bclexus

I do not like being misled, tricked, deceived, defrauded, duped, hoodwinked, swindled, flim-flamed or victimized. If I know about the 'issue' ahead of time, then I can make a decision on whether I can resolve the issue and live with the results. BUT, if I am not told about the 'issue' ahead of time when it is known, then I WILL have a problem with it.

Just like there are certain things that must be disclosed when selling real estate, different states require that repairs to new vehicles above a certain amount must be disclosed. When buying a new home it is common practice to have it inspected by a licensed impartial professional inspector. When buying a new vehicle it is always inspected by the authorized dealer selling you the car - which is something consumers should be able to trust. When you visit an authorized Breitling watch dealer and buy a new $20,000 Breitling watch, you expect the watch to be in brand new, and in mint condition. You do not expect to learn after the purchase that the watch had its original stem cap or strap replaced. When I buy a new vehicle I expect the vehicle to be in mint condition. And if there happens to be anything done to the vehicle that prevents it from being in factory mint condition (like REPAINTING ANYTHING) I expect to be told about it beforehand so I can make a decision (with that knowledge in mind) before I agree to purchase the vehicle.

SW17LS

Neither do I, again though you are assuming that the dealer did any of those things. Like Joe Z posted, it could have happened at transit before the car ever made it to the dealer. When I pointed out the damage to my bumper, you could tell by the look on everybody's faces, they didn't know.

People have a propensity to automatically assume people are out to trick them, and more times than not thats not the case.

Now we're talking about what I do for a living. This is a fundamental flaw in your logic. If the seller of a home you were buying chose to inspect it themselves and say "hey, its all good!" would you accept that? Not unless you're crazy. The pre delivery inspection that a dealer does when they take a car in is VERY cursory, its done by lot porters who may not even speak english, its not a "impartial inspection". Two entirely different situations.

Its the consumers job to go over their vehicle before taking delivery of it. Thats what I do, and I found a damaged bumper before I took delivery. Many people may not have.

Then you should always pay for an impartial inspection of every vehicle you purchase, especially if you aren't willing to closely examine it yourself and you're going to rely on the dealer to look for problems for themselves. Those inspectors exist.

The world is what it is guys.

bclexus

Steve - The 'flaw' in your rebuttal is this - if the OP's bumper on his brand new car was ALREADY repainted, then somebody at one of the dealerships had to know. That is far different from a brand new car having a scratch or ding that no one had noticed yet, but was discovered later.

That repainted bumper did not mysteriously get taken to the body shop, taped-up, sanded-down and repainted without someone at one of the two dealerships knowing full-well it was being done. (And I don't care which dealership did it.) That REPAIR is something I firmly believe should have been disclosed to any potential buyer of this vehicle before purchase.

bclexus

That's ridiculous to think one should have to do that when purchasing a brand vehicle from the authorized dealer.

SW17LS

I agree that its most likely the dealership did know, but you did not read what Joe Z posted:

He even requoted it later and added:

As said above, they very well may not have known, and as you said, KY law states they only have to disclose damage over $1,000. A business or dealership is not going to do "what you think is right" they're going to do what they are required to do by law. If they don't have to disclose it, they're not going to disclose it.

Maybe so, but if you 100% absolutely want to be sure that the car you are buying has never had a part replaced or any damage repaired as you stated, the onus for discovery is on you as the buyer. You provided the law in that particular state (some states have no $1,000 limit FYI), your expectations is that ANY damage should be disclosed to you, that is a greater that the requirements placed on the dealer by law...and greater than what you can fairly expect due to that. Its your responsibility to discover something deeper than what the seller is required to disclose by law.

bclexus

I strongly suspect that one of the two dealerships had the repair work done. But, on the outside chance that some port body shop Lexus may use to repair damaged cars (that's a new one on me) may have repaired the vehicle, don't you think that Lexus would track this event with paperwork and advise the receiving dealership what had been done to this particular vehicle? If not, I would be extremely surprised.

I am the one who provided the information about the Kentucky statute pertaining to disclosure. That is the minimum standards. That does not mean that Lexus standards are minimum. I'd like to think Lexus is a few notches above the minimum. And, I suspect the Kentucky Lexus dealership would probably think their standards are above the minimum also.

SW17LS

I agree.

That may be what you would expect, but I think you're going to be disappointed. Lexus dealers are just car dealerships, they on the surface have "better customer service", but at this point they are all owned by large companies that own many dealers, and Lexus has little control over how they operate (you can thank the Auto Dealership lobby for that). As a consumer you should never assume that someone you purchase anything from has anything but their own interests as their focus.

I've been a Lexus owner for 17 years. I have completed the purchase of 6 different Lexus vehicles in that time. I have used several dealerships, I have had good service and bad service, but in the rare occasions trouble has happened and I have needed a dealer to really step up...they have always let me down by showing me that there are limits to what they will do to please a customer, and a lot of times those limits are really low.

KJD3

I work at the Toyota plant in Kentucky where they're getting ready to build the ES this fall. On every single ES that had been built during trials shipping line as put plastic on the front bumper. I can say with out a doubt that if Lexus is going to do that on a vehicle that is built in the US and is US bound than I bet that there is even more protection put on the ones coming from Japan. I'm not ruling out the fact that it may have been damaged during the logistical period of transport, but it's unlikely. I see how they treat the Camrys that we are shipping to the middle east. Lexus is only going to take more steps to insure a damage free transport. And even on the of chance that there was damage there would be a paper trail. That car wouldn't just disappear for a couple of days with out anyone knowing or any paper trail.

MEAHT

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Doug. Meant to point this out sooner but your posts have been on point, can definitely convey the message better than I could

Honestly SW15LS your posts are always more than helpful but on this particular thread you come off as rude, condescending and elitist, mixed with some trash about non-english speakers.... Why would you complain about me telling the OP to ask for a new car? Thats a pretty reasonable request after something you have purchased is actually broken. We don't all live in a perfect world where bumper paint jobs are immaculate and last beyond 10 years. We are all car enthusiasts and to us it sounds when you speak it sounds very similar to what a dealer will be ****ting down your throat when you complain that your 60 thousand dollar car has a damaged bumper. Unlike the bull**** you lapped up when they gave you their "oh my god lets act shocked that we didnt know about a magically fixed bumper. You bent over for that dealer and took it like a champ considering you just agreed to plunk down 80+K. Yea good luck with your free oil changes. Sorry if you misinterpret that as whining, but one things for sure, you and me sir are cut from a different cloth.

MEAHT

SW17LS

Couple of days? That repair was probably done in about 45 minutes. My car was taken from the dealer to the bodyshop about noon, by 5:00 it was back at the dealer for me to pick it up. Bumper perfect. It wasn't being worked on the whole time it was there either.

No matter what steps one takes, there will ALWAYS be damage at transport. Loading all those cars onto and off of trucks, onto and off of ships, onto and off of trains, moving them around dealer lots. I see cars parked up against each other on dealer lots all the time.

I'm complaining because its not good advice. No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about if you think "thats a reasonable request". You don't understand the economics at work here. When you return something to the store, the manufacturer takes it back. The store is not stuck with that loss. This isn't an iPod. This car has been titled, he took delivery of it. Lexus isn't going to take it back, and the car cannot be sold as new. So, the dealer is going to absorb probably a $10,000 loss. Is that reasonable? When the bumper can be repainted to as new condition for $1000? No, its not.

You have any idea what cars and service would cost if that was the kind of liability they'd be looking at if they scratch a car? Good night.

LOL, I didn't bend over and take anything. I noticed the damage before I took delivery of the car. There were no other cars in the region with the equipment level and color combination I wanted. The dealer had a car with a different color interior, and I could have very easily had that. So I decided to allow them to paint the bumper VS driving a car with an interior I didn't want for a number of years. Now my bumper is perfect, and I have the car I actually wanted. Not sure how "someone ****ted down my throat"?

Some people get so worked up on the "principle" of the thing they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.

bclexus

The burden to discover 'already' repaired/repainted body work should not be on the buyer of a brand new car. Again, that is totally ridiculous! Can you imagine a sign hanging on Lexus' new car showroom doors that says; 'Buyers of our new Lexus vehicles have the burden of discovering any damage we withhold from telling you about.' And, I'm not talking about minor little pencil paint touch-ups and the like... But when something as large as a bumper is repainted - that is a significant and sizable piece of the vehicle's body. I firmly believe this should have been disclosed. And, I would argue that regardless of the cost to the dealer to make this repair, that this repair is not something that a new vehicle buyer expects to discover after purchase...and further, if this repair was made by the buyer - it would indeed cost more than $1,000. Lastly, the Lexus dealership does not want or need any unnecessary problems arising from this careless oversight. It all depends on how much pressure one is willing to put on the dealership to make this right and satisfy the OP. He may say, it ain't no big deal and be satisfied with it as-is. Or, he may take the dealer's offer to repaint the bumper a 2nd time and take the clear bra. But, I can assure you that there are many people that would take any course necessary to get what they thought they were originally purchasing...which is a mint brand new car.

SW17LS

Then write your congressman and get the law changed. Go out and open a dealership and run it your way. I don't run a dealership, I'm just telling you how this all works from many years of experience. You posted the threshhold, not me.

Wishing and wanting something to be a certain way does not make it so. Nobody you do business with really gives a crap about you in the end, you have to look out for yourself. When something goes wrong, if you press for and accept a reasonable solution (i.e. not "loose $10,000 by giving me a new car because of this minor damage") you will get way farther than if you rant and rave and make unreasonable demands. If you go in yelling "I want a new car, I'm going to talk to my lawyer" you know what their response will be? Good luck. Their lawyers are on retainer.

Not unless the bumper cover needed to be replaced, and then only maybe. Even so...it doesn't matter because its not being made by the buyer. Want to fight about that? Write the attorney general and battle it out in court.

Then they can get an attorney, and spend their time and money ranting and raving over something that may or may not result in them getting a new car drawn out over years or months. Me? I'll take my repainted bumper to my satisfaction and my clearbra please. I have enough drama in my life.

bclexus

Steve - Would you expect to be told that the front bumper of this brand new $346,775 McLaren 650S Spider at my local McLaren dealership had been repainted before you purchased it? Yes, No....Maybe so!

SW17LS

No. The law is the law, it doesn't matter what the car costs. I would thoroughly inspect the car before taking deliver, as I always do, and if everything looks fine...I'd take delivery. If I found out after the fact that the bumper was a repaint, but it looks perfect as it did before I bought it...I wouldn't care. You said it yourself, they don't have to disclose repairs to a new car under $1,000.

Thats the honest truth.

The OP's repaint was done poorly. Can't be that poorly, he didn't notice it for 2 weeks. The dealer is going to completely replace the bumper and repaint it, and give him a clearbra for his trouble. What more can they do? "Should they have disclosed it?!" even if they should have...they didn't...its done. Should the OP hire an attorney and fight for months or just accept the bumper and move on?

bclexus

Wow! That's hard to believe...

Your comment that 'the law is the law' makes me laugh. The law is not as easy as being defined as a sure thing. Interpretation of a law is the central aspect of law.