Mr. Burns

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and so forth.

kwr

You win!!! I realize the GS outsells the A6 and XF. So what, both cars still look better than the GS AND are more exclusive if you want to play that game. There is NOTHING exclusive about buying any Lexus -- especially a GS. If Lexus could consistently sell 50K or more GS's a year priced on par with it's competitors, they would.

Ok great so your family, friends and colleagues love your GS (mine loved my 2nd gen GS430 and the Benz I replaced it with ...). I'd still take any of the other sedans in the class (sans the M) over the GS. If the XF had AWD, I'd be all over it.

I drive a '12 750i and just dropped by to chime in. I'll make my grand exit now and let you continue defending your exclusive sports sedan.

Hope you don't get embarrased by a bland 550i or good heavens an E550 while trying to be cool in your game changing sports sedan.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

I like your 7 series alot and you made a great choice there. I have an Audi A8L and I love it. Either way its what makes you happy that matters. I never got embarassed yet nor will I ever do so because I do know what it is like to own them as I had done so in the past. I know that the GS blows them away and that is from my experience as a heavy mileage driver (20k plus a year). : ) have fun with the 7. If they bring the diesel here I will get it. 730d is my favorite in Europe.

Mr. Burns

The XF is one of the worst built cars in the segment, you can have it.

spwolf

Compared to what sedans? You listed complete class, less GS and M.
Are you comparing them to Camry? :-).

I guess you dont like the looks and thats fine, thankfully we all dont have same taste otherwise we wouldnt have as many choices (to me 750i also doesnt look anything special compared to S class for instance, pretty bland imho), but there lets give credit to Lexus for creating best handling luxury sedan in GS, no need to relativize it.

sydtoosic

to each his own. lexus enthusiasts are going to love lexus,,,benz enthusiasts are going to love benz and so on and so forth. Lexus built a great car ,,,, the 2013 lexus gs 350. i preferred the f-sport so that's what i bought and to "ME" it's a great car. test drove the MB E350, BMW 535i-xdrive and the AUDI A6. they were in or around the same price bracket, and at the end of the day i chose the GS350 F-Sport. IMO it was more fun to drive and the exterior and interior styling to "ME" was much better. at the end of the day i chose what "I" liked and felt was a better car. don't care about stats and pictures etc. THE 2013 LEXUS GS350 F-SPORT to "ME" is the car for me. in 2014 MB or BMW might build a car ( in the same price bracket ) better than the F-Sport, and i'll say wow like this car and i might even buy it because i think it's a better car. but i'll still love LEXUS. a lot of lexus enthusiasts were waiting on a car like the 2013 Lexus GS. now they have it and they're happy as hell,,,, it's their time to shine . myself included.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

Well said!

SNiiP3R

iTrader: (3)

and it has the ugliest interior in this class

peteharvey

This thread is about whether or not the new 4GS is a “game changer” for Lexus.
By definition, a game changer is something that changes the game.
That’s a big ask by anyone’s standards!

It may also be possible that the OP Opening Post innocently and accidentally chose a similar, but inaccurate word to describe the new 4GS?

The only Lexus I know of that’s a game changer is the Lexus RX!
Here’s why the RX is a game changer for Lexus.
The Lexus RX absolutely pulverised and decimated the competition!
See that ownership statistics below as the RX pulverises the competition with about 100,000 units/yr/USA, where the BMW X5 is reduced to just 40,000 units, and the Benz M Class is reduced to just 28,000 units!
Impressive?
That’s what we call a “game changer”.

Notice how the RX achieves this feat, using only one 4 door body style.
No 2 door coupe is needed.
Note how the RX also achieves this incredible feat using only 2 engine options; your choice of V6, or V6 hybrid!
Notice how the RX doesn’t pull off any excuses like 2 door coupe sales?

Indeed the RX sells by being a very well designed motor car!

Think about it - inappropriate use of words?
How has the 4GS changed the game???
The all new 4GS is a darn good car.
But a “game changer”?
I think not.

Personally, I own 3 Lexiis myself, and I am modest and honest.
I wouldn’t claim that any of my 3 Lexiis were “perfect”.
Nor would I claim that any three of my Lexiis were “beautifully styled”.
My three Lexiis are very good cars, but all three fall well short of perfection.
Just ask yourself, the new 4GS could have been better styled? Right?
This is the ingredient missing that could have made the new 4GS a real "game changer"!



Lexus RX Sales USA:
Generation (chassis code) Model no(s). Calendar year Total sales, U.S. (hybrid)
MCU10/MCU15
RX 300 2000 89,864[56]
2001 77,426[56]
2002 72,963[57]
2003 92,366[57]
MCU33/MCU38 RX 330 2004 106,531[58]
MCU33/MCU38/MHU33 RX 330/400h 2005 108,775[58]*(20,674)[29]
MCU33/MCU38/MHU33/MHU38 2006 108,348[59]*(20,161)[29]
GSU30/GSU35/MHU33/MHU38
RX 350/400h 2007 103,340[59]*(17,291)[29]
2008 84,181[60]*(15,200)[29]
GGL10/GGL15/GYL10/GYL15 RX 350/450h 2009 93,379[61]*(14,464)[62]
2010 95,790[63]


BMW X5 Production and Sales
[hide]Calendar year Total Production US sales
1999 1,312[9]
2000 38,282[10] 26,720
2001 82,645[10] 40,622[11]
2002 100,827[10] 42,742[12]
2003 105,554[10] 40,715[13]
2004 104,988[10] 35,225[14]
2005 101,537[10] 37,598
2006 75,321[10] 26,798[15]
2007 120,617[16] 35,202[17]
2008 116,489[18] 31,858
2009 88,851[19] 27,071
2010 102,178[20]*(2,778 X5M)[21] 35,776[22]
2011 40,547[23]



I don’t have any stats for Mercedes M Class annual sales, however the first 6 months of 2011 USA sales for the M Class is 14,189 units.
Extrapolating, that would make the annual 2011 USA sales of the M Class to be around a decimated 28,377 units.



Mercedes-Benz Passenger Vehicles Jun-11 Jun-10 Monthly % YTD 2011 YTD 2010 Yearly %

B-CLASS Fuel Cell 0 NA NA 4 NA NA

C-CLASS 4,620 5,563 -17.00% 29,981 29,555 1.40%

E-CLASS 5,798 4,865 19.10% 31,960 27,778 15.00%

S-CLASS 1,169 1,549 -24.50% 5,562 6,405 -13.20%

CL-CLASS 53 69 -23.20% 508 453 12.10%

SL-CLASS 109 198 -44.90% 950 1,213 27.10%

SLS AMG 18 50 -64.00% 348 218 56.10%

CLK-CLASS - 2 - 5 580 -99.10%

SLK-CLASS 340 627 -45.80% 1,092 1,377 -20.70%

CLS-CLASS 738 99 645.50% 1,328 1,065 24.70%

R-CLASS 75 186 59.70% 1,818 1,409 29.00%

M-CLASS 3,071 2,124 44.60% 14,189 12,393 14.50%

G-CLASS 146 83 89.10% 633 449 41.00%

GL-CLASS 2,585 1,367 75.90% 11,036 9,417 17.20%

GLK-CLASS 1,930 1,487 29.80% 11,512 11,362 1.30%

TOTAL 20,652 18,269 13.00% 110,926 103,674 6.50%

*SPRINTER 1,911 728 162.50% 7,095 3,293 102.10%

MBUSA Combined Total Jun-11 Jun-10 Monthly % YTD 2011 YTD 2010 Yearly %

GRAND TOTAL 22,563 18,997 18.80% 118,021 106,967 10.40%
*Mercedes-Benz and Freightliner Sprinter Vans are sold and marketed in the U.S. by Mercedes-Benz USA and Daimler Vans USA, respectively.

mehran888

peteharvey: I agree with you that the RX is a gamechanger, but not because it's decimating the X5 and ML-Class. I think it's a game changer because it created a segment:

* One of the first Luxury SUVs (it came out only a couple of years after the Explorer, 4Runner and Grand Cherokee got popular with soccer moms)
* One of the first car-based SUVs (if someone can verify this, I'm not positive)
* Despite the first generations generally "ugly" look (not from me, but go back to the late 90s and read C&D, R&D, Motortrend, etc.. they all thought it was the ugliest vehicle out), it sold solidly. I feel part of this is because:
* It got the "soccer mom" formula right (by the way, no offense to "soccer moms" and I don't mean to generalize. It's just an standard term that I'm re-using) by providing luxury, comfort, practicality, reliability and safety at a perfect price point.
* And I feel it continues to do well because no competitor is targeting it.
* It's more SUV than a GLK, X3, EX35, Q5, etc
* It's a better value and smaller than an ML or X5.

So yes, it's a game changer because it defined the segment and held it for better than a decade. My gut is that the latest gen X3 is going to challenge it, as is the Q5. But not enough to topple it.

The new GS has the potential to be a game changer. Not for the industry, but for Lexus' strategic and general direction. It may be the first car where people actually put Lexus at the same level as Mercedes and BMW in terms of prestige and being taken seriously. I love Lexus (and Toyota), but let's be honest, many people still see Lexus as inferior to BMW/Merc/Audi in some ways.

We'll only see. But is it going to redefine the segment? I don't think so. Is it going to redefine Lexus? Possibly.

End of rant!
M

spwolf

GS is game changer for Lexus for sure, as it created car that is sportier and better driver than German competition. First Lexus to do so. It is also first car to sport unified predator grille look. First car to sport new interior design that will be shared to certain extent between models.

So yes, it is game changer for Lexus.

LeslieRC

I'm a 7Series driver as well. Mine is an '11 MSport 750ix. The F01/02 is an amazing car, yes?

peteharvey

Mr Burns posted some quite impressive photographs of the new 4GS above.
So I drove to my local Lexus dealer to have another look at the 4GS.

Unfortunately, the photographs at the top of the thread above are taken at ideal angles, to show the reflection in the paintwork.
In real life, unfortunately the rear quarter of the all new 4GS is very very bland.
The photo below is probably much more realistic of what we see.
In truth, in real life, it looks even blander than this.
Surely they could have done a better job with the 4GS.
The new dashboard is woeful too.

This is similar to Ice350's Post #269 in the Lexus 4GS Reviews thread:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...thread-18.html
Where he says,
"Finally had an opportunity to drive next to a 4GS.
I can't help but to report that it actually looks worse on the road than I thought it would.
Much has been said about the front so I'll leave that alone.
I didn't expect to be put off by the rear this much.
The car looked boxy, plain and tall from the rear. The new Camry looks better".

Knowing Lexus, they will not facelift the 4GS by much in 3 years time.
The RX is a game changer with 100,000 units to the X5's 40k and the M Class' 28k, simply because the RX is very well styled outside, and inside!!!
Hopefully Lexus can get the next generation 5GS right, to land that killer punch, and well and truly change the game, similar to what the RX has done to the X5 and M Class...

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

A win is a win. I still don't trust most of the magazine test drivers. They were biased before and I won't forget that. But I am happy to see the wins.

Now if only the looks matched the handling.

peteharvey

+1
I'll have another drive of the 4GS, and my very first test drive of the F Sport in a few weeks time.

Normally, suspension design is a compromise.
Suspension design is compromised by spring and damper rates.
Chassis design is also actually compromised by the size/weight of the motor car.
Eg a first generation 1999-2006 IS200 which is smaller and lighter, will totally out-handle the current model 2nd generation bigger and heavier 2006-2013 IS250.
Thus, the extra 100+ kg on the new 4GS may affect actually its handling too, as it has done so with the latest 5 Series.

In the past, my IS250 and the IS-F has been known to be too firm.
It is very possible that the 4GS F Sport is too firm too???
In such case, the ride will be too hard and tiring to drive, and the car will skitter around bumpy corners.
I always read test drives, and test the cars myself, often back to back on the same morning.
Will let everyone know test results.

For example, the standard mainstream sports luxury 4GS that I tested is NOT quite as firm [and thankfully so] as the mainstream 535i Twin Turbo.
The BM is a little firmer and sharper handling, and thumpier ride too.
That's why in the conclusion, especially about handling/ride balance/compromise, I prefer journalists be a little more careful and cite horses for courses, rather than declaring an outright winner in the chassis department.

Personally, I prefer the mainstream 4GS over the mainstream 535i.
I have never driven the 4GS F Sport, nor the 535i Sports...