything better than a BMW is HUGE. Lexus put it all on the line with the 4G and I think can safely say, they made the right bet.
06-04-12, 10:54 PM
#115
Lexus Fanatic
I agree with PeteHarvey that the ES is probably cannibalizing GS sales. Especially when they both wear the same badge and the ES is more spacious and cheaper than the GS.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
BUT, I think theres some truth to this. If you look around at the people you see in these cars, I know a lot of people who own 5 Series and E Classes that don't care at all about their performance or handling/sporty nature. They wanted a BMW...or they wanted a Mercedes...and they wanted a midsized car...so that negated the C or 3. So...they buy a 5 or E. You don't see these people in the GS, you see them in the ES. So, you have a lot of people running around in E Class or 5 Series BMWs that are way more car than they need or even want.
For instance, if I bought a Mercedes or BMW, it would have to be an E or 5 because the C and 3 are too small for me. Which is one thing I've always really liked about the ES, you get an E or 5 sized car for C or 3 money.
But...like you said it'll never happen.
06-05-12, 12:28 AM
#116
...BUT, I think theres some truth to this. If you look around at the people you see in these cars, I know a lot of people who own 5 Series and E Classes that don't care at all about their performance or handling/sporty nature. They wanted a BMW...or they wanted a Mercedes...and they wanted a midsized car...so that negated the C or 3. So...they buy a 5 or E. You don't see these people in the GS, you see them in the ES. So, you have a lot of people running around in E Class or 5 Series BMWs that are way more car than they need or even want.
For instance, if I bought a Mercedes or BMW, it would have to be an E or 5 because the C and 3 are too small for me. Which is one thing I've always really liked about the ES, you get an E or 5 sized car for C or 3 money...
For instance, if I bought a Mercedes or BMW, it would have to be an E or 5 because the C and 3 are too small for me. Which is one thing I've always really liked about the ES, you get an E or 5 sized car for C or 3 money...
When someone doesn't know much about something, they always purchase brand names.
In other words, names with a reputation.
What we must understand is that the name, and hence the reputation itself, arose from a product of quality in the first place.
In other words, a product of great quality, creates a name for itself.
Benzes and Beamers are quality products that have created a name for themselves, hence consumers with little expert knowledge often go for the name.
However, isn't the new 4GS a great quality product - creating a great name for itself?
Yes, and no.
In a way, the new 4GS is a great quality product, with an alround great engine, great chassis, and top notch reliability.
However, at the same time, many have questioned the rear end styling.
Very few have commented negatively on the 4GS new interior, however this is also an area that could do with improvement.
The 4GS dash could have both a simpler and smoother, more flowing shape like the new 6 Series.
It doesn't cost more money to manufacture a more stylishly shaped dashboard?
There is also the new 4GS rear space, which is still obviously a little smaller than the Germans, especially in rear foot room.
The peakiness of the 3GS and 4GS engine means the bottom end torque could do with improvement too.
When we are trying to win, we can't afford to have potential customers question the styling inside and out, nor start saying things about the rear lacking foot room, or start saying that it lacks bottom end poke.
We can't afford that if we are trying to achieve market supremacy.
These four major factors actually work against the new 4GS reputation and name.
That's why Lexus must go back to the drawing board, and improve the car itself.
Unfortunately, saying that the new 4GS has great mechanical prowess, with okay or somewhat questionable looks, is not good enough against the E Class and 5 Series.
Lexus must make sure that it is more flawless in form and function.
Once the car is truly good in both form and function, with less questionable styling, a few other small bits and pieces like more foot room, more bottom end torque, and less noise level under acceleration - then the next generation 5GS will automatically make a name for itself, commanding the market just like Lexus' own RX.
I encourage Lexus to style the dash similar to a 6 Series.
Note that the 4GS has just as good dashboard material as the 6 Series?
The new 4GS has nice red interiors too.
However, Lexus should learn from the "shape" of the 6 Series dash.
The styling is in the shape; there is so much style in this 6 Series!!!
The 6 Series is also so clean and simple in its style; this particular dash will age very well.
If the 4GS was styled like this, then it would really make a name for itself quickly, and sell equivalent to the top selling Lexus RX.
This is what the 4GS needs to make a name for itself, and sell like there's no tomorrow...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-05-12 at 01:36 AM.
06-05-12, 04:53 AM
#117
Regarding the ES vs GS debate, what Lexus needs to do is differentiate the cars more. The new GS is a good start, but as some of you recall my biggest complaint is that they kept the base hp the same, killed the V8 and left the 8 speed transmission out (I see the new RX-F gets the eight speed though).
Lexus is on the right track, but they are still not fully committed to what they are doing yet. That is why I am now driving a BMW 550 instead of the new GS.
Lexus is on the right track, but they are still not fully committed to what they are doing yet. That is why I am now driving a BMW 550 instead of the new GS.
06-05-12, 07:22 AM
#118
Guest
Posts: n/a
The scary thing is that maybe BMW got it right by "dumbing down" the 5 Series. Look at VW, who introduced the "bar of soap" Jetta and Passat built for obese Americans, and for less money, and they are selling more briskly than their predecessors. I think, with the exception of many of us in these forums, the tastes of drivers are changing. They would rather text and talk on their phones than truly drive, so the actual driving experience has become less meaningful to them. Maybe they are now just looking for cushy, and since they think they are buying the Ultimate Driving Machine becase of the brand they are also fooled into thinking that's as good as it gets.
When I was a kid, I was very involved in the buying decisions for our family's cars because I was a car nut at an earlier age. I saw a news story recently saying that teenagers are waiting to get their driver's licenses today because cars don't mean anything to them. They have the internet to connect with their friends, so it is not longer about being there with them. I also see the stories about tests on cars that drive themselves and think that maybe the sportiness of the new GS may be the last hurrah!
When I was a kid, I was very involved in the buying decisions for our family's cars because I was a car nut at an earlier age. I saw a news story recently saying that teenagers are waiting to get their driver's licenses today because cars don't mean anything to them. They have the internet to connect with their friends, so it is not longer about being there with them. I also see the stories about tests on cars that drive themselves and think that maybe the sportiness of the new GS may be the last hurrah!
. Most are not enthusiasts, want a nice car with the badge, the 5 series is perfect, the segment leader. No different than the 3, RX, Camry, Civic. No matter how good or bad people will purchase it. Last year an article in EVO mag summarized that tastes of luxury car buyers changed and BADGE means more today than in the past. Thus why people are happy with 4 cylinder luxury cars etc.
My lease is up on my 335i this month.......I have been shopping both the GS and 5 Series for the last 2 months. The lease price on the GS is MUCH LOWER than the 5 series, even the 528i. The 5 Series residuals are at 57% while GS is at 63-65%.
Point is the 5 Series is not outselling the GS because its cheaper to lease, because it definitely is not. And to buy the GS is even CHEAPER obviously.
The main problems with Lexus and the GS is the lack of customization during the order process. I want an FSport RWD - dealer looks at me like I'm from Mars? You want red interior on your Fsport in NY - haha goodluck finding that car. Most dealers get 2-3 Fsports per month. All this publicity by Lexus is pretty much going to waste IMO bec all they have at the dealer are boring AWD GS cars in silver or black.
Point is the 5 Series is not outselling the GS because its cheaper to lease, because it definitely is not. And to buy the GS is even CHEAPER obviously.
The main problems with Lexus and the GS is the lack of customization during the order process. I want an FSport RWD - dealer looks at me like I'm from Mars? You want red interior on your Fsport in NY - haha goodluck finding that car. Most dealers get 2-3 Fsports per month. All this publicity by Lexus is pretty much going to waste IMO bec all they have at the dealer are boring AWD GS cars in silver or black.
I agree with PeteHarvey that the ES is probably cannibalizing GS sales. Especially when they both wear the same badge and the ES is more spacious and cheaper than the GS.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
If one were to buy MB or BMW or Audi and shopping in the mid-size segment, they only have one choice : an E or 5 series or A6. Whether the buyer wants a boring DD or exciting canyon carver, he essentially gets one choice from that company.
Whereas Lexus has 2 cars in the mid-size segment : ES or GS. There is more differentiation : those who want the boring but luxurious people carrier option will get the ES, those who want 5 series beating dynamics will opt for the GS.
That partially explains why E/5 series sales are so much better than GS sales and roughly similar to combined ES+GS sales.
If Lexus were brave enough and willing to experience short-term pain in sales slumps, it would axe the ES completely and give potential Lexus owners one choice only : the GS. That would be an interesting experiment but I doubt it would ever happen.
Also with no V-8 GS and with the ES now gaining a hybrid there will be confusion with consumers with powertrains.
06-05-12, 07:37 AM
#119
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sometimes in sales threads I would add IS/ES/HS sales together just to see what the total amount was since they were all priced similar. While the 3 might not be tops in whatever sub-category they are in, together they were always #1 or #2 with the 3 series.
Me thinks Lexus should keep both the entry level luxury ES, and the more premium GS with direct injection, engine behind the front axle and RWD for a near 50:50 weight distribution, Al alloy complex multi-link suspension, and Al bonnet.
With the GS, me thinks they should focus primarily on the meat in the sandwich; the icing on top of the cake is secondary.
If we jump onto the icing on top of the cake, while the meat just isn't between the sandwich, then the GS will constantly be second rate, and suffer.
For example, like Rominl said in Post #92, despite the IS-F, IS sales are well behind the C Class and 3 Series.
Fundamentally, Lexus must address the rear space and the ride issue in the IS; the rear is too cosy, and it rides too firmly.
Once addressed, the next generation IS-F will be a ripper.
So, once the meat in the sandwich is there, by all means, follow that up with low roof line swoopy four door coupe [ala CLS/6 Series/A7 Sportsback], and an even lower and swoopier two door coupes, mated to V6 supercharged/twin turbos, V8's, and a flagship GS-F.
Both Lexus and the GS is potentially capable of conquering the midsize luxo market, if they put their heads down...
With the GS, me thinks they should focus primarily on the meat in the sandwich; the icing on top of the cake is secondary.
If we jump onto the icing on top of the cake, while the meat just isn't between the sandwich, then the GS will constantly be second rate, and suffer.
For example, like Rominl said in Post #92, despite the IS-F, IS sales are well behind the C Class and 3 Series.
Fundamentally, Lexus must address the rear space and the ride issue in the IS; the rear is too cosy, and it rides too firmly.
Once addressed, the next generation IS-F will be a ripper.
So, once the meat in the sandwich is there, by all means, follow that up with low roof line swoopy four door coupe [ala CLS/6 Series/A7 Sportsback], and an even lower and swoopier two door coupes, mated to V6 supercharged/twin turbos, V8's, and a flagship GS-F.
Both Lexus and the GS is potentially capable of conquering the midsize luxo market, if they put their heads down...
I agree that the GS needs a true halo model to separate it and truly make it the badass sport sedan in the lineup. 306 and 338hp is fine but not enough in this segment.
Considering how well the chassis is and all the great reviews, more power could really bring things to the next level.
there's nothing lexus-specific here. first off, salespeople have to eat. second, they're human, and most will take the path of least resistance. third, the market is what is is, and most people aren't enthusiasts. just like the boring camry sells well, might as well sell ES all day long than try to spend a lot of time convincing someone of the differences between it and a GS. if it was me, i'd sell whatever was easiest too!.
i don't see that as the dealer's job. that's lexus' job. and there's nothing particularly wrong with the 4gs sales level because lexus also offers the es. it has two similarly sized models to cover a wide variety of tastes. if it really wanted to sell a lot of gs it would need to drop the es (not happening) and offer more versions of gs. and a gsf or coupe is not going to add a lot of new sales which is probably why lexus won't do it.
The GS doesn't have the luxury of the 5 series or ES of being a volume model or one that sells every month regardless of how good/bad it is. The GS needs promotion and explanation on all levels why its a great purchase. 
I live in Charlotte and had to go all the way to Jacksonville FL to get my black F Sport with Cabernet interior. The dealer in Charlotte tried for a couple of months but could not get the style that I wanted. I bought it over the phone on the day that it arrived at the Jacksonville dealer. I've since read a Road & Track article comparing the GS with the A6, 535 and M37. (all of which I looked at). They came to the same conclusion as I did, the GS offers the best balance of performance and luxury, For R&T to rate anything better than a BMW is HUGE. Lexus put it all on the line with the 4G and I think can safely say, they made the right bet.
I'm obviously jumping into this at the end, and again obviously I'm an ES owner. I've thought hard about the GS each time I've bought one, but I always wind up in an ES. Maybe when my lease is up next summer it'll be different because I REALLY like the new GS...but probably not LOL
BUT, I think theres some truth to this. If you look around at the people you see in these cars, I know a lot of people who own 5 Series and E Classes that don't care at all about their performance or handling/sporty nature. They wanted a BMW...or they wanted a Mercedes...and they wanted a midsized car...so that negated the C or 3. So...they buy a 5 or E. You don't see these people in the GS, you see them in the ES. So, you have a lot of people running around in E Class or 5 Series BMWs that are way more car than they need or even want.
For instance, if I bought a Mercedes or BMW, it would have to be an E or 5 because the C and 3 are too small for me. Which is one thing I've always really liked about the ES, you get an E or 5 sized car for C or 3 money.
But...like you said it'll never happen.
BUT, I think theres some truth to this. If you look around at the people you see in these cars, I know a lot of people who own 5 Series and E Classes that don't care at all about their performance or handling/sporty nature. They wanted a BMW...or they wanted a Mercedes...and they wanted a midsized car...so that negated the C or 3. So...they buy a 5 or E. You don't see these people in the GS, you see them in the ES. So, you have a lot of people running around in E Class or 5 Series BMWs that are way more car than they need or even want.
For instance, if I bought a Mercedes or BMW, it would have to be an E or 5 because the C and 3 are too small for me. Which is one thing I've always really liked about the ES, you get an E or 5 sized car for C or 3 money.
But...like you said it'll never happen.
06-05-12, 07:39 AM
#120
Guest
Posts: n/a
I encourage Lexus to style the dash similar to a 6 Series.
Note that the 4GS has just as good dashboard material as the 6 Series?
The new 4GS has nice red interiors too.
However, Lexus should learn from the "shape" of the 6 Series dash.
The styling is in the shape; there is so much style in this 6 Series!!!
The 6 Series is also so clean and simple in its style; this particular dash will age very well.
If the 4GS was styled like this, then it would really make a name for itself quickly, and sell equivalent to the top selling Lexus RX.
This is what the 4GS needs to make a name for itself, and sell like there's no tomorrow...
BTW, you might want to say that BMW 6 series copied the RX dash. The BMW took the shape of the RX dash. And I've had the chance to inspect that 6 series GT, its very well done and costs 80k-100k.
