bclexus

If Your Mechanic Tells You Any of These Things, It's Time to Shop Around for a New Mechanic

#17 "We should flush your fluid (or it will fail)."The fluid flush should be called the wallet flush. They are almost never needed, especially as routine maintenance, and can cause damage. If there is a sample of old versus new fluid out somewhere conveniently for you to see, you'll probably get the sales pitch. But if you are being pressured to get a fluid flush or are told you should do it, consider another mechanic. If someone tells you that something will fail without a flush, definitely go somewhere else. When creating your maintenance schedule, vehicle manufacturers knew that some of the old stuff remains when you drain fluid.

Fluid flushing as routine maintenance can cause problems by dislodging deposits that aren't doing any harm but then get stuck in sensors or fluid passages. Some flushes use chemicals or detergents that contaminate internal surfaces and sensors, causing failures or warning lights later.

You might actually need a fluid flush when a component fails catastrophically, such as if the transmission fails and produces containments in the system or other systems. The manufacturer will have specific requirements for flushing the system, often only using new fluid (no chemicals).

Reference: https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-arti...-mechanic.html

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

I rest my case. With automobile fluids.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

What would Aisin know?

Closing argument: With expert documentation. Fact vs hearsay. The Jury is out.

bclexus

You unconditionally failed to adequately present your case!

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

"Who is AISIN" closed the door on you for me. Don't try something you can't win!

bclexus

@jgscott - Actually, you should be reprimanded by the court for making false statements. You have lost this case badly!

Allow me to explain for your own benefit and for the express benefit of others that may be interested in this topic.

The Aisin advertisement (image below) is nothing more than a disguised advertisement for Aisin's own branded ATF.

Aisin has shamefully chosen to advertise their own brand of ATF with a fictitious remark on their transmission fluid advertisement that says; 'Specialist Recommends'. What does that even mean? It means that Aisin has fabricated an untruth by a made-up misleading remark from a mysterious so-called 'specialist' that implies transmission fluid should be changed every 2 years or 20,000km. Is that what Aisin really recommends? Not at all!

It is very obvious that Aisin did not state that transmission fluid should be changed every 2 years or 20,000km. Only some make-believe 'specialist' supposedly said it - who knows, maybe 50 years ago. Aisin knows full-well that is simply incorrect and a purposely camouflaged quote that Aisin can hide behind. Aisin knows better than to state that malarkey themselves! Aisin is just using the public's inexperience and lack of logical reasoning to promote the use of their branded ATF.

Let it be known that Aisin is absolutely not recommending to change transmission fluid every 2 years or 20,000km, or for that matter at any particular time period or mileage. It may look like they are to you and to the other uninformed people, but in actuality they have probably done more damage to themselves by misrepresenting the truth. That same plight may apply to you as well for continuing your weak argument against the recommendation of Toyota Motor Corporation and the Lexus Division not to change the transmission fluid.

The bottom line is this - All Aisin wanted to accomplish with this Aisin ATF advertisement (image below) is to promote their own branded transmission fluid - nothing more, nothing less...The unscrupulous way they did it is another matter entirely...

If you'll open your eyes and mind you should be willing to accept the absolute fact that Toyota/Lexus does not recommend servicing the GS 350 transmission at any time or mileage by changing the transmission fluid. That said, if you can magically produce Lexus' recommended service schedule to change the automatic transmission fluid in a Lexus 4GS GS 350 made for U.S. delivery (which has an Aisin manufactured automatic transmission) I'll gladly be very willing to reconsider my artfully presented case and my personal stand on the matter.

But, in the meantime - until that happens - I'll be celebrating my win.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

See Post #211. I gave you a Like. Plus the above last post, you are a winner. So lets give it a rest.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Just to be very clear, the edit comment on the bad info that jgscott for some reason highlighted was NOT related to the information that remained in the post. It was for another unrelated comment entirely which was removed.

In general I agree with BC's comments on the Lexus dealer ad. Their master techs should be very aware the transmission flushes on Lexus transmissions often cause more issues than they solve and promoting them I find extremely problematic. Flushes are a moneymaking venture and detrimental to Lexus owners.

JeffKeryk

There are flushes and there are spill-and-fill services. Lexus claims their transmissions have "lifetime fluid". Can you define lifetime for me?
I have to believe the biggest problem with a transmission service is improper fluid level check.
Why would every car company in the world provide a service interval but not Toyota/Lexus?

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

you can google it if you want a definition lol

Lexus is not the only one doing Lifetime fills, have seen it on Bmw, Mercedes, Audi, jaguar and others.

my belief is it’s ultimately a cost cutting and advertising measure. Synthetic fluids have improved over recent years and many manufacturers now offer free service within a good portion of their warranty period. ‘Lifetime’ means they don’t need to pay to service it during that period. Most modern transmissions won’t have any problems getting to 100k on the oem fluid or well beyond.

However at some point without preventative maintenance and new fluids you likely will have a real repair on your hands, if something else major doesn’t break first.

IMO if you plan to keep your car and drive it for 100k miles+, I’d personally change it with a drain and fill method at 60 or 70k miles.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Dave, this is what I was consistently told by a few Dealers and Transmission shops about flushes.

-They say that to do a flush on a car that has say under 50k miles is ok, after that not such a good idea.

-The flush replenishes all new fluid throughout the entire Trans and system unlike each drain and fill that only drains a particle amount.

-Many Trans have been flushes with those machine that have gone 200k+ that have experienced zero problems.

-Its also stated by both Dealers and Transmission shop that many come in for a flush, only because they are already experiencing a Transmission problem. Sometimes the flush resolves it, sometimes the problem is actually the transmission going bad already, in spite of the Lifetime fluid. Thus... there was a flush and now later the Trans goes bad, that was already on the way out.

-Just a few years back in spite of the Toyota Lifetime fluid claim, Toyota/Lexus was still recommending fluid exchange service, then all of a sudden they claimed not needed?

-For the same Lexus's, same model, same Trans, same fluid, in other countries the owners book and maintenance recommendation stated by Lexus says to change the Lifetime fluid? Why?

-Also that its been determined the the WS Toyota fluid is Not actually fully synthetic at all by it make up, that in fact Toyota saved Millions of dollars from

-EPA cost in the US by making the no disposal Lifetime claim.


Now with that, I have No affiliation with Nalley Lexus at all, but could they just be continuing on with the previous Lexus recommended service as it was prior? IDK?
Also can we find Transmission problems even here on CL of those that have the Lifetime fluids, in say the IS350 or 3rd Gen GS that has the same trans and Lifetime claimed fluid. Yes we can.

With that, would I do a Flush, No, but it's controversial if you look at the info Lexus themselves state about Lifetime fluid. Lets also be aware that if a in Warranty Lexus customer comes in with a Transmission problem currently. Lexus will attempt in most case to flush and/or change fluid. It would seem to me that if it was Not serviceable (per Lexus). They they would automatically just put in a New replacement Transmission, and never touch the fluid in the old one. But they do.

All Trans fluids get to boiling temps, and freezing temps, contains wear materials and metals, were designed with filtration material. How could renewed fluid if done correctly hurt?

JeffKeryk

We are mostly in synch, but there are a few things... WS is not a synthetic, and I am not sure all the car companies you mentioned are currently recommending lifetime transmission fluid.
Apologies, I jumped the gun on asking for a definition of "lifetime fluid". You didn't claim that. Googling it up returns about 11,600,000 responses.
IMO, the most important trans service is the 1st one as it removes break in materials.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

yep, I should have said modern fluids and transmissions not ‘synthetic’. On the other makes doing the lifetime sealed transmissions you can google them up if you want. I did and found references to all of them using it on some models when I searched. You’ll also find a lot of secondary sources having the exact same discussions that we are in this thread related to other marques. Examples
https://blog.fcpeuro.com/bmw-lifetim...-isnt-lifetime
https://schnellerbmw.com/services/bmw-lifetime-fluids/

You Tube

etc etc. it’s not just Lexus and Toyota doing this, it’s an industry wide trend.

JeffKeryk

From the article posted by DaveGS4 in post #236:
"Here at FCP Euro, we have an extremely close relationship with ZF, who is the supplier of 6HP and 8HP transmissions to BMW. BMW rates these transmissions for a "lifetime fill," however, through our channels at ZF and speaking with the engineers of those transmissions, we've learned that the transmissions are tested to 100,000 miles with an "acceptable rate of failure" on the original fill. 100,000 miles is BMW's definition of what a "lifetime fill" and that's passed the extended warranty and "good-will" repair limit, meaning a failure after that is no longer BMW's responsibility. In the case of the 6HP/8HP, ZF actually has a published service interval for those transmissions which completely contradicts BMW's service information with an interval of 8 years/80,000km (~50,000 miles). This information supersedes BMW's "lifetime fill" rating."

The term "lifetime" is ambigous at best; more like deception if you ask me.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

This reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the Chemical Engineers of Blackstone Oil analysis. Most of them actually own and drive Toyotas.

I asked about the 10k oil intervals. They said for the most part with good oil they were ok. I asked them if their cars had 10k oil change recommendations. They said yes. I asked if based on what they saw they changed at 10k? They said no, they change at 6.5k-7k. lol!