BMW 535i M Sport vs Lexus GS350 F Sport comparo in Roundel (BMW Car Club) Magazine
01-05-13, 07:25 PM
#16
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01-05-13, 07:29 PM
#17
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Being a long time Lexus fan and just buying a 2013 535i Msport, I find this article to hit very close to home.
I still have a soft sport for Lexus in my heart but the current 4GS front end never seemed coherent with the rest of the car especially the rear and that bothered me. Power, handling and interior were awesome similar to the BMW and sometimes better. I cannot compare the BMW to the older generations bimmers but I find it to be a very capable, tight and fast when needed, especially in SPORT and SPORT+ modes and IMO it looks good in M kit.
Lexus has come a LONG way when it comes to handling and power. To be fair, I had a 2GS and a 3GS and they both lacked soul. Awesome and great cars but NOW I understand why Germans were ALL over them in the handling and power category. 4GS is step in the right direction. I cannot wait for the 5GS (still on the list for me)
I still have a soft sport for Lexus in my heart but the current 4GS front end never seemed coherent with the rest of the car especially the rear and that bothered me. Power, handling and interior were awesome similar to the BMW and sometimes better. I cannot compare the BMW to the older generations bimmers but I find it to be a very capable, tight and fast when needed, especially in SPORT and SPORT+ modes and IMO it looks good in M kit.
Lexus has come a LONG way when it comes to handling and power. To be fair, I had a 2GS and a 3GS and they both lacked soul. Awesome and great cars but NOW I understand why Germans were ALL over them in the handling and power category. 4GS is step in the right direction. I cannot wait for the 5GS (still on the list for me)
01-05-13, 08:04 PM
#18
Being a long time Lexus fan and just buying a 2013 535i Msport, I find this article to hit very close to home.
I still have a soft sport for Lexus in my heart but the current 4GS front end never seemed coherent with the rest of the car especially the rear and that bothered me. Power, handling and interior were awesome similar to the BMW and sometimes better. I cannot compare the BMW to the older generations bimmers but I find it to be a very capable, tight and fast when needed, especially in SPORT and SPORT+ modes and IMO it looks good in M kit.
Lexus has come a LONG way when it comes to handling and power. To be fair, I had a 2GS and a 3GS and they both lacked soul. Awesome and great cars but NOW I understand why Germans were ALL over them in the handling and power category. 4GS is step in the right direction. I cannot wait for the 5GS (still on the list for me)
I still have a soft sport for Lexus in my heart but the current 4GS front end never seemed coherent with the rest of the car especially the rear and that bothered me. Power, handling and interior were awesome similar to the BMW and sometimes better. I cannot compare the BMW to the older generations bimmers but I find it to be a very capable, tight and fast when needed, especially in SPORT and SPORT+ modes and IMO it looks good in M kit.
Lexus has come a LONG way when it comes to handling and power. To be fair, I had a 2GS and a 3GS and they both lacked soul. Awesome and great cars but NOW I understand why Germans were ALL over them in the handling and power category. 4GS is step in the right direction. I cannot wait for the 5GS (still on the list for me)
01-05-13, 09:26 PM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
One thing that bugged me about the 5, is that they are literally everywhere. I had come from a car that was everywhere (the ES), and I wanted something a little more unusual.
I see like 10 5's a day.
I see like 10 5's a day.
01-05-13, 09:40 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
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great review, obviously a bmw slant / viewpoint, but still pretty fair.
gs needs to get the 8 speed auto and do something to the front and rear to make it look more classy.
but the fact that it scores a 'close' comparison in a bmw mag no less is a HUGE compliment to lexus!
gs needs to get the 8 speed auto and do something to the front and rear to make it look more classy.
but the fact that it scores a 'close' comparison in a bmw mag no less is a HUGE compliment to lexus!
01-05-13, 10:51 PM
#21
Pole Position
Also take note that the DRS (rear steering) wasn't equipped in the GS350 F-Sport and addition of that option would still make the GS cheaper than the 535i M-Sport.
Overall, a shockingly balanced comparison considering the source.
STILL, the ending remarks seems like a BMW magazine writer making an apologist statement so that 5 series owners don't feel too bad about their car no longer being THE driver's car
I'll echo earlier posters and say : Who ever thought that there will ever come a day when a Major BMW publication essentially said : " Buy a 5 series for its luxury cause it's no longer tops in driving fun. That belongs to its competitor, the Lexus GS made by Toyota."
01-05-13, 11:41 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
No mention of the notorious turbo lag on the 5er? They pointed out problems with the GS' tranny (warranted, it needs an 8 speed stat), so naturally they should also note the input lag on the BMW's engine.
I would only consider the 5er over a GS if it had the GS' engine instead of the turbo 6, and weighed 200lbs less. Oh and some emotion and expressiveness to the styling wouldn't hurt either.
I would only consider the 5er over a GS if it had the GS' engine instead of the turbo 6, and weighed 200lbs less. Oh and some emotion and expressiveness to the styling wouldn't hurt either.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 01-05-13 at 11:46 PM.
01-06-13, 12:21 AM
#23
Pole Position
What should be concerning for BMW is the hollowing out of its core values.
Used to be that BMW held driving experience as sacrosanct. If it came down to a decision of driveability vs other values like luxury and ease of use, they would opt for driveability any time, in a heartbeat.
Now, in a misguided grab for the sales crown from Mercedes Benz, BMW has compromised its core value and gone for the short-term sales figures. But at what cost?
Sure you've caught the fickle non-enthusiast car market by trying to be all things to all people. The current 5 series basically beats the Mercedes E class at its own game by being more solid, luxurious and tank-like while trying to maintain a tenuous hold on sportyness. That's fine for a short-term goal. But it's also alienated the PASSIONATE core of BMW ENTHUSIASTS who are increasingly finding it difficult to make excuses for the fact that their BMWs no longer drive like the Ultimate Driving Machine. Its these passionate loyalists who drive longterm sales of the brand and BMW is chasing them away in droves.
Right now, perception is lagging reality and it's this ( false) perception that BMWs are the ultimate driving cars that continues to give BMW cachet. This cachet is what is driving short-term sales since the majority of the market are the fickle badge-snobs and wannabes who pay money for a badge and don't bother to do research and to find out the automotive reality.
It'll take about 1-2 generations for perception to catch up to reality and if BMW continues down this dangerous path, it will lose its cachet as "UDM" and with no loyal core of enthusiasts to sustain longterm sales, sales will suddenly bottom out once the majority non-enthusiast market catch on to the truth and BMW loses it cachet.
Right now Lexus is in the opposite situation : the new GS is definitely more spacious, more comfortable and more luxurious than the previous generation, so it has not betrayed its core value of useability and luxury. YET, the 4GS is infinitely better to handle than its predecessor. Hopefully the other core value of longterm reliability is retained.
In Short : BMW has betrayed a core value that took it decades to build just to jump to another even though current sales are based on the "perception" of the former core value. Lexus OTOH has retained its core values while adding another bow to its string (handling and dynamism). If things continue as they are, expect sales trends to reverse ( GS increasing in sales while 5 series starts to bottom out.) It won't be quick and may take place over 1-2 generations of model changes but it will be inevitable.
The only caveat is if BMW steals and manages to appropriate the core value of Mercedes for itself ( Tank Like safety and solidity, Germanic Luxury) and steals away the Mercedes loyalists. In that case, MB is screwed.
Used to be that BMW held driving experience as sacrosanct. If it came down to a decision of driveability vs other values like luxury and ease of use, they would opt for driveability any time, in a heartbeat.
Now, in a misguided grab for the sales crown from Mercedes Benz, BMW has compromised its core value and gone for the short-term sales figures. But at what cost?
Sure you've caught the fickle non-enthusiast car market by trying to be all things to all people. The current 5 series basically beats the Mercedes E class at its own game by being more solid, luxurious and tank-like while trying to maintain a tenuous hold on sportyness. That's fine for a short-term goal. But it's also alienated the PASSIONATE core of BMW ENTHUSIASTS who are increasingly finding it difficult to make excuses for the fact that their BMWs no longer drive like the Ultimate Driving Machine. Its these passionate loyalists who drive longterm sales of the brand and BMW is chasing them away in droves.
Right now, perception is lagging reality and it's this ( false) perception that BMWs are the ultimate driving cars that continues to give BMW cachet. This cachet is what is driving short-term sales since the majority of the market are the fickle badge-snobs and wannabes who pay money for a badge and don't bother to do research and to find out the automotive reality.
It'll take about 1-2 generations for perception to catch up to reality and if BMW continues down this dangerous path, it will lose its cachet as "UDM" and with no loyal core of enthusiasts to sustain longterm sales, sales will suddenly bottom out once the majority non-enthusiast market catch on to the truth and BMW loses it cachet.
Right now Lexus is in the opposite situation : the new GS is definitely more spacious, more comfortable and more luxurious than the previous generation, so it has not betrayed its core value of useability and luxury. YET, the 4GS is infinitely better to handle than its predecessor. Hopefully the other core value of longterm reliability is retained.
In Short : BMW has betrayed a core value that took it decades to build just to jump to another even though current sales are based on the "perception" of the former core value. Lexus OTOH has retained its core values while adding another bow to its string (handling and dynamism). If things continue as they are, expect sales trends to reverse ( GS increasing in sales while 5 series starts to bottom out.) It won't be quick and may take place over 1-2 generations of model changes but it will be inevitable.
The only caveat is if BMW steals and manages to appropriate the core value of Mercedes for itself ( Tank Like safety and solidity, Germanic Luxury) and steals away the Mercedes loyalists. In that case, MB is screwed.
01-06-13, 05:07 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
She said totally unprompted "this is more like a BMW than the new BMWs"...and she has not even driven it yet.
01-06-13, 09:15 AM
#26
I can't tell the difference between a 3 series and 5 series anymore.. That's a negative right there you have to get up close and personal to tell before seeing the rear badge. Lexus is on the right track by keeping similar design language but each model has its own personality. Even the 3IS we can tell will be similar to the 4GS but we will be able to tell them apart easily
01-06-13, 10:00 AM
#27
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I also considered both cars closely and ended up with the 535i msport. I just wanted to address a few things mentioned
1- there is no turbo lag in the 5. Some early 2011 models had a throttle lag that is now gone
2- reliability? Do people still believe that crap? Yes, historically bmw's have had bad reliability while the Japanese brands have enjoyed great reliability, but most modern cars nowadays are reliable. There have been no major issues with the new 5. Solid reliability in the three years the Car has been out. Reliability should not be a major concern with either of these two cars. The BMW actually wins in this category because of the free maintenance.
3- most reviewers have given the handling edge to the gs350. Yes. The gs may handle better on the track and you'll shave a few seconds off your time at the Nuremberg ring. Who cares? If driving on a track was of any concern to me neither one of these two cars would even be in consideration. Both handle well enough but the BMW felt more solid and stable on the highway.
I decided for the BMW for multiple reasons:
1- looks; the 5 looks a lot better to me
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
3- price. I went in expecting the Lexus to be considerably cheaper. However they were not budging much off the MSRP. I was able to get a 5 for well under invoice. MSRP of 65k for 57K
4- I love the low down torque of the 5. The 8 spd auto is nice; I can get 30 mpgs on the highway
At the end of the day both these cars are great, and honestly the fact that the gs can even be compared to the 5 series is a major victory for Lexus.
1- there is no turbo lag in the 5. Some early 2011 models had a throttle lag that is now gone
2- reliability? Do people still believe that crap? Yes, historically bmw's have had bad reliability while the Japanese brands have enjoyed great reliability, but most modern cars nowadays are reliable. There have been no major issues with the new 5. Solid reliability in the three years the Car has been out. Reliability should not be a major concern with either of these two cars. The BMW actually wins in this category because of the free maintenance.
3- most reviewers have given the handling edge to the gs350. Yes. The gs may handle better on the track and you'll shave a few seconds off your time at the Nuremberg ring. Who cares? If driving on a track was of any concern to me neither one of these two cars would even be in consideration. Both handle well enough but the BMW felt more solid and stable on the highway.
I decided for the BMW for multiple reasons:
1- looks; the 5 looks a lot better to me
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
3- price. I went in expecting the Lexus to be considerably cheaper. However they were not budging much off the MSRP. I was able to get a 5 for well under invoice. MSRP of 65k for 57K
4- I love the low down torque of the 5. The 8 spd auto is nice; I can get 30 mpgs on the highway
At the end of the day both these cars are great, and honestly the fact that the gs can even be compared to the 5 series is a major victory for Lexus.
01-06-13, 10:29 AM
#28
I also considered both cars closely and ended up with the 535i msport. I just wanted to address a few things mentioned
1- there is no turbo lag in the 5. Some early 2011 models had a throttle lag that is now gone
2- reliability? Do people still believe that crap? Yes, historically bmw's have had bad reliability while the Japanese brands have enjoyed great reliability, but most modern cars nowadays are reliable. There have been no major issues with the new 5. Solid reliability in the three years the Car has been out. Reliability should not be a major concern with either of these two cars. The BMW actually wins in this category because of the free maintenance.
3- most reviewers have given the handling edge to the gs350. Yes. The gs may handle better on the track and you'll shave a few seconds off your time at the Nuremberg ring. Who cares? If driving on a track was of any concern to me neither one of these two cars would even be in consideration. Both handle well enough but the BMW felt more solid and stable on the highway.
I decided for the BMW for multiple reasons:
1- looks; the 5 looks a lot better to me
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
3- price. I went in expecting the Lexus to be considerably cheaper. However they were not budging much off the MSRP. I was able to get a 5 for well under invoice. MSRP of 65k for 57K
4- I love the low down torque of the 5. The 8 spd auto is nice; I can get 30 mpgs on the highway
At the end of the day both these cars are great, and honestly the fact that the gs can even be compared to the 5 series is a major victory for Lexus.
1- there is no turbo lag in the 5. Some early 2011 models had a throttle lag that is now gone
2- reliability? Do people still believe that crap? Yes, historically bmw's have had bad reliability while the Japanese brands have enjoyed great reliability, but most modern cars nowadays are reliable. There have been no major issues with the new 5. Solid reliability in the three years the Car has been out. Reliability should not be a major concern with either of these two cars. The BMW actually wins in this category because of the free maintenance.
3- most reviewers have given the handling edge to the gs350. Yes. The gs may handle better on the track and you'll shave a few seconds off your time at the Nuremberg ring. Who cares? If driving on a track was of any concern to me neither one of these two cars would even be in consideration. Both handle well enough but the BMW felt more solid and stable on the highway.
I decided for the BMW for multiple reasons:
1- looks; the 5 looks a lot better to me
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
3- price. I went in expecting the Lexus to be considerably cheaper. However they were not budging much off the MSRP. I was able to get a 5 for well under invoice. MSRP of 65k for 57K
4- I love the low down torque of the 5. The 8 spd auto is nice; I can get 30 mpgs on the highway
At the end of the day both these cars are great, and honestly the fact that the gs can even be compared to the 5 series is a major victory for Lexus.
The GS handles great on and off track. Unlike the 5 series, GS did not gain 300 pounds.
Reliability may not be a concern if you lease it. I for instance, buy my cars and I would never buy a BMW. Lease only! BMW should seriously come with a lifetime warranty.
Looks are subjective. The 5 without the MSport pkg looks bland to me. The interior in 5 is nothing to wow about. The nav screen in 5 series looks small and dated, and the seats are not as comfortable. But things like that are more of personal preferences. Just like the reviewer who liked the smaller screen.
GS was always compared to the 5 series. Its just, this is the first time when the GS is beating it
01-06-13, 10:42 AM
#29
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The GS handles great on and off track. Unlike the 5 series, GS did not gain 300 pounds.
i honestly noticed no difference between the two in spirited driving. Maybe some do, but these are ~2 ton luxury barges, not cars you buy if your looking for a nimble car
Reliability may not be a concern if you lease it. I for instance, buy my cars and I would never buy a BMW. Lease only! BMW should seriously come with a lifetime warranty.
who said reliability is not a concern for me? Where are you getting your info that the 5 is unreliable? Please show me some evidence rather than keep repeating the same thing over and over without any evidence to back it up. The new 5 has been a very reliable car with no major issues ; unlike the previous 535 which had a major issue with the fuel pump
Looks are subjective. The 5 without the MSport pkg looks bland to me. The interior in 5 is nothing to wow about. The nav screen in 5 series looks small and dated, and the seats are not as comfortable. But things like that are more of personal preferences. Just like the reviewer who liked the smaller screen.
i agree about the Msport. I wouldn't have purchases without it. But are you serious about the nav screen? The BMW has the second biggest screen next the gs. Dated? Have you seen it? You have honestly lost all credibility with that stupid comment
GS was always compared to the 5 series. Its just, this is the first time when the GS is beating it
i honestly noticed no difference between the two in spirited driving. Maybe some do, but these are ~2 ton luxury barges, not cars you buy if your looking for a nimble car
Reliability may not be a concern if you lease it. I for instance, buy my cars and I would never buy a BMW. Lease only! BMW should seriously come with a lifetime warranty.
who said reliability is not a concern for me? Where are you getting your info that the 5 is unreliable? Please show me some evidence rather than keep repeating the same thing over and over without any evidence to back it up. The new 5 has been a very reliable car with no major issues ; unlike the previous 535 which had a major issue with the fuel pump
Looks are subjective. The 5 without the MSport pkg looks bland to me. The interior in 5 is nothing to wow about. The nav screen in 5 series looks small and dated, and the seats are not as comfortable. But things like that are more of personal preferences. Just like the reviewer who liked the smaller screen.
i agree about the Msport. I wouldn't have purchases without it. But are you serious about the nav screen? The BMW has the second biggest screen next the gs. Dated? Have you seen it? You have honestly lost all credibility with that stupid comment
GS was always compared to the 5 series. Its just, this is the first time when the GS is beating it
01-06-13, 10:49 AM
#30
Pole Position
2- reliability? Do people still believe that crap? Yes, historically bmw's have had bad reliability while the Japanese brands have enjoyed great reliability, but most modern cars nowadays are reliable. There have been no major issues with the new 5. Solid reliability in the three years the Car has been out. Reliability should not be a major concern with either of these two cars. The BMW actually wins in this category because of the free maintenance.
3- most reviewers have given the handling edge to the gs350. Yes. The gs may handle better on the track and you'll shave a few seconds off your time at the Nuremberg ring. Who cares? If driving on a track was of any concern to me neither one of these two cars would even be in consideration. Both handle well enough but the BMW felt more solid and stable on the highway.
1- looks; the 5 looks a lot better to me
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
2- interior was nicer in the 5. The idrive was a lot easier to drive than that mouse thingie.
3- price. I went in expecting the Lexus to be considerably cheaper. However they were not budging much off the MSRP. I was able to get a 5 for well under invoice. MSRP of 65k for 57K
Look. There's no discounting the fact that the F10 5 series is a great car for its time and that it's the right car for many people. But a classic like the E39 5 series? Not by a long shot. That car was considered the most complete car of its time and will be considered a legend and a classic in the hearts of any true blue car enthusiast.
Enjoy your car. No car in this segment is bad. Just that IMO, ironically, in this day and age, the car that comes closest to inheriting the mantle from the E39 5 series as the most complete car in the world isn't a BMW, but is the Lexus GS 4th Generation.