Has the 2013 GS been outclassed by the 2014 IS?
12-05-12, 06:36 PM
#16
Hey guys, I wouldn't worry here. With the IS being a cheaper car, it's probably not even economically feasible to make it an all-around better car. There'll be less leather, more plastics and less overall features at that price (vented seats, etc). I also like my 6-speed.
FWIW, I want all Lexus models to do better, and if the 3IS closes the gap with the 4GS, all the better. That just means the 4GS refresh and 5GS will be better, and so forth.
Not sure I agree with the IS being the 'bread and butter' vehicle. Pretty sure the RX and ES are more 'bread and butter' vehicles. Also consider that the IS was only introduced after the Lexus model line had 6 other models (RX, LS, ES, GS, LX, SC). I think the only ones that came after the IS are the GX, CT and short-lived HS. I could be wrong though.
The IS does have the potential to be the 'bread and butter' of the Lexus line-up (the 3-series and A4 are... I wouldn't say the C-class is though), but the ES and RX are unique enough (ES is peerless amongst the Germans, and the RX hits the right balance of price and size) to hold that torch for a while...
FWIW, I want all Lexus models to do better, and if the 3IS closes the gap with the 4GS, all the better. That just means the 4GS refresh and 5GS will be better, and so forth.
Not sure I agree with the IS being the 'bread and butter' vehicle. Pretty sure the RX and ES are more 'bread and butter' vehicles. Also consider that the IS was only introduced after the Lexus model line had 6 other models (RX, LS, ES, GS, LX, SC). I think the only ones that came after the IS are the GX, CT and short-lived HS. I could be wrong though.
The IS does have the potential to be the 'bread and butter' of the Lexus line-up (the 3-series and A4 are... I wouldn't say the C-class is though), but the ES and RX are unique enough (ES is peerless amongst the Germans, and the RX hits the right balance of price and size) to hold that torch for a while...
12-05-12, 06:40 PM
#17
You CANNOT compare IS with the GS ! the GS is a whole new level considering ES and IS the less-luxury sedans of lexus ! the same reason u cant compare a 3 series with the 5, and the A4 with the A6.
12-05-12, 07:41 PM
#18
Hey guys, I wouldn't worry here. With the IS being a cheaper car, it's probably not even economically feasible to make it an all-around better car. There'll be less leather, more plastics and less overall features at that price (vented seats, etc). I also like my 6-speed.
FWIW, I want all Lexus models to do better, and if the 3IS closes the gap with the 4GS, all the better. That just means the 4GS refresh and 5GS will be better, and so forth.
Not sure I agree with the IS being the 'bread and butter' vehicle. Pretty sure the RX and ES are more 'bread and butter' vehicles. Also consider that the IS was only introduced after the Lexus model line had 6 other models (RX, LS, ES, GS, LX, SC). I think the only ones that came after the IS are the GX, CT and short-lived HS. I could be wrong though.
The IS does have the potential to be the 'bread and butter' of the Lexus line-up (the 3-series and A4 are... I wouldn't say the C-class is though), but the ES and RX are unique enough (ES is peerless amongst the Germans, and the RX hits the right balance of price and size) to hold that torch for a while...
FWIW, I want all Lexus models to do better, and if the 3IS closes the gap with the 4GS, all the better. That just means the 4GS refresh and 5GS will be better, and so forth.
Not sure I agree with the IS being the 'bread and butter' vehicle. Pretty sure the RX and ES are more 'bread and butter' vehicles. Also consider that the IS was only introduced after the Lexus model line had 6 other models (RX, LS, ES, GS, LX, SC). I think the only ones that came after the IS are the GX, CT and short-lived HS. I could be wrong though.
The IS does have the potential to be the 'bread and butter' of the Lexus line-up (the 3-series and A4 are... I wouldn't say the C-class is though), but the ES and RX are unique enough (ES is peerless amongst the Germans, and the RX hits the right balance of price and size) to hold that torch for a while...
12-05-12, 07:51 PM
#19
If I remember correctly, the previous generation of C-Class models had new features that "trickled up" to the E-Class and S-Class, including the styling. I don't think anyone can say the C-Class outclassed the E-Class or S-Class at that time by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think E and S-Class owners rushed out to trade their cars on a new C-Class...
Kyle's Kars
The 2008 Mercedes Benz C300 Luxury: The Trickle Up Effect Revisited
By Kyle Quesnoy
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:59:57 PM
Courtesy of Roadfly
Unlike other luxury carmakers, Mercedes Benz has shown time and time again that consumers will not have to wait patiently for advanced technology to trickle slowly down through the German luxury brand’s model range. In fact, the forward-thinking Teuton wants to remind the world that innovations can flow upstream as well. Back in the early ‘80s, the compact 190E, known as the “Baby Benz,†was the guinea pig MB used to test its patented 5-link rear suspension. So successful was its engineering, that subsequent models in the Benz stables such as the mid-sized E-Class and full-sized S-Class adopted the multi-link setup soon after.
Today, Mercedes Benz hopes to continue its success albeit unorthodox marketing maneuvers with its revised for 2008 C-Class. Competition in the compact luxury car segment has become fiercer than it was during the decade of decadence, however, with viable contenders now hailing from The Land of the Rising Sun and from our own backyard as well. What appeared to be a huge leap 20 years ago, seems to be more of a baby step in the 21st century as major players from all corners of the globe continue to one-up each other in terms of bringing new technology to the kids table. It is difficult to find an option list that is not shared throughout an entire model range these days. With that said, has Mercedes packed enough new gizmos into its new “C†to keep it at the head of its class?
For 2008, Mercedes introduces its new Multimedia Package through the C-Class. The specific feature it offers that is not yet available on any other model in the Benz lineup is an audio system with CD-ripping capability and a multimedia card reader. The system’s voice recognition software has been upgraded to accept entire words in Navigation mode. Desired radio stations can also be accessed through spoken word while the volume of the system’s voice can be adjusted independently of the stereo volume. The display’s graphics are a step up from those used in BMW’s iDrive. When accessing the system settings, for example, you are treated to an artistic wallpaper of a screwdriver and other various tools. Combined with the more traditional Mercedes cockpit design elements, this control interface creates a very familiar, yet advanced environment.
Courtesy of Consumer Guide
On the flip side of the coin, Mercedes ergonomics can be a bit disconcerting to the unfamiliar driver. The pesky cruise control stalk still likes to impersonate a turn signal lever and will leave an unwary driver discombobulated in the event of a last second decision to turn. The analog climate controls are also not as precise as ones featuring digital temperature readouts (offered by most competitors) and the ***** themselves don’t have the same solid feel as those found in the new Audi A5 and upcoming A4.
Of course a review of a German sports sedan would be remiss if it didn’t evaluate driving dynamics and fun-factor. In that regard, Mercedes has definitely pinned the tail on the beemer. The new “C†uses a steering rack that is “six percent quicker†than its predecessor’s steering rack, according to Mercedes marketing personnel and most importantly quicker than a 328i’s (14.5:1 vs. the beemer’s standard 16.0:1). While it is nice to have statistics on your side, the only way to really determine if the new Baby Benz can best a BMW is to take it to the streets.
Since most 328is in Los Angeles will be equipped with an automatic transmission, it was only fitting to request a C300 Luxury with the optional seven-speed automatic. The top of the line C350 might lose precious points to the BMW335i in the horsepower battle but the C300 is much more closely matched to its rival the 328i (228 hp to the BMW's 230 hp). In fact, with the extra gear in the Mercedes slushbox, you might say the Benz has the advantage over a similarly equipped Bavarian Motor Works product. The seven-speed unit is certainly intelligent. When you plant the accelerator, the shift computer chooses the best gear for the job without futilely engaging all the other gears in between. Furthermore, when sport mode is activated, gears engage even more quickly and with less slippage from the torque converter.
With a front/rear weight distribution equal to a 328i’s, give or take a percentage point, the lithe Mercedes takes a recipe straight from the BMW corner-carving cookbook and serves up a dish of stable handling with minimal body roll in tight turns. The Merc also refuses to bottom out when hustling through the many dip-filled intersections of Santa Monica at speeds that would cause vehicles with inferior chassis to react like bucking broncos.
Now, back to the question concerning the “C†gizmo count. The new C300 may not be the over-engineered marvel the original Baby Benz was. Push-button start? Who needs it? In fact, at this point, many of the novel features found on the 190E have been replaced with more conventional equipment. Driver and passenger headrests are manually operated and two windshield wipers now do the job once done so well by a single high-tech blade. With the C300, Mercedes is saying it has nothing more to prove. Its focus is on doing what Mercedes has always done: Build the most solid cars on the road. To that end, the 2008 C300 Luxury is a mission accomplished.
© Copyright 2011 by canyon-news.com
Kyle's Kars
The 2008 Mercedes Benz C300 Luxury: The Trickle Up Effect Revisited
By Kyle Quesnoy
Apr 13, 2008 - 10:59:57 PM
Courtesy of Roadfly
Unlike other luxury carmakers, Mercedes Benz has shown time and time again that consumers will not have to wait patiently for advanced technology to trickle slowly down through the German luxury brand’s model range. In fact, the forward-thinking Teuton wants to remind the world that innovations can flow upstream as well. Back in the early ‘80s, the compact 190E, known as the “Baby Benz,†was the guinea pig MB used to test its patented 5-link rear suspension. So successful was its engineering, that subsequent models in the Benz stables such as the mid-sized E-Class and full-sized S-Class adopted the multi-link setup soon after.
Today, Mercedes Benz hopes to continue its success albeit unorthodox marketing maneuvers with its revised for 2008 C-Class. Competition in the compact luxury car segment has become fiercer than it was during the decade of decadence, however, with viable contenders now hailing from The Land of the Rising Sun and from our own backyard as well. What appeared to be a huge leap 20 years ago, seems to be more of a baby step in the 21st century as major players from all corners of the globe continue to one-up each other in terms of bringing new technology to the kids table. It is difficult to find an option list that is not shared throughout an entire model range these days. With that said, has Mercedes packed enough new gizmos into its new “C†to keep it at the head of its class?
For 2008, Mercedes introduces its new Multimedia Package through the C-Class. The specific feature it offers that is not yet available on any other model in the Benz lineup is an audio system with CD-ripping capability and a multimedia card reader. The system’s voice recognition software has been upgraded to accept entire words in Navigation mode. Desired radio stations can also be accessed through spoken word while the volume of the system’s voice can be adjusted independently of the stereo volume. The display’s graphics are a step up from those used in BMW’s iDrive. When accessing the system settings, for example, you are treated to an artistic wallpaper of a screwdriver and other various tools. Combined with the more traditional Mercedes cockpit design elements, this control interface creates a very familiar, yet advanced environment.
Courtesy of Consumer Guide
On the flip side of the coin, Mercedes ergonomics can be a bit disconcerting to the unfamiliar driver. The pesky cruise control stalk still likes to impersonate a turn signal lever and will leave an unwary driver discombobulated in the event of a last second decision to turn. The analog climate controls are also not as precise as ones featuring digital temperature readouts (offered by most competitors) and the ***** themselves don’t have the same solid feel as those found in the new Audi A5 and upcoming A4.
Of course a review of a German sports sedan would be remiss if it didn’t evaluate driving dynamics and fun-factor. In that regard, Mercedes has definitely pinned the tail on the beemer. The new “C†uses a steering rack that is “six percent quicker†than its predecessor’s steering rack, according to Mercedes marketing personnel and most importantly quicker than a 328i’s (14.5:1 vs. the beemer’s standard 16.0:1). While it is nice to have statistics on your side, the only way to really determine if the new Baby Benz can best a BMW is to take it to the streets.
Since most 328is in Los Angeles will be equipped with an automatic transmission, it was only fitting to request a C300 Luxury with the optional seven-speed automatic. The top of the line C350 might lose precious points to the BMW335i in the horsepower battle but the C300 is much more closely matched to its rival the 328i (228 hp to the BMW's 230 hp). In fact, with the extra gear in the Mercedes slushbox, you might say the Benz has the advantage over a similarly equipped Bavarian Motor Works product. The seven-speed unit is certainly intelligent. When you plant the accelerator, the shift computer chooses the best gear for the job without futilely engaging all the other gears in between. Furthermore, when sport mode is activated, gears engage even more quickly and with less slippage from the torque converter.
With a front/rear weight distribution equal to a 328i’s, give or take a percentage point, the lithe Mercedes takes a recipe straight from the BMW corner-carving cookbook and serves up a dish of stable handling with minimal body roll in tight turns. The Merc also refuses to bottom out when hustling through the many dip-filled intersections of Santa Monica at speeds that would cause vehicles with inferior chassis to react like bucking broncos.
Now, back to the question concerning the “C†gizmo count. The new C300 may not be the over-engineered marvel the original Baby Benz was. Push-button start? Who needs it? In fact, at this point, many of the novel features found on the 190E have been replaced with more conventional equipment. Driver and passenger headrests are manually operated and two windshield wipers now do the job once done so well by a single high-tech blade. With the C300, Mercedes is saying it has nothing more to prove. Its focus is on doing what Mercedes has always done: Build the most solid cars on the road. To that end, the 2008 C300 Luxury is a mission accomplished.
© Copyright 2011 by canyon-news.com
Last edited by dseag2; 12-05-12 at 07:57 PM.
12-05-12, 08:05 PM
#20
The biggest complaint I've always had with the present IS is the lack of back seat leg room. I'm wondering if extending the wheelbase will address this issue and bring a few badly needed inches to the rear leg room dept?
12-05-12, 08:49 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
The 3 series in particular has never really been a "poor man's BMW". It has attributes that make it more desirable than the 5 series in the sense of a sport sedan because its smaller, better balanced, lighter. I've heard auto journalists refer to the concept that the 3 series is more of a true driver's sport sedan than the 5, especially in the current generation.
I think Lexus would be wise to try and follow along those lines, to not look at the IS or the ES so much as the "entry level" cars, but to focus on what makes them desirable across all price points. Thats why BMW can command $60,000 for a loaded 3 series...even though someone could have a nicely optioned 5 for the same cash.
12-06-12, 06:12 PM
#22
I don't know that I necessarily agree with that.
The 3 series in particular has never really been a "poor man's BMW". It has attributes that make it more desirable than the 5 series in the sense of a sport sedan because its smaller, better balanced, lighter. I've heard auto journalists refer to the concept that the 3 series is more of a true driver's sport sedan than the 5, especially in the current generation.
I think Lexus would be wise to try and follow along those lines, to not look at the IS or the ES so much as the "entry level" cars, but to focus on what makes them desirable across all price points. Thats why BMW can command $60,000 for a loaded 3 series...even though someone could have a nicely optioned 5 for the same cash.
The 3 series in particular has never really been a "poor man's BMW". It has attributes that make it more desirable than the 5 series in the sense of a sport sedan because its smaller, better balanced, lighter. I've heard auto journalists refer to the concept that the 3 series is more of a true driver's sport sedan than the 5, especially in the current generation.
I think Lexus would be wise to try and follow along those lines, to not look at the IS or the ES so much as the "entry level" cars, but to focus on what makes them desirable across all price points. Thats why BMW can command $60,000 for a loaded 3 series...even though someone could have a nicely optioned 5 for the same cash.
As to the 3IS, it will never have as high quality materials, options or size as 4GS. For instance, there is no DRS. A lot less leather will be used. Options that are used, will most likely be lower quality - for instance, it doesnt seem like there will be 18 way seats in the IS.
What 3IS might be is lighter, faster and cheaper... but that does not make it better car. I might get IS300h but I actually want GS450h... I simply cant afford it since it is priced here in Europe so high that I could get beach apartment for the same price... sorry Lexus and My Government!
12-06-12, 06:30 PM
#23
it has crappy cheapo interior not befitting an BMW so I really hope Lexus does not follow BMW at all, whatsoever.
As to the 3IS, it will never have as high quality materials, options or size as 4GS. For instance, there is no DRS. A lot less leather will be used. Options that are used, will most likely be lower quality - for instance, it doesnt seem like there will be 18 way seats in the IS.
What 3IS might be is lighter, faster and cheaper... but that does not make it better car. I might get IS300h but I actually want GS450h... I simply cant afford it since it is priced here in Europe so high that I could get beach apartment for the same price... sorry Lexus and My Government!
As to the 3IS, it will never have as high quality materials, options or size as 4GS. For instance, there is no DRS. A lot less leather will be used. Options that are used, will most likely be lower quality - for instance, it doesnt seem like there will be 18 way seats in the IS.
What 3IS might be is lighter, faster and cheaper... but that does not make it better car. I might get IS300h but I actually want GS450h... I simply cant afford it since it is priced here in Europe so high that I could get beach apartment for the same price... sorry Lexus and My Government!
... a beach apartment for the same price ??? oooooowwwweeeee...
12-06-12, 07:02 PM
#24
Lead Lap
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The IS is a whole other car segment, plus I doubt any "average" consumer would know that your GS is less high tech than their 3IS, its different story between petrol heads because we know about cars, but the "average" consumer that will buy a 3IS will buy one because they want a Lexus badge not because it is more sportier and high tech than your GS, don't trip about it...
Last edited by MjThind; 12-06-12 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Dyslexia kicked in...
12-06-12, 08:32 PM
#25
The IS is a whole other segment of car, plus I doubt any "average" consumer would know that your GS is less high tech than their 3IS, its different story between petrol heads because we know about cars, but the "average" consumer that will buy a 3IS will buy one because they want a Lexus badge not because it is more sportier and high tech than your GS, don't trip about it...
12-06-12, 10:46 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
In fact, the latest review of the 5 series (in a comparison where the GS won, BTW), the author of the article commented that the new 5 series reminded them of a small 7 series instead of a big 5 series...and they meant that as a bad thing.
12-06-12, 10:54 PM
#27
Pole Position
I like the 3 series best out of all the current BMW lines but the interior quality of the F30 is really sub-par compared to the 5 series or for that matter, the rest of the cars in the mid-size luxury segment.
I went to the BMW showroom to check out the competition and sat in both the 5 and 3 series. The 3 series has it all over the 5. The only place that was a letdown was the interior.
Like I've said before, I suspect BMW didn't want to make the 3 series so attractive that it would steal sales away from the 5 series so they deliberately kept the 3 series interior down-market.
I went to the BMW showroom to check out the competition and sat in both the 5 and 3 series. The 3 series has it all over the 5. The only place that was a letdown was the interior.
Like I've said before, I suspect BMW didn't want to make the 3 series so attractive that it would steal sales away from the 5 series so they deliberately kept the 3 series interior down-market.
12-07-12, 06:00 AM
#28
Maybe its different in Europe, but here in the US theres not much of quality difference in the interior between a 3 and 5 series. Read the reviews, the 3 series is pretty universally accepted in the motoring press as being THE ubiquitous BMW sport sedan.
In fact, the latest review of the 5 series (in a comparison where the GS won, BTW), the author of the article commented that the new 5 series reminded them of a small 7 series instead of a big 5 series...and they meant that as a bad thing.
In fact, the latest review of the 5 series (in a comparison where the GS won, BTW), the author of the article commented that the new 5 series reminded them of a small 7 series instead of a big 5 series...and they meant that as a bad thing.
12-07-12, 07:24 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well looking at initial reviews (And they are pre-production) the IS doesn't sound so far like a sportier GS or as well sorted.
And I've said for years the difference between build in a entry level car and mid size car is pretty obvious. Has anyone looked at the difference between just the door panel or center console between the GS and ES? Its obvious the GS was built to a much higher standard.
As stated we all should wish good luck to the GS but seriously it hasn't been sold yet and when it does it won't "outclass" the GS.
And I've said for years the difference between build in a entry level car and mid size car is pretty obvious. Has anyone looked at the difference between just the door panel or center console between the GS and ES? Its obvious the GS was built to a much higher standard.
As stated we all should wish good luck to the GS but seriously it hasn't been sold yet and when it does it won't "outclass" the GS.
12-07-12, 01:02 PM
#30