Is The 4th Gen GS THE Game Changer For Lexus?
04-24-12 | 06:35 PM
#31
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: CA
I love my BMWs, until they broke down. I spent so much money trying to keep my Bimmers running, I could buy another BMW. Even on some brand new BMWs the electrical gremlins show up all the time. I know because I looked all over the E36, E39, E60, E90 forums. It is a real love / hate relationship.
With the reliability reputation of Lexus, I really hope the 4 GS will be a love / love relationship.
When the BMW, MB, and Audi drivers found out there is a car that drives just as well and much more reliable, they will switch to Lexus. However, Rome was not built in one day. I see this as a slow but steady migration.
If the Europeans become as reliable as the Japanese and Japanese can perform like the Europeans, everybody wins. The magic of competitive Capitalism.
As for the V8, Lexus dropped it to save development cost and concentrated the money to do the new GS right. This is a brilliant decision consider it was on the copping block 2 years ago and the financial crisis all over the world. What will you do if you are a bit cash short as Lexus was? As the 4 GS build up the sales numbers, I am sure they will find the money to develop the V8 model or GS F or both as 2014 or 15 models. Remember BMW5 only comes in I6 engine in the old days? V8 was added much later.
It is not easy to run a company and each decision will be discussed and reviewed over and over again. I like what Toyota and Lexus are doing right now more than BMWs and MBs. i3 or A series anyone?
With the reliability reputation of Lexus, I really hope the 4 GS will be a love / love relationship.
When the BMW, MB, and Audi drivers found out there is a car that drives just as well and much more reliable, they will switch to Lexus. However, Rome was not built in one day. I see this as a slow but steady migration.
If the Europeans become as reliable as the Japanese and Japanese can perform like the Europeans, everybody wins. The magic of competitive Capitalism.
As for the V8, Lexus dropped it to save development cost and concentrated the money to do the new GS right. This is a brilliant decision consider it was on the copping block 2 years ago and the financial crisis all over the world. What will you do if you are a bit cash short as Lexus was? As the 4 GS build up the sales numbers, I am sure they will find the money to develop the V8 model or GS F or both as 2014 or 15 models. Remember BMW5 only comes in I6 engine in the old days? V8 was added much later.
It is not easy to run a company and each decision will be discussed and reviewed over and over again. I like what Toyota and Lexus are doing right now more than BMWs and MBs. i3 or A series anyone?
04-24-12 | 06:42 PM
#32
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,405
Likes: 497
From: Ca
Did you even read the press release for Lexus????? They only intended to sell 20k GS a year in the US and not mass market with discounts like BMW and Mercedes. So far they are doing 2,500 per month which is not bad. Its perfect. I do not want to have a car that I see at every corner of the damn town like the 5 and E. Too mundane. The GS is special.
Rex, one of the advantages of selling in exclusive numbers is that the 4GS will look special.
My old 3GS certainly looks special because apparently Lexus only sold about 2500 3GS last year in 2011 in the USA.
However, this defeats my point of making the 4GS or the future 5GS a truly better car, by sending a clear message to the R&D team in Japan to make the next 5GS a genuinely better styled, and therefore much better selling car!
While 2500 units/mth in the US sounds good initially, it rapidly decays in the forthcoming months and years, and in the end, GS sales haven't really changed at all.
In the end, this thread is all about game changing.
If I had to choose between the E350, 535i and GS350 right now, despite overall sales figures, I'd personally still choose the GS350 myself.
Coz the GS has the tallest and most comfortable rear seats, the most powerful and slickest engine of the three, the best handling ride combo, and the best reliability/longevity; that it is cheaper is a bonus.
The E350 has a coarse 3.5, and too softly suspended, plus reliability falls short of Lexus.
The 535i has the worst rear seats - low for more head room and a lower centre of gravity, but your knees end up pointing to the sky, and it is so hard to look over the driver and front passenger's shoulders.
Furthermore, the 3.0 turbo with typical turbo lag and turbo boom, fractionally too firm, and the worst durability of the three.
The 4GS is still my personal choice, but Lexus still does really really need to improve on the styling.
In doing so, their sales and their profitability will also lift as a result.
The manufacturer, dealers and sales reps would all benefit as a result of higher sales figures, and this would in-turn lead to a much bigger R&D budget for the next generation 5GS - so that we would all benefit...
Last edited by peteharvey; 04-24-12 at 07:06 PM.
04-24-12 | 07:06 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Pete while I agree with some points I think in regards to sales there are some thoughts missing.
1. You are not going to outsell the 5/E like the RX can't be outsold. Some cars simply dominate a segment. Lexus seems to be happy getting their share and selling in third place.
2. E class sales include COUPES so its not a fair comparison. There are also more versions of the E, and I've stated how the GS needs more versions.
3. BMW has way more 5 series versions from the 4 cylinder 528 to the 5Gran Turismo wagon/van/suv thing to the M5. The 528 itself sells around 1,500 units a month. Imagine a GS 250 or so added to the mix, it would help sales surely.
4. The Germans have historically leased very aggressively, BMW in particular, something that BMW in Germany has stated they still are concerned about. Lexus finally got more aggressive with leases with this gen GS.
5. The E/5 don't have an ES to compete with internally like the GS does.The ES is the volume Lexus car sized similar to the GS. We have stated it hurts GS sales and its a Lexus product.
There were WAY to many people expecting this GS to flop or fail and the opposite has happened. It is selling past expectations and a solid 3rd in sales here, 4th/5th place are not close to the GS.
It seems sales are like this
5/E
big space
GS
big space
everyone else
1. You are not going to outsell the 5/E like the RX can't be outsold. Some cars simply dominate a segment. Lexus seems to be happy getting their share and selling in third place.
2. E class sales include COUPES so its not a fair comparison. There are also more versions of the E, and I've stated how the GS needs more versions.
3. BMW has way more 5 series versions from the 4 cylinder 528 to the 5Gran Turismo wagon/van/suv thing to the M5. The 528 itself sells around 1,500 units a month. Imagine a GS 250 or so added to the mix, it would help sales surely.
4. The Germans have historically leased very aggressively, BMW in particular, something that BMW in Germany has stated they still are concerned about. Lexus finally got more aggressive with leases with this gen GS.
5. The E/5 don't have an ES to compete with internally like the GS does.The ES is the volume Lexus car sized similar to the GS. We have stated it hurts GS sales and its a Lexus product.
There were WAY to many people expecting this GS to flop or fail and the opposite has happened. It is selling past expectations and a solid 3rd in sales here, 4th/5th place are not close to the GS.
It seems sales are like this
5/E
big space
GS
big space
everyone else
04-24-12 | 07:39 PM
#34
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,874
Likes: 3
From: Canuckistan
I will probably have to quit posting here soon, and my opinion may not be appreciated by all, but here it is for what it's worth. I traded my 2010 GS350 for a BMW 550 M-Sport three weeks ago. My reasons are a bit complex, because no doubt the new GS is a lot closer to a BMW than my old GS was.
But here is my take. I fully believe the GS does what Motor Trend says it does. But if you read the part on the BMW, then the GS, what seems to win for the Lexus is that it is easier to throw into the curves and is more nimble. But read what they say about the BMW. They rave about the quiet solid and refined feel of the car while it still handles extremely well. And that is what I think 99.9% of buyers in this class are really looking for. Exactly what they said about the BMW is what blows me away every time I drive my BMW.
The reason I did not even seriously consider the Lexus is that they don't offer a more powerful V8 any more. Doesn't it strike anyone odd that the year they get serious about performance they only offer it with the exact same drive train as the previous year, only they drop the V8? What an opportunity to show how serious they are by offering the LS460s 380 hp and eight speed auto (or tweak it to 400hp to match the 550 BMW).
There are other things I don't care for about the new GS, but they are more subjective so I don't won't to elaborate. On the other hand, let me be sure I'm clear that I think the GS is a damn fine car and I would not tell anyone not to buy one. I personally don't think it beats the BMW yet. I just think that the magazines over rate the ultimate handling on cars like this. They seem to think every car should be rated on how well it handles when driven hard. Again, not a knock on the Lexus, I just think their priorities are not in line with most buyers.
But here is my take. I fully believe the GS does what Motor Trend says it does. But if you read the part on the BMW, then the GS, what seems to win for the Lexus is that it is easier to throw into the curves and is more nimble. But read what they say about the BMW. They rave about the quiet solid and refined feel of the car while it still handles extremely well. And that is what I think 99.9% of buyers in this class are really looking for. Exactly what they said about the BMW is what blows me away every time I drive my BMW.
The reason I did not even seriously consider the Lexus is that they don't offer a more powerful V8 any more. Doesn't it strike anyone odd that the year they get serious about performance they only offer it with the exact same drive train as the previous year, only they drop the V8? What an opportunity to show how serious they are by offering the LS460s 380 hp and eight speed auto (or tweak it to 400hp to match the 550 BMW).
There are other things I don't care for about the new GS, but they are more subjective so I don't won't to elaborate. On the other hand, let me be sure I'm clear that I think the GS is a damn fine car and I would not tell anyone not to buy one. I personally don't think it beats the BMW yet. I just think that the magazines over rate the ultimate handling on cars like this. They seem to think every car should be rated on how well it handles when driven hard. Again, not a knock on the Lexus, I just think their priorities are not in line with most buyers.
04-24-12 | 07:56 PM
#36
Racer
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,340
Likes: 70
From: Texas
I love my BMWs, until they broke down. I spent so much money trying to keep my Bimmers running, I could buy another BMW. Even on some brand new BMWs the electrical gremlins show up all the time. I know because I looked all over the E36, E39, E60, E90 forums. It is a real love / hate relationship.
With the reliability reputation of Lexus, I really hope the 4 GS will be a love / love relationship.
When the BMW, MB, and Audi drivers found out there is a car that drives just as well and much more reliable, they will switch to Lexus. However, Rome was not built in one day. I see this as a slow but steady migration.
If the Europeans become as reliable as the Japanese and Japanese can perform like the Europeans, everybody wins. The magic of competitive Capitalism.
As for the V8, Lexus dropped it to save development cost and concentrated the money to do the new GS right. This is a brilliant decision consider it was on the copping block 2 years ago and the financial crisis all over the world. What will you do if you are a bit cash short as Lexus was? As the 4 GS build up the sales numbers, I am sure they will find the money to develop the V8 model or GS F or both as 2014 or 15 models. Remember BMW5 only comes in I6 engine in the old days? V8 was added much later.
It is not easy to run a company and each decision will be discussed and reviewed over and over again. I like what Toyota and Lexus are doing right now more than BMWs and MBs. i3 or A series anyone?
With the reliability reputation of Lexus, I really hope the 4 GS will be a love / love relationship.
When the BMW, MB, and Audi drivers found out there is a car that drives just as well and much more reliable, they will switch to Lexus. However, Rome was not built in one day. I see this as a slow but steady migration.
If the Europeans become as reliable as the Japanese and Japanese can perform like the Europeans, everybody wins. The magic of competitive Capitalism.
As for the V8, Lexus dropped it to save development cost and concentrated the money to do the new GS right. This is a brilliant decision consider it was on the copping block 2 years ago and the financial crisis all over the world. What will you do if you are a bit cash short as Lexus was? As the 4 GS build up the sales numbers, I am sure they will find the money to develop the V8 model or GS F or both as 2014 or 15 models. Remember BMW5 only comes in I6 engine in the old days? V8 was added much later.
It is not easy to run a company and each decision will be discussed and reviewed over and over again. I like what Toyota and Lexus are doing right now more than BMWs and MBs. i3 or A series anyone?
Sorry, but I don't see how you can say Lexus did not have the funds to develop the V8. It existed in the outgoing car, complete with 8 speed automatic. Besides, Toyota/Lexus has plenty of money. They simply decided they didn't need to offer a V8. That's fine. They can do what they want, and maybe they will never miss guys like me who jumped ship primarily for that reason. Every company in the world gets to decide what is important to them in their product offering. I just think it was an odd time for them to retreat from a higher powered version.
04-24-12 | 08:01 PM
#37
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,874
Likes: 3
From: Canuckistan
Presently I own 3 Lexiis, including the recently superseded GS, and I may very well buy the new 4GS.
I have driven the 535i, and the all new 335i, as well as the latest 4GS.
However, like you jjscsix, Lexus has certainly improved with the new 4GS, but I don't think Lexus has done well enough with the new 4GS.
It's one thing to be biased and show favoritism; it's another thing to be neutral.
What I want is "real world results", in other words, purchasing or sales statistics.
As another Lexus forum member posted on a different thread, last year Lexus sold 3500 GS's, against 8000 Infiniti G37's, some 42000 5 Series and 53500 E Class Benz.
The all new 4GS simply will not sell 42000 to 53500 units in the USA alongside the E Class and 5 Series.
We must very roughly estimate how many 4GS's will sell?
We must all ask ourselves, why are the results like that?
Why aren't more people buying 4GS's?
Where did the all new 4GS go wrong?
What clear message must be sent to Toyota from Japan?
If we keep raving about the new 4GS, and this raving gets to Japan, we will mislead Lexus.
Mr Toyota will continue to pump cars out like the new 4GS, and we will continue to have a 4GS that sells 10,000 to 20,000 units a year in the USA - embarrassingly selling at half the rate of the E Class and 5 Series.
We all know the new 4GS won't sell on par with the E and 5; not even half way?
Now, where has the new 4GS gone wrong?
The old 3GS had a jelly bean shape that is too radical for buyers in this segment.
The old 3GS jelly bean shape is also not practical and roomy for size.
The new 4GS has a conventional 3-box shape that is practical and roomy, and as Natnut has pointed out, the new 4GS now has the biggest boot in it's class.
Btw, did you guys know the new 4GS now has the highest rear seat base, and hence the most comfortable rear seat.
The rear seats on the 5 Series are the worst in this segment.
You sit lowest with your backside almost to the floor.
Your knees then point into the sky.
Worse, the driver and front passenger seats are too high relative to the rear seats, thus the rear passengers have to look "over" the driver and front passenger's shoulders for a forward view - very uncomfortable.
Now, the 3.5 liter 60 degree V6 engine in the GS is the best engine in it's class.
It has atmospheric response, and bags of bottom end torque, top end power, and it revs gloriously smooth.
Better than the 3.5 liter 90 degree coarse unit in the E350 Benz, and better than the 3.0 Turbo in the 535i.
For those who don't already know, the 90 degree Benz V6, is 90 degrees because it is cast from a 90 degree V8 die to save money; however a V6 in 90 degrees has poor air intake resulting in lower bottom end torque, and extreme coarseness - if you ever test my mother's 2001 Benz C240 2.6.
Btw, if you guys have ever driven the old GS460 V8 back to back with a GS350, and you are pretty knowledgeable with cars, you will realise that the V8 version has a very heavy nose - so it's very reluctant, hence slow to turn into corners.
Hence personally, I'm not particularly keen on V8's in this size of motor car.
A V6 is reasonably powerful, yet light on the nose, for sharp and quick turn in; that is, quick changes in direction, by keeping the average mass closer to the centre of gravity, and lowering the polar moment of inertia.
The V6 Lexus is the smoothest V6 in it's class! However, no longer the quietest; more on this later.
The new 4GS has lovely steering feel, turn-in, handling and ride.
If you test drive the new 4GS against the 535i, and the Jaguar XF, you will find that the new 4GS is almost as firm as the 535i, with the XF being by far the firmest.
Lexus has deliberately made the 4GS a little softer, to compete against the much much softer E350 Benz. Lexus has done well here.
The new 4GS has a lovely small steering wheel with thick rim, it has good feel, good lighter weighting, reasonably sharper response, good body control with respect to roll, decent terminal grip, and it is very controllable at the limit.
The best Lexus chassis I have ever driven is the old discontinued IS200 and IS300.
The IS200/300 had the small steering wheel, the sharpest turn-in of any sedan including the 3 Series from 1998-2005, the highest levels of adhesion, and it was so controllable at the limit - the tail would simply not snap at you, like the traditional semi-trailing arm rear suspension systems used in the 1 Series BMW's.
As to the F-Sports, I have not driven it myself, however I suspect that it's even more firmly sprung than the 535i Sports, hence the F-Sports is the sports sedan king, and is presently winning a lot of reviews.
Suspension design is mostly a compromise; the firmer the suspension, the better the handling, at the expense to the ride.
I have driven the 535i, and the all new 335i, as well as the latest 4GS.
However, like you jjscsix, Lexus has certainly improved with the new 4GS, but I don't think Lexus has done well enough with the new 4GS.
It's one thing to be biased and show favoritism; it's another thing to be neutral.
What I want is "real world results", in other words, purchasing or sales statistics.
As another Lexus forum member posted on a different thread, last year Lexus sold 3500 GS's, against 8000 Infiniti G37's, some 42000 5 Series and 53500 E Class Benz.
The all new 4GS simply will not sell 42000 to 53500 units in the USA alongside the E Class and 5 Series.
We must very roughly estimate how many 4GS's will sell?
We must all ask ourselves, why are the results like that?
Why aren't more people buying 4GS's?
Where did the all new 4GS go wrong?
What clear message must be sent to Toyota from Japan?
If we keep raving about the new 4GS, and this raving gets to Japan, we will mislead Lexus.
Mr Toyota will continue to pump cars out like the new 4GS, and we will continue to have a 4GS that sells 10,000 to 20,000 units a year in the USA - embarrassingly selling at half the rate of the E Class and 5 Series.
We all know the new 4GS won't sell on par with the E and 5; not even half way?
Now, where has the new 4GS gone wrong?
The old 3GS had a jelly bean shape that is too radical for buyers in this segment.
The old 3GS jelly bean shape is also not practical and roomy for size.
The new 4GS has a conventional 3-box shape that is practical and roomy, and as Natnut has pointed out, the new 4GS now has the biggest boot in it's class.
Btw, did you guys know the new 4GS now has the highest rear seat base, and hence the most comfortable rear seat.
The rear seats on the 5 Series are the worst in this segment.
You sit lowest with your backside almost to the floor.
Your knees then point into the sky.
Worse, the driver and front passenger seats are too high relative to the rear seats, thus the rear passengers have to look "over" the driver and front passenger's shoulders for a forward view - very uncomfortable.
Now, the 3.5 liter 60 degree V6 engine in the GS is the best engine in it's class.
It has atmospheric response, and bags of bottom end torque, top end power, and it revs gloriously smooth.
Better than the 3.5 liter 90 degree coarse unit in the E350 Benz, and better than the 3.0 Turbo in the 535i.
For those who don't already know, the 90 degree Benz V6, is 90 degrees because it is cast from a 90 degree V8 die to save money; however a V6 in 90 degrees has poor air intake resulting in lower bottom end torque, and extreme coarseness - if you ever test my mother's 2001 Benz C240 2.6.
Btw, if you guys have ever driven the old GS460 V8 back to back with a GS350, and you are pretty knowledgeable with cars, you will realise that the V8 version has a very heavy nose - so it's very reluctant, hence slow to turn into corners.
Hence personally, I'm not particularly keen on V8's in this size of motor car.
A V6 is reasonably powerful, yet light on the nose, for sharp and quick turn in; that is, quick changes in direction, by keeping the average mass closer to the centre of gravity, and lowering the polar moment of inertia.
The V6 Lexus is the smoothest V6 in it's class! However, no longer the quietest; more on this later.
The new 4GS has lovely steering feel, turn-in, handling and ride.
If you test drive the new 4GS against the 535i, and the Jaguar XF, you will find that the new 4GS is almost as firm as the 535i, with the XF being by far the firmest.
Lexus has deliberately made the 4GS a little softer, to compete against the much much softer E350 Benz. Lexus has done well here.
The new 4GS has a lovely small steering wheel with thick rim, it has good feel, good lighter weighting, reasonably sharper response, good body control with respect to roll, decent terminal grip, and it is very controllable at the limit.
The best Lexus chassis I have ever driven is the old discontinued IS200 and IS300.
The IS200/300 had the small steering wheel, the sharpest turn-in of any sedan including the 3 Series from 1998-2005, the highest levels of adhesion, and it was so controllable at the limit - the tail would simply not snap at you, like the traditional semi-trailing arm rear suspension systems used in the 1 Series BMW's.
As to the F-Sports, I have not driven it myself, however I suspect that it's even more firmly sprung than the 535i Sports, hence the F-Sports is the sports sedan king, and is presently winning a lot of reviews.
Suspension design is mostly a compromise; the firmer the suspension, the better the handling, at the expense to the ride.
Refinement wise, the new 4GS is the quietest car in it's class, and even quieter than the old 3GS on cruising.
However, the moment we lightly prod the accelerator, the engines which now have de-insulated firewalls, immediately become very loud!!!
More louder than the E Class and 5 Series!!
This will not appease many traditional Lexus buyers accustomed to a muted engine.
However, the moment we lightly prod the accelerator, the engines which now have de-insulated firewalls, immediately become very loud!!!
More louder than the E Class and 5 Series!!
This will not appease many traditional Lexus buyers accustomed to a muted engine.
Now, why won't the new 4GS sell at volumes on par with E and 5?
Why do people keep buying the E Class and 5 Series in such large numbers?
What message must we send to the Research and Development team in Japan?
Will we keep on misleading the Japanese into thinking that the new 4GS is selling on par with E and 5?
Why don't we get the message across to Lexus, so that the GS can do to the luxury market, what the Camry does to the mass car market?
Why do people keep buying the E Class and 5 Series in such large numbers?
What message must we send to the Research and Development team in Japan?
Will we keep on misleading the Japanese into thinking that the new 4GS is selling on par with E and 5?
Why don't we get the message across to Lexus, so that the GS can do to the luxury market, what the Camry does to the mass car market?
The new 4GS is a great car, but there are several factors holding it back from an outright victory in the sales department.
Number 1 is probably the exterior and interior styling.
At some angles, the new 4GS does look stylish including the rear, esp in lighter colours, however at most angles, the 4GS looks blander than the old model.
Lexus must make the 5GS more stylish. The current 4GS is still a little bland, especially on the side and rear.
The 4GS dashboard, especially the concave area above the glove box is not so stylish; the old 3GS dash was actually more stylish.
Number 2, the new 4GS is more spacious, but still not enough.
The new 4GS gained fancy 20-way adjustable seats, for only 1 centimeter more rear foot room.
The 20-way adjustment is actually a gimmick, and no more comfortable than 8-way adjustment.
Lexus should combine 8-way adjustment etc, with much more foot room like their own Camry!
The rear foot room of the new 4GS is still the worst in it's class!
We must get the message to Japan.
The new 4GS is still short on rear legroom and rear shoulder room.
The number 3 and last point is the removal of engine firewall sound insulation material.
Though quietest in it's class on cruising, now the new 4GS is the loudest on acceleration in it's class!
I think they went just a bit too far here; more firewall insulation would be appreciated.
Afterall, the 4GS is supposed to be sporting luxury, meaning both sports and luxury.
We need some firewall insulation for the luxury component.
We must get this message to Lexus in Japan.
If they can make the styling more stylish inside and out, improve the rear foot, leg and shoulder room, put back some firewall sound insulation material, then I think the next 5GS should be able to amass 40,000 to 50,000 units per year on par with the E Class and 5 Series in the USA.
Presently as it stands, the 4GS simply won't sell on par, regardless of bias and favoritism.
The truth is in the sales figures; it it does not sell, there must be something wrong.
If the Camry can become America's best selling car, then surely the GS is capable of becoming the best selling mid-size luxo in America - provided Lexus put some intelligent thinking into their future designs...
Nice angle.
However unfortunately, in real life, it is honestly bland.
One of the reasons why this particular photo looks quite attractive is because it is taken with an overcast sky.
When the sky is overcast, the paint tends to reflect more light - in other words, the paint work tends to glow more.
Bland angle.
Just a few improvements needed to genuinely sell against the E Class and 5 Series, for true game changing...
Number 1 is probably the exterior and interior styling.
At some angles, the new 4GS does look stylish including the rear, esp in lighter colours, however at most angles, the 4GS looks blander than the old model.
Lexus must make the 5GS more stylish. The current 4GS is still a little bland, especially on the side and rear.
The 4GS dashboard, especially the concave area above the glove box is not so stylish; the old 3GS dash was actually more stylish.
Number 2, the new 4GS is more spacious, but still not enough.
The new 4GS gained fancy 20-way adjustable seats, for only 1 centimeter more rear foot room.
The 20-way adjustment is actually a gimmick, and no more comfortable than 8-way adjustment.
Lexus should combine 8-way adjustment etc, with much more foot room like their own Camry!
The rear foot room of the new 4GS is still the worst in it's class!
We must get the message to Japan.
The new 4GS is still short on rear legroom and rear shoulder room.
The number 3 and last point is the removal of engine firewall sound insulation material.
Though quietest in it's class on cruising, now the new 4GS is the loudest on acceleration in it's class!
I think they went just a bit too far here; more firewall insulation would be appreciated.
Afterall, the 4GS is supposed to be sporting luxury, meaning both sports and luxury.
We need some firewall insulation for the luxury component.
We must get this message to Lexus in Japan.
If they can make the styling more stylish inside and out, improve the rear foot, leg and shoulder room, put back some firewall sound insulation material, then I think the next 5GS should be able to amass 40,000 to 50,000 units per year on par with the E Class and 5 Series in the USA.
Presently as it stands, the 4GS simply won't sell on par, regardless of bias and favoritism.
The truth is in the sales figures; it it does not sell, there must be something wrong.
If the Camry can become America's best selling car, then surely the GS is capable of becoming the best selling mid-size luxo in America - provided Lexus put some intelligent thinking into their future designs...
Nice angle.
However unfortunately, in real life, it is honestly bland.
One of the reasons why this particular photo looks quite attractive is because it is taken with an overcast sky.
When the sky is overcast, the paint tends to reflect more light - in other words, the paint work tends to glow more.
Bland angle.
Just a few improvements needed to genuinely sell against the E Class and 5 Series, for true game changing...
Sure the Merc is more fashionable - it has more lines and creases, but the body work still remains underwhelming. Lexus designs are conservative, but supremely executed. Their killer paint jobs help as well. Fashion trends in car design will always be set by European brands, but that doesn't necessarily mean their designs are the best. It's the mentality that anything and everything coming out of Europe is the latest and greatest in fashion, and not just with cars. I find that Lexus cars don't really look European/German (on the outside at least), but they still manage to look premium. This is something every other non-German luxury brand has struggled with, including Infiniti, and Acura.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 04-24-12 at 08:08 PM.
04-24-12 | 08:03 PM
#38
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,405
Likes: 497
From: Ca
It's only when we accelerate, even lightly, that the 4GS's lack of firewall insulation becomes evident.
This is music to the enthusiasts ears, but I suspect the regular mainstream luxury customer prefers more sound insulation under acceleration...
04-24-12 | 08:37 PM
#39
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,405
Likes: 497
From: Ca
Mr Burns, I don't know much about that sound generator to make the GS louder?
Maybe they just added resonance to the intake ports etc.
That E Class coupe pictured above is beautifully styled.
Pity the lines are too sharp - it will age quickly.
If they softened the lines, it will age very gracefully like 3GS...
Maybe they just added resonance to the intake ports etc.
That E Class coupe pictured above is beautifully styled.
Pity the lines are too sharp - it will age quickly.
If they softened the lines, it will age very gracefully like 3GS...
04-24-12 | 08:54 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,874
Likes: 3
From: Canuckistan
Mr Burns, I don't know much about that sound generator to make the GS louder?
Maybe they just added resonance to the intake ports etc.
That E Class coupe pictured above is beautifully styled.
Pity the lines are too sharp - it will age quickly.
If they softened the lines, it will age very gracefully like 3GS...
Maybe they just added resonance to the intake ports etc.
That E Class coupe pictured above is beautifully styled.
Pity the lines are too sharp - it will age quickly.
If they softened the lines, it will age very gracefully like 3GS...
The very sharp fast aging lines are my #1 complaint with Mercedes and newer Audi designs. While I would certainly call the E-class coupe "styled", I would not use the word beautiful.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 04-24-12 at 08:57 PM.
04-24-12 | 09:08 PM
#41
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,405
Likes: 497
From: Ca
Pete while I agree with some points I think in regards to sales there are some thoughts missing.
1. You are not going to outsell the 5/E like the RX can't be outsold. Some cars simply dominate a segment. Lexus seems to be happy getting their share and selling in third place.
2. E class sales include COUPES so its not a fair comparison. There are also more versions of the E, and I've stated how the GS needs more versions.
3. BMW has way more 5 series versions from the 4 cylinder 528 to the 5Gran Turismo wagon/van/suv thing to the M5. The 528 itself sells around 1,500 units a month. Imagine a GS 250 or so added to the mix, it would help sales surely.
4. The Germans have historically leased very aggressively, BMW in particular, something that BMW in Germany has stated they still are concerned about. Lexus finally got more aggressive with leases with this gen GS.
5. The E/5 don't have an ES to compete with internally like the GS does.The ES is the volume Lexus car sized similar to the GS. We have stated it hurts GS sales and its a Lexus product.
There were WAY to many people expecting this GS to flop or fail and the opposite has happened. It is selling past expectations and a solid 3rd in sales here, 4th/5th place are not close to the GS.
It seems sales are like this
5/E
big space
GS
big space
everyone else
1. You are not going to outsell the 5/E like the RX can't be outsold. Some cars simply dominate a segment. Lexus seems to be happy getting their share and selling in third place.
2. E class sales include COUPES so its not a fair comparison. There are also more versions of the E, and I've stated how the GS needs more versions.
3. BMW has way more 5 series versions from the 4 cylinder 528 to the 5Gran Turismo wagon/van/suv thing to the M5. The 528 itself sells around 1,500 units a month. Imagine a GS 250 or so added to the mix, it would help sales surely.
4. The Germans have historically leased very aggressively, BMW in particular, something that BMW in Germany has stated they still are concerned about. Lexus finally got more aggressive with leases with this gen GS.
5. The E/5 don't have an ES to compete with internally like the GS does.The ES is the volume Lexus car sized similar to the GS. We have stated it hurts GS sales and its a Lexus product.
There were WAY to many people expecting this GS to flop or fail and the opposite has happened. It is selling past expectations and a solid 3rd in sales here, 4th/5th place are not close to the GS.
It seems sales are like this
5/E
big space
GS
big space
everyone else
One way to improve the GS sales is to style it like the Lexus RX, facelifted IS, or LS.
Personally, I find these three Lexus models more beautifully styled than the 4GS, inside and out.
The other important method of boosting 4GS sales is exactly as you say - increase the number of body styles, and engine choices.
Lexus should come out with a "4 door coupe" type body style similar to the Benz CLS, possibly doing something similar to the discontinued 3GS with a swooping canopy and curves - less practicality, but it has the style like Mr Burn's E Class coupe above.
It'd also be nice to have more engine choices like 2.5, 3.0, and even V8's to suit different tastes, and keep jjscsix and others happy.
All of this = more sales for GS...
04-24-12 | 09:15 PM
#42
Lead Lap
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,664
Likes: 18
From: TX
Good post.
I don't think the engine noise is from de-insulation, but rather from the sound generator Lexus added to add "soul" to the engine. Personally I think it's stupid, but I have read that disconnecting it isn't very difficult. Maybe they should have made this an option or available only on F-sport models. Luxury models should have a muted engine.
Several reasons. First Mercedes and BMW offer very good lease rates, and most of these cars are leased. Second, there is the issue of brand image. When spending this kind of money on a car (even when leasing), most buyers will gravitate to the fanciest badge. This is why the E-class has been #1 in sales, despite being equipped with a V6 engine that made the least power and got the poorest fuel economy of any other in its segment. It also has one of the worst interiors, the most dated infotainment systems, and poorest dynamic numbers (braking, handling etc...). On the flip side the new Audi A6 has seen nothing but rave reviews since launch, and it's been selling at half the 4GS' numbers, and at times just 1/5th of the E-class'. This is not a reflection of how good or bad the A6 or the GS is relative to the E-class.
I don't think there is much issue with the exterior or interior of the 4GS, if anything I think that's what's driving the strong sales - yes even that much hated predator spindle grill is contributing here. The GS is one of the fastest selling cars in the US.
Sure the Merc is more fashionable - it has more lines and creases, but the body work still remains underwhelming. Lexus designs are conservative, but supremely executed. Their killer paint jobs help as well. Fashion trends in car design will always be set by European brands, but that doesn't necessarily mean their designs are the best. It's the mentality that anything and everything coming out of Europe is the latest and greatest in fashion, and not just with cars. I find that Lexus cars don't really look European/German (on the outside at least), but they still manage to look premium. This is something every other non-German luxury brand has struggled with, including Infiniti, and Acura.
I don't think the engine noise is from de-insulation, but rather from the sound generator Lexus added to add "soul" to the engine. Personally I think it's stupid, but I have read that disconnecting it isn't very difficult. Maybe they should have made this an option or available only on F-sport models. Luxury models should have a muted engine.
Several reasons. First Mercedes and BMW offer very good lease rates, and most of these cars are leased. Second, there is the issue of brand image. When spending this kind of money on a car (even when leasing), most buyers will gravitate to the fanciest badge. This is why the E-class has been #1 in sales, despite being equipped with a V6 engine that made the least power and got the poorest fuel economy of any other in its segment. It also has one of the worst interiors, the most dated infotainment systems, and poorest dynamic numbers (braking, handling etc...). On the flip side the new Audi A6 has seen nothing but rave reviews since launch, and it's been selling at half the 4GS' numbers, and at times just 1/5th of the E-class'. This is not a reflection of how good or bad the A6 or the GS is relative to the E-class.
I don't think there is much issue with the exterior or interior of the 4GS, if anything I think that's what's driving the strong sales - yes even that much hated predator spindle grill is contributing here. The GS is one of the fastest selling cars in the US.
Sure the Merc is more fashionable - it has more lines and creases, but the body work still remains underwhelming. Lexus designs are conservative, but supremely executed. Their killer paint jobs help as well. Fashion trends in car design will always be set by European brands, but that doesn't necessarily mean their designs are the best. It's the mentality that anything and everything coming out of Europe is the latest and greatest in fashion, and not just with cars. I find that Lexus cars don't really look European/German (on the outside at least), but they still manage to look premium. This is something every other non-German luxury brand has struggled with, including Infiniti, and Acura.
Re: styling, I think your pictures say it all. You have the same GS F Sport I do, in Liquid Platinum, and although the styling may be considered bland by some, it definitely has presence. I've owned many cars, and I still sneak out into the garage at night to fawn over this beauty!
(That includes the interior.) One of my neighbors driving down the street in an M3 Coupe was sticking his head out the window to get a look at the car as I was backing my GS into the garage. It definitely gets noticed.The Merc, with all its lines and pontoons, doesn't look all that substantial. It is just interesting to look at. Re: the 5 Series, I actually find the styling to be bland and more of the same, but it is still a handsome car. ''
IMO, the GS F Sport is so perfect in every respect I find myself trying to find some kind of fault with it.
Last edited by dseag2; 04-24-12 at 09:19 PM.
04-24-12 | 11:19 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 22,608
Likes: 102
From: Waiting for next track day
I still think the initial game changer in terms of company image was with the ISF, the the LFA, and now the GS F Sport. For this segment this is a huge achievement to dethrone the venerable 5 series. Thats huge to win a comparison when BMW usually always dominates.nI think Lexus has finally realized that consumers like and trust their cars but desire more overall balance and driving pleasure. With Lexus on this track I think the Germans will lose a few more frustrated BMW loyalists that are getting tired of repeated trips to the shop
04-25-12 | 12:02 AM
#44
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 88
From: Singapore
@peteharvey
I agree with you that more sales will spur Toyota to put more resources into R and D to continually improve the GS.
However 1Sicklex brought up a good counterpoint : to attract the masses who merely want a stylish luxurious spacious people carrier but don't want to spend LS money, Lexus already has the ES which sells by the boatloads.
IMO what has made this current gen GS a success is because it is a sharply focussed tool : designed to be a pleasurable driver's car without being coarse or uncomfortable. If we want it to be all things to all people just to chase a sales target(ie be a cavernous people carrier yet be sporty and great driving machine at the same time, )we will merely dilute its special unique properties and it will be good at neither function.
It was this "design by commitee" that made past Lexuses seem boring and bland--we certainly don't want to fall into that trap again. The only reason the ISF, the LFA and now the current GS has an edge to them is due to Akio Toyoda ripping up the old playbook of "design-by-commitee" and saying : "screw it. I'll design the GS the way I want it" and riding herd on his poor GS chief engineer to ensure his vision for the new GS came to pass.
We've already seen the pitfalls designing a car just for the sake of sales figures : BMW designed the new F10 5 series to be more luxurious and comfortable and spacious, essentially aping the characteristics of the E-class in order to beat Mercedes Benz E-class sales in North America. With that purpose in mind, the new F10 chassis was based off a modified 7 series platform to 1) save development costs and 2) adopt the sound and road-isolating properties of the heavier 7 series. That resulted in the 5 series unavoidably gaining 400 pounds and losing its dynamic/handling edge.
In the process of achieving it's sales targets and catching up with Mercedes numbers, the 5 series has lost it soul. It's no longer the unique E39 which captured the hearts of driving purists or even the hardcore E60 which had great road connection. BMW tried to be all things with the new 5 series and quite frankly, despite its great sales figures, the car has lost its hold on the hearts of true BMW purists. Right now, people buy the 5 series for its badge and because the V8 does a good job of being an old-school AMG mercedes in BMW clothing-fast in a straight line but not so great at corner carving.
The 5 series is living off its past fame as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when truthfully, it is now the "Ultimate Mercedes E Clone". The mainstream press has not yet called out BMW for that so most people who don't bother to do their research still blindly buy the car believing they are getting the "UDM". If this continues for the next generation, BMW is in danger of perception catching up to reality and the 5 series losing its hold on the imaginations of driving purists permanently.
Lexus GS just dethroned BMW 5 series as the handling champ. Let's not start diluting what made it great in an effort to chase sales.
I agree with you that more sales will spur Toyota to put more resources into R and D to continually improve the GS.
However 1Sicklex brought up a good counterpoint : to attract the masses who merely want a stylish luxurious spacious people carrier but don't want to spend LS money, Lexus already has the ES which sells by the boatloads.
IMO what has made this current gen GS a success is because it is a sharply focussed tool : designed to be a pleasurable driver's car without being coarse or uncomfortable. If we want it to be all things to all people just to chase a sales target(ie be a cavernous people carrier yet be sporty and great driving machine at the same time, )we will merely dilute its special unique properties and it will be good at neither function.
It was this "design by commitee" that made past Lexuses seem boring and bland--we certainly don't want to fall into that trap again. The only reason the ISF, the LFA and now the current GS has an edge to them is due to Akio Toyoda ripping up the old playbook of "design-by-commitee" and saying : "screw it. I'll design the GS the way I want it" and riding herd on his poor GS chief engineer to ensure his vision for the new GS came to pass.
We've already seen the pitfalls designing a car just for the sake of sales figures : BMW designed the new F10 5 series to be more luxurious and comfortable and spacious, essentially aping the characteristics of the E-class in order to beat Mercedes Benz E-class sales in North America. With that purpose in mind, the new F10 chassis was based off a modified 7 series platform to 1) save development costs and 2) adopt the sound and road-isolating properties of the heavier 7 series. That resulted in the 5 series unavoidably gaining 400 pounds and losing its dynamic/handling edge.
In the process of achieving it's sales targets and catching up with Mercedes numbers, the 5 series has lost it soul. It's no longer the unique E39 which captured the hearts of driving purists or even the hardcore E60 which had great road connection. BMW tried to be all things with the new 5 series and quite frankly, despite its great sales figures, the car has lost its hold on the hearts of true BMW purists. Right now, people buy the 5 series for its badge and because the V8 does a good job of being an old-school AMG mercedes in BMW clothing-fast in a straight line but not so great at corner carving.
The 5 series is living off its past fame as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when truthfully, it is now the "Ultimate Mercedes E Clone". The mainstream press has not yet called out BMW for that so most people who don't bother to do their research still blindly buy the car believing they are getting the "UDM". If this continues for the next generation, BMW is in danger of perception catching up to reality and the 5 series losing its hold on the imaginations of driving purists permanently.
Lexus GS just dethroned BMW 5 series as the handling champ. Let's not start diluting what made it great in an effort to chase sales.
Last edited by natnut; 04-25-12 at 04:55 AM.
04-25-12 | 05:53 AM
#45
Racer
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,340
Likes: 70
From: Texas
@peteharvey....The 5 series is living off its past fame as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" when truthfully, it is now the "Ultimate Mercedes E Clone". The mainstream press has not yet called out BMW for that so most people who don't bother to do their research still blindly buy the car believing they are getting the "UDM". If this continues for the next generation, BMW is in danger of perception catching up to reality and the 5 series losing its hold on the imaginations of driving purists permanently.
Lexus GS just dethroned BMW 5 series as the handling champ. Let's not start diluting what made it great in an effort to chase sales.
Lexus GS just dethroned BMW 5 series as the handling champ. Let's not start diluting what made it great in an effort to chase sales.
I think what you are missing is that 99.9% of buyers in this class don't care if the Lexus just won based upon ultimate handling. It makes for nice advertising, but that's not what people in this class place as the highest priority. If the BMW was a poor handling car I would agree that there would be a number of people turning away from it. But it's not. Go back and read the Motor Trend article again. They raved about the BMW's silence, solidness and refinement and said it is still a very good handling car.
Again, I'm not knocking the Lexus. But anyone who thinks that buyers are "blindly" buying BMWs is greatly over estimating the new GS. Whether your think its a very good, or even great car, it's not like it just left everything else in the dust.