dseag2

In the "4GS Reviews" thread there is a writeup by one of the Edmunds guys saying how the new GS is his favorite in the class because of the driving experience. One of the posted replies to his article (not sure if this was a CL member) mentions that, unlike Audi and BMW, Lexus has both the ES and GS, so instead of trying to be all things to all people with one model they have the freedom to make the ES the "luxury cruiser" and the GS the "sport sedan". Audi and BMW only have the A6 and 5 Series and can only offer equipment packages to reach either segment. I thought this was an interesting and very poignant observation.

We frequently complain about the ES cannabilizing GS sales, but maybe the existence of the ES has actually given us GS owners the kind of car we have wanted for so long!

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

We frequently complain about the ES cannabilizing GS sales, but maybe the existence of the ES has actually given us GS owners the kind of car we have wanted for so long!


I agree with this 100%!!! That way you do not compromise too much. The 2011 BMW 5 I had was compromising too much and it felt like a GS with a bit of ES which I hated. The GS feels so alive and engaging.

natnut

I've said this before : The sales/profits of the ES( majority) finances the existence of the GS (minority), allowing the driving enthusiasts to enjoy the GS off the volume generated by the non-enthusiast buyers of the ES.

However it is a 2 way street. The GS acts like a loss-leader. The presence of the GS attracts people who read the favorable reviews it garners. When they get to the showroom, they see the ES sitting next to the GS, same size, larger interior volume, better gas mileage, cheaper by thousands. They do their calculations and being non-driving enthusiasts, 8 times of of 10, they will opt for the cheaper car. The presence and proximity of the more expensive GS also accentuates for them the impression that they got a good deal in getting the ES.

It is interesting that ES-GS sales breakdown in a 80%-20% ratio and that combined ES-GS monthly sales are roughly equivalent to total monthly 5 series/E-class sales.

Squirrelsb

I tend to think of the LS as the Luxury Cruiser and the GS as the sports sedan. However, I'm interested in the new ES300h for my wife as it has the same look and feel of the GS (not the F-Sport). So, for me, the ES does indeed take away interest from the base GS as its roughly the same size and a bit more cheaper with most of the same functionality.

sydtoosic

in other words... you can't go wrong with the 2013 GS. i concur. i want my car to be a sleeper once everything is done. i've seen 4 2013 ES vehicles in one day (they are selling like hotcakes) as opposed to the 2013 GS which i might see once a month, if that.

Hockyguy4u

I had a somewhat odd experience with the Lexus salesman on my test drive. I drove the F-Sport AWD and loved it, but he kept on trying to get me to drive the GS350 luxury model. (they had only a couple of F-Sport's, but MANY GS350 AWD Luxury models on the lot). I said, no thanks, I love the looks and espec the handling of the F-Sport. He then said that the handling of the Luxury models is the SAME as F-Sport models when they're driven in the Sport+ mode. I asked "Really? Are you sure? Are the suspension and steering in fact the same on the Luxury as the F-Sport when driven in the Sport+ mode?" He said YES, "the major differences are only cosmetic--plus different wheels/tires-- in the AWD models".
I knew this to be false, but said, no thanks, and even if so, "I love the looks and the F-Sport's cabernet interior, so I would choose the F-Sport anyway".

So it seems to me that maybe the GS350 Luxury models are falling through the cracks--people either choose the GS350 F-Sport, or the ES instead, and perhaps FEW choose the GS LUXURY....so that maybe the Lexus saleman have pressure on them to sell the GS Luxury models?....

(So I think that this is a shady saleman....but it does leave me with a question: Does the F-sport package impove the handling and suspension of the AWD model similarly to the RWD model? The reason I ask this is due to my research on the BMW 5-series recently. The M-Sport package on the RWD 535i does indeed tighten the suspension, but the M-Sport package on the AWD 535xi DOES NOT--it's only cosmetic--i.e., seats, steering wheel, fenders, etc... Thus my question: Is the F-Sport package on GS350 AWD different than the package on the GS350 RWD?? Is it only cosmetic in the AWD version, like the 5-Series? Did the salesman in fact tell me the truth?)

sydtoosic

LUX/F-Sport does indeed share the same AVS,SS+ mode etc. handling is better on the AWD, the RWD is more nimble and faster. slight differences btwn. the RWD&AWD. RWD has bigger calipers and brakes and not much else is different if anything.DRS is a RWD option and it's rare... which in that sense would make the handling better than the AWD.

Hockyguy4u

My question still remains:
Other than the wider tires, is there any handling difference between the Luxury and F-Sport-AWD-equipped models when driven in Sport+ mode?
My thinking is YES-- the F-sport package does indeed improve the steering and suspension in the AWD model as well as the RWD model.....is this correct? Any dealer guy on here that can answer?

Outrage

Why didn't you test drive both when you were given the opportunity? I test drove a standard model, an F Sport model, and I purchased a Luxury model. All of these models were AWD. I wasn't able to discern any meaningful differences in handling prowess between the F Sport and Luxury models. For roughly the same price as the F Sport model I was able to get a nicer interior and more useful features (IMO). All I had to sacrifice was a different front bumper, larger wheels, a spoiler, and the "F" badge on the front fender. All of those items are purely cosmetic.

If there are a lot of Luxury models on the dealer lots, that's due to the fact that they sell well. Dealerships have no interest in stocking models which won't sell.

Hockyguy4u

Outrage--
I saw the interiors of all the models. The cabernet interior of the F-sport is stunning--almost a work of art. It's much more to my taste than the interior with wood trim. I also like the F-sport bumper and grill better. The only part of the F-sport package I don't like are the wheels, and they're going to go...

Also, it's possible that they had few F-Sports because they were selling them quickly, but couldn't move the Luxury models.....so I'm not sure about your statement

mehran888

hockeyguy: I agree with the others comments, the differences are quite minimal and although you may feel the salesperson was dishonest, they probably didn't know any better.

Had it not been for stock availability, the Luxury is a better "value". You pay almost the same price as the F-Sport but get numerous more useful features.

THAT being said, I am very particular about my cars and I did notice a difference between the BASE AWD, F-Sport AWD, and Luxury AWD. I attribute it to the Base not having the AVS and the F-Sport having larger wheels. Aside from that those cars are mechnically quite close. The RWD is a slightly different story.

In short though, you can't go wrong. Great car and you'll love it. I'm personally happy the Luxury had a 3-month wait and I chose the F-Sport (two day wait) instead. The aggressive and cab interior have grown on me, and half the luxury features in the rear won't be used (carseats don't care about seat heaters).

natnut

The salesman is essentially telling the truth : For AWD models, there is not much difference dynamically between the Luxury and F-Sport package. Perhaps the software tuning for the AVS and VDIM is more sporty in the F-Sport.

All the mechanical performance advantages that F-Sport has over Luxury - Larger Front Rotors, VGRS, DRS (Rear Steering), staggered broader rear tires - are found only in the RWD models.
That said, the base structure of the 4GS is already very capable. Added to that, the AVS takes the ride-handling balance of the 4GS to the next level.

If I were to judge the contributions of each component to the total handling of a RWD F-Sport with DRS, they would be :

1) Basic suspension and chassis of the 4GS : 50%
2) AVS (Adaptive Variable Suspension) : 25%
3) Staggered 19" wheels of the RWD F-Sport : 10%
4) Larger Front Brakes (RWD only) : 5%
5) DRS (Rear Wheel Steering) : 10%

EDIT : I forgot about VGRS but it doesn't technically add to handling but sure adds to steering feel.

Hockyguy4u

Thanks, NATNUT...so it is indeed similar to the 5-series M-sport package on the 535i RWD vs. the 535xi...that, dynamically, the F-Sport package affects the RWD more than the AWD GS350.

sydtoosic

test drive and see for yourself.

dseag2

"Nicer interior" is in the eye of the beholder. Although I love the Linear Espresso Wood, the Cabernet/Aluminum interior in the F-Sport, along with the black headliner, is a knockout. It's not inferior, it's just sportier.