how much crap do you guys get for owning a Lexus?
01-19-13, 08:25 PM
#76
Lexus Test Driver
When I was at GNC buying some protein powder tonight, I had a conversation with the guy that worked there about cars. I told him how much I loved the new GS and he was an Audi 8 fan.
He told me how he leased his Audi and swore it was the best car he had ever driven. I told him about the problems that are associated with German cars, but he was okay with it because he didn't worry about maintenance since he was leasing.
I didn't want to get into it too much about the problems with leasing, but I made damn sure that he understood how reliable the Lexus brand is known to be.
A nice conversation.
He told me how he leased his Audi and swore it was the best car he had ever driven. I told him about the problems that are associated with German cars, but he was okay with it because he didn't worry about maintenance since he was leasing.
I didn't want to get into it too much about the problems with leasing, but I made damn sure that he understood how reliable the Lexus brand is known to be.
A nice conversation.
01-19-13, 09:43 PM
#77
Lexus Fanatic
01-19-13, 11:46 PM
#78
I do really love the BMWs and came very very close to getting a 535i. I am a total techy and there are some options on the BMW that you can't get on the Lexus. I also love the BMW 8spd trans, it's buttery smooth. I do also thing that you get a little bit more prestige with the BMW too.
With all that said I bought the GS. Why, it came down to comfort, drivability, and price. The comfort of the Lexus luxury package seats are unbelievable!!! The easy to drive nature of the Lexus was way better the the 5. The Lexus feels like you are just driving a much smaller car in compared to the 5. And then there's price. I had my 535i configured to around 78,000.
With all that said I bought the GS. Why, it came down to comfort, drivability, and price. The comfort of the Lexus luxury package seats are unbelievable!!! The easy to drive nature of the Lexus was way better the the 5. The Lexus feels like you are just driving a much smaller car in compared to the 5. And then there's price. I had my 535i configured to around 78,000.
01-20-13, 03:30 AM
#79
Pole Position
I'm not a one-eyed cheerleader for Lexus. Are there things that Lexus can do better? Sure. Are there features that the competitor implements better? Yes.
Are there (shock and horror) car models in the Infiniti/German/Jaguar line-up that I might find more desirable than its Lexus counterpart? Indubitably. (4 series and CLS comes to mind). I have made no secret of the fact that I was disappointed in the previous 3rd gen GS when it came out. The 4th gen GS however is another matter and justifiably gets all the props it deserves.
I am secure enough in myself that I could care less what they try to label Lexus as even though I currently drive Lexus. But it's precisely because I try to be fair minded that all this sloganism and stereotyping by the anti-Lexus brigade should not go unchallenged.
As a true car enthusiast, I believe in giving any car a fair go and coming in without pre-judging a car before at least test-driving it. Those who go about belittling Lexus and its aficionados betray themselves as badge snobs who care more about what others think about them than in appreciating a car on its own merits.
Are there (shock and horror) car models in the Infiniti/German/Jaguar line-up that I might find more desirable than its Lexus counterpart? Indubitably. (4 series and CLS comes to mind). I have made no secret of the fact that I was disappointed in the previous 3rd gen GS when it came out. The 4th gen GS however is another matter and justifiably gets all the props it deserves.
I am secure enough in myself that I could care less what they try to label Lexus as even though I currently drive Lexus. But it's precisely because I try to be fair minded that all this sloganism and stereotyping by the anti-Lexus brigade should not go unchallenged.
As a true car enthusiast, I believe in giving any car a fair go and coming in without pre-judging a car before at least test-driving it. Those who go about belittling Lexus and its aficionados betray themselves as badge snobs who care more about what others think about them than in appreciating a car on its own merits.
Last edited by natnut; 01-20-13 at 03:35 AM.
01-20-13, 10:20 AM
#80
Lexus Test Driver
I'll let the guru explain it. He does it better than I can. I am only an egg. 
http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?...ntItemId=10367
http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?...ntItemId=10367
QUESTION: Listener asks Dave to break down the mathematical flaws in a car lease.
ANSWER: A car fleece is basically renting a car. You pay $400 a month and at the end of the new car lease, you turn it back in. If you want to buy it, you are buying it for what they estimate at the beginning of the fleece to be the market value. At the end of the lease, it’s called the residual value. If you pay $400 a month for 60 months, you pay $24,000 before turning it in. The car will not have gone down in value more than that, because the car companies would lose money if it did. When they get the car back, you will have paid them more than the car has depreciated during that time.
During that time, you’re maintaining the car as if you owned it. You’ll get charged for excessive wear and tear, or if you put too many miles on it. If you rent it for $24,000 and it went down $15,000 in value, then it cost me $9,000 to rent this car for this period of time. That is their profit during that time.
Another thing is that the interest rates on a vehicle lease are not disclosed because the Federal Trade Commission has determined that this is not a debt, so there is no federal disclosure involved. Therefore, you have no truth in lending disclosure sheet. The interest rates you get charged are unbelievably high. That’s where you’ll realize you got screwed over.
People get sold automobile leases because they are told that it’s what sophisticated people do. But as it turns out, the car companies make more money on leasing you the car than if you bought the car with cash, according to the National Auto Dealers Association. Broke people think ‘how much down and how much a month’. Rich people think ‘how much’. If you can’t pay cash for a car, then ride a bicycle. But don’t lease a car..
ANSWER: A car fleece is basically renting a car. You pay $400 a month and at the end of the new car lease, you turn it back in. If you want to buy it, you are buying it for what they estimate at the beginning of the fleece to be the market value. At the end of the lease, it’s called the residual value. If you pay $400 a month for 60 months, you pay $24,000 before turning it in. The car will not have gone down in value more than that, because the car companies would lose money if it did. When they get the car back, you will have paid them more than the car has depreciated during that time.
During that time, you’re maintaining the car as if you owned it. You’ll get charged for excessive wear and tear, or if you put too many miles on it. If you rent it for $24,000 and it went down $15,000 in value, then it cost me $9,000 to rent this car for this period of time. That is their profit during that time.
Another thing is that the interest rates on a vehicle lease are not disclosed because the Federal Trade Commission has determined that this is not a debt, so there is no federal disclosure involved. Therefore, you have no truth in lending disclosure sheet. The interest rates you get charged are unbelievably high. That’s where you’ll realize you got screwed over.
People get sold automobile leases because they are told that it’s what sophisticated people do. But as it turns out, the car companies make more money on leasing you the car than if you bought the car with cash, according to the National Auto Dealers Association. Broke people think ‘how much down and how much a month’. Rich people think ‘how much’. If you can’t pay cash for a car, then ride a bicycle. But don’t lease a car..
01-20-13, 10:34 AM
#81
For me leasing works.
I don't keep a car long.One,two years.Cheaper for me to lease.Leasing forces me to keep the car 2.5(early out promo)-3 years. Rather than pay for the entire vehicle,I instead agree to pay for what I'll drive in the lease period.
I'd never keep a car 4,5+ years.
No OCD like when I owned.I treat it like the rental it is.So no stress which is great.
and I'll add no carfax hit in case you have an accident...
I don't keep a car long.One,two years.Cheaper for me to lease.Leasing forces me to keep the car 2.5(early out promo)-3 years. Rather than pay for the entire vehicle,I instead agree to pay for what I'll drive in the lease period.
I'd never keep a car 4,5+ years.
No OCD like when I owned.I treat it like the rental it is.So no stress which is great.
and I'll add no carfax hit in case you have an accident...
Last edited by Joeb427; 01-20-13 at 11:19 AM.
01-20-13, 04:43 PM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
I'll let the guru explain it. He does it better than I can. I am only an egg.
http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?...ntItemId=10367
http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?...ntItemId=10367
One big flaw in this argument is that you can trade in or sell a leased car, you dont have to turn it in. I traded in my ES 6 months before the lease was up and I made $1,000 on it, and could have made more had I wanted to sell it myself. Plus I can deduct the cost of a lease from my taxes as a business expense, if I purchased and depreciated it I would have to give much of that depreciation back since I don't keep a car more than 3 years. At the end of the lease you have to make a judgement, can you trade the car in and get more an the residual, do you have overage fees, etc. if you trade it in, no excess wear and tear and no mileage penalty.
Hs also talking about a 60 month lease which nobody does, or should do. Leases over 36 months are generally not a good deal.
If you are going to keep the car, I do agree you should buy it from the outset. But if you are going to trade it in 3 years, leasing may make sense especially if you own a business.
The interest rates are absolutely disclosed, it's the money factor and you multiply at by 2400 and becomes an interest rate. If you know how to calculate a lease its very transparent. No truth in lending...you just have to know what you're doing.
I would never pay cash for a car, especially not with see ridiculously low interest rates my money stays invested and growing, not buried in a depreciating asset like a car.
Last edited by SW17LS; 01-20-13 at 05:00 PM.
01-20-13, 07:21 PM
#84
Lexus Test Driver
Dave Ramsey and I disagree about a great many things, this is one of them. Personally...if Dave Ramsey is talking...I tune out. Anybody that claims to have all the answers when it really is such an individual thing, financial planning, is nothing but a charlatan trying to sell books, IMHO. One size does not fit all. Suze Orman is the same way.
One big flaw in this argument is that you can trade in or sell a leased car, you dont have to turn it in. I traded in my ES 6 months before the lease was up and I made $1,000 on it, and could have made more had I wanted to sell it myself. Plus I can deduct the cost of a lease from my taxes as a business expense, if I purchased and depreciated it I would have to give much of that depreciation back since I don't keep a car more than 3 years. At the end of the lease you have to make a judgement, can you trade the car in and get more an the residual, do you have overage fees, etc. if you trade it in, no excess wear and tear and no mileage penalty.
Hs also talking about a 60 month lease which nobody does, or should do. Leases over 36 months are generally not a good deal.
If you are going to keep the car, I do agree you should buy it from the outset. But if you are going to trade it in 3 years, leasing may make sense especially if you own a business.
The interest rates are absolutely disclosed, it's the money factor and you multiply at by 2400 and becomes an interest rate. If you know how to calculate a lease its very transparent. No truth in lending...you just have to know what you're doing.
I would never pay cash for a car, especially not with see ridiculously low interest rates my money stays invested and growing, not buried in a depreciating asset like a car.
One big flaw in this argument is that you can trade in or sell a leased car, you dont have to turn it in. I traded in my ES 6 months before the lease was up and I made $1,000 on it, and could have made more had I wanted to sell it myself. Plus I can deduct the cost of a lease from my taxes as a business expense, if I purchased and depreciated it I would have to give much of that depreciation back since I don't keep a car more than 3 years. At the end of the lease you have to make a judgement, can you trade the car in and get more an the residual, do you have overage fees, etc. if you trade it in, no excess wear and tear and no mileage penalty.
Hs also talking about a 60 month lease which nobody does, or should do. Leases over 36 months are generally not a good deal.
If you are going to keep the car, I do agree you should buy it from the outset. But if you are going to trade it in 3 years, leasing may make sense especially if you own a business.
The interest rates are absolutely disclosed, it's the money factor and you multiply at by 2400 and becomes an interest rate. If you know how to calculate a lease its very transparent. No truth in lending...you just have to know what you're doing.
I would never pay cash for a car, especially not with see ridiculously low interest rates my money stays invested and growing, not buried in a depreciating asset like a car.
Is he making money selling books and his program? Of course, he's a businessman. The fact is that his financial planning advice has helped thousands of people get out of debt. He teaches people stuff that anyone can find if they do the right research, and he admits that. But for people that don't have the wherewithal to do the research, his ideas are beneficial to many.
I'm glad to hear that what you're doing works for you. Sorry, if I sound like I'm preaching, but his plan has helped me and in turn, I volunteer my time at church facilitating his Financial Peace University class that has been helping others that are in debt.
01-20-13, 07:44 PM
#85
Lexus Fanatic
For people deep in debt that don't have investment money, his advice is spot on. Leasing a car for people that are over their heads in debt is a bad idea. For someone like you that is out of debt, leasing a car may work. Not everyone has the investment cash to use like you appear to have.
If you're in debt, you need to get out of debt, buying a $60,000 car in any way would be a mistake.
Debt is not a bad thing, leverage is an important tool in any financial plan. If you can borrow money to make a big purchase and that costs you less than utilizing your own funds (meaning your returns are more than the cost of the debt), then that's a smart thing to do. Mortgage debt for instance is tax deductible (at least for now). Debt is a financial management tool.
Blanket statements like "debt is bad", "leasing is bad" irritate me.
01-20-13, 07:49 PM
#86
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (20)
Debt is not a bad thing, leverage is an important tool in any financial plan. If you can borrow money to make a big purchase and that costs you less than utilizing your own funds (meaning your returns are more than the cost of the debt), then that's a smart thing to do. Mortgage debt for instance is tax deductible (at least for now). Debt is a financial management tool.
Blanket statements like "debt is bad", "leasing is bad" irritate me.
01-20-13, 09:08 PM
#87
Lexus Test Driver
I agree 100%, but for you or him to make a blanket statement like "leasing is a bad deal, or there are problems with leasing" is more than a little ridiculous. I could have written a check for my Lexus, as I assume a lot of us here could, to say that we did something stupid by leasing when you don't have any information about our situations would be unfair.
If you're in debt, you need to get out of debt, buying a $60,000 car in any way would be a mistake.
Debt is not a bad thing, leverage is an important tool in any financial plan. If you can borrow money to make a big purchase and that costs you less than utilizing your own funds (meaning your returns are more than the cost of the debt), then that's a smart thing to do. Mortgage debt for instance is tax deductible (at least for now). Debt is a financial management tool.
Blanket statements like "debt is bad", "leasing is bad" irritate me.
If you're in debt, you need to get out of debt, buying a $60,000 car in any way would be a mistake.
Debt is not a bad thing, leverage is an important tool in any financial plan. If you can borrow money to make a big purchase and that costs you less than utilizing your own funds (meaning your returns are more than the cost of the debt), then that's a smart thing to do. Mortgage debt for instance is tax deductible (at least for now). Debt is a financial management tool.
Blanket statements like "debt is bad", "leasing is bad" irritate me.
Yes, for someone deep in debt, buying a Lexus would not be advisable.
Yes, mortgage interest is tax deductible, but so are charitable gifts. I advise people that can pay off their mortgage to do so. If they really need that tax write off, then give it to someone that needs it more than a bank or mortgage company might.
Sorry, of you are irritated by my statements, but for people that are deeply in debt, more debt is not just bad, it is very bad.
I advise people to get out of debt and stop paying interest rates that they can't afford because their income level doesn't add up.
Borrowing money irritates me, that's why I don't do it any more.
01-20-13, 09:38 PM
#89
Racer
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Had a good debate with my gf's friend (female, 23 yrs) on the way back from dinner yesterday. She began it by saying that lexus is just a glorified Toyota. I didn't back down one inch, but neither did she.
Her essential point is, she doesn't see why she should pay thousands more for a car that is made by Toyota, and when I explained that aside from the ES and LX, their other 5 lexus models are distinct and complete different fundamental designs with different powerplants, suspension, etc, she still went back to just saying it didn't matter. She agreed when I said that Infiniti is Nissan, Acura is Honda, Etc, but she'd rather drive a 1960's America muscle car because that "isn't pretending to be something else". (She drives an 05 wrangler. Having been in it before, it is a very rough car...)
I'll go ahead and say, "to each his own", onembreakingnpoint in the argument was when I told her that (as she was talking up porche) that they were just VWs, and she said "i still like porche more as they are way different from VWs" when I snapped back: " we'll then your argument is flawed, as I feel an SC400 is way different from a Camry or corolla, period."
Given my age, and life experience vs her, this may not be a prime example of an even fight, but often the result of someone who simply isn't financially stable trying to convince themselves that something out of reach is not worth it.
Her essential point is, she doesn't see why she should pay thousands more for a car that is made by Toyota, and when I explained that aside from the ES and LX, their other 5 lexus models are distinct and complete different fundamental designs with different powerplants, suspension, etc, she still went back to just saying it didn't matter. She agreed when I said that Infiniti is Nissan, Acura is Honda, Etc, but she'd rather drive a 1960's America muscle car because that "isn't pretending to be something else". (She drives an 05 wrangler. Having been in it before, it is a very rough car...)
I'll go ahead and say, "to each his own", onembreakingnpoint in the argument was when I told her that (as she was talking up porche) that they were just VWs, and she said "i still like porche more as they are way different from VWs" when I snapped back: " we'll then your argument is flawed, as I feel an SC400 is way different from a Camry or corolla, period."
Given my age, and life experience vs her, this may not be a prime example of an even fight, but often the result of someone who simply isn't financially stable trying to convince themselves that something out of reach is not worth it.
Last edited by SC400-V8; 01-20-13 at 09:45 PM.
01-20-13, 09:44 PM
#90
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, mortgage interest is tax deductible, but so are charitable gifts. I advise people that can pay off their mortgage to do so. If they really need that tax write off, then give it to someone that needs it more than a bank or mortgage company might.
Why would i want to sink my own half a million dollars into my house, simply to avoid paying 3.25% interest, interest that is tax deductible so the functional rate is probably 2.5% maybe. I earn more than that return on investments. I pay the absolute minimum mortgage payments I can and invest the rest. If you could still get an interest only mortgage I would.
Now, if mortgage interest were 15% we'd have to reevaluate, but its not. At any time I can make a shift from being leveraged to being deleveraged if something shifts.
Its not about "needing a deduction", its about making debt work for me. If I pay my mortgage off and give charitable donations that still costs me a boatload more money than the way I have it structured. If the money is sitting in my house or my car, its not doing anything for me other than making me feel like I "own" something.
Sorry, of you are irritated by my statements, but for people that are deeply in debt, more debt is not just bad, it is very bad.
I advise people to get out of debt and stop paying interest rates that they can't afford because their income level doesn't add up.
I advise people to get out of debt and stop paying interest rates that they can't afford because their income level doesn't add up.
Borrowing money irritates me, that's why I don't do it any more.
I mean...I have investments right now making 16% returns. Why would I want to take $60,000 out of that just to avoid paying 1.8% interest on a car loan? Or 2.5% effective interest on a home loan?
Essentially, you're paying about 13% interest on that $60,000 you used to buy your Lexus because its not invested properly making you money. Whereas, my $60,000 is EARNING me 13% interest because I leased my Lexus.
Like I said, it should be about financial management, interest only mortgages, negative amortization loans, auto leasing, all financial management tools. Where people get into trouble is when they use these tools to buy things they could not otherwise afford. Thats not the case with everybody though, understand that.
Last edited by SW17LS; 01-20-13 at 09:55 PM.