Brake flush price ?
06-16-18, 07:15 PM
#31
Lexus enginears must be real idiots for suggesting fluid flushes at 30k... Got my 14 RX done a couple of weeks ago for $120 with a coupon at the dealer. For that kind of chump change it's not worth it to me personally to get under the car for that kind of $$. It's amazing how many people on this forum are so cheap when it comes to their $50k car!
06-16-18, 07:44 PM
#32
I change my brake fluid mybe every 6 month cuz it get brown so fast. my others car don't even turn brown after I change my brake fluid and it still yellow today. our brakes get very hot and it will break down the stuff inside the fluid. but its ur car, I brought this car so Im trying to maintain it till I got my money worth on this car. lol
06-16-18, 08:39 PM
#33
I change my brake fluid mybe every 6 month cuz it get brown so fast. my others car don't even turn brown after I change my brake fluid and it still yellow today. our brakes get very hot and it will break down the stuff inside the fluid. but its ur car, I brought this car so Im trying to maintain it till I got my money worth on this car. lol
06-16-18, 09:29 PM
#34
And a fresh oil change gets considerably browner well within the oil change interval, that doesn't mean that the oil isn't doing its job. I'm still also trying to figure out the gnomish mysticism by which water enters a system that's supposed to be sealed unless there's some parts in there that cause condensation and the condensate contaminates the system....
-Mike
-Mike
06-16-18, 10:26 PM
#35
And a fresh oil change gets considerably browner well within the oil change interval, that doesn't mean that the oil isn't doing its job. I'm still also trying to figure out the gnomish mysticism by which water enters a system that's supposed to be sealed unless there's some parts in there that cause condensation and the condensate contaminates the system....
-Mike
-Mike
06-17-18, 01:16 PM
#36
Pole Position
And why would you not use a 15% off coupon the dealer gives you if your going to have a service done there? 50k car or not, cars require PM's if you want longevity out of the vehicle!
06-17-18, 01:21 PM
#37
Look up hygroscopic...
Brake fluid service is probably the #1 neglected service.
You can just suck out the reservoir and top off; that will help.
Next is to remove front wheels and pump through fluid till it runs clear.
Remember, you are not bleeding, just flushing; start with the driver side.
Finally, flushing the rears completes the job.
You will feel a difference; more so if the service is overdue.
I do this at approximately 60K intervals.
Brake fluid service is probably the #1 neglected service.
You can just suck out the reservoir and top off; that will help.
Next is to remove front wheels and pump through fluid till it runs clear.
Remember, you are not bleeding, just flushing; start with the driver side.
Finally, flushing the rears completes the job.
You will feel a difference; more so if the service is overdue.
I do this at approximately 60K intervals.
06-26-18, 05:12 PM
#38
Richard is right..there is venting between the atmosphere and the reservoir which pulls moist air into the reservoir. This vent needs to be there as the fluid level in the reservoir changes slightly upon use. This moisture is exposed to the fluid, and since the fluid attracts moisture, is absorbed readily.
Eventually enough moisture is present that there is no longer sufficient hydraulic force to push on the caliper pistons enough to brake hard. This is because water compresses more easily than brake fluid. The difference is not much in reality so the brake system will still "feel" OK and the brakes will work OK, just not quite as good as they should. It's under heavy (let's say going down a long mountain pass or heavy track use), the brake fluid can become extremely hot from the heat soak from the hot rotors, pads and calipers. When the fluid becomes water borne, it boils more readily, and when this happens you will have no brakes as it will introduce air into the system, which does not compress. The pedal will go the floor and will not return until the fluid stops boiling. Under very rare situations would this be a problem assuming the brake system is well designed and functioning well otherwise, simply because you have to really get them hot to boil them.
Take a look at boiling point comparison here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
l'll bleed them when I do brakes while the car is up on jack stands. It's not that big of a deal and with another person to pour in fluid along with a $15 vacuum system it doesn't take too long and doesn't cost much.
Also note that a lot of mechanics will suck out the fluid in the reservoir before doing a brake job simply to avoid spilling any when pushing the pistons back into the calipers. The fluid will eat paint and you don't want this in your eye so they will take care not to spill it. This will not flush the brakes, but does put in a lot of fresh fluid (assuming they didn't reuse it).
If you don't want to mess around with bleeding it, you could just suck out the old fluid and refill and and do it again in a week or two, maybe a third time if you're well beyond 30k miles. This will get most of it out. Be sure to clean the hose/turkey baster well--do not introduce any foreign dirt or oils into the reservoir.
Eventually enough moisture is present that there is no longer sufficient hydraulic force to push on the caliper pistons enough to brake hard. This is because water compresses more easily than brake fluid. The difference is not much in reality so the brake system will still "feel" OK and the brakes will work OK, just not quite as good as they should. It's under heavy (let's say going down a long mountain pass or heavy track use), the brake fluid can become extremely hot from the heat soak from the hot rotors, pads and calipers. When the fluid becomes water borne, it boils more readily, and when this happens you will have no brakes as it will introduce air into the system, which does not compress. The pedal will go the floor and will not return until the fluid stops boiling. Under very rare situations would this be a problem assuming the brake system is well designed and functioning well otherwise, simply because you have to really get them hot to boil them.
Take a look at boiling point comparison here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
l'll bleed them when I do brakes while the car is up on jack stands. It's not that big of a deal and with another person to pour in fluid along with a $15 vacuum system it doesn't take too long and doesn't cost much.
Also note that a lot of mechanics will suck out the fluid in the reservoir before doing a brake job simply to avoid spilling any when pushing the pistons back into the calipers. The fluid will eat paint and you don't want this in your eye so they will take care not to spill it. This will not flush the brakes, but does put in a lot of fresh fluid (assuming they didn't reuse it).
If you don't want to mess around with bleeding it, you could just suck out the old fluid and refill and and do it again in a week or two, maybe a third time if you're well beyond 30k miles. This will get most of it out. Be sure to clean the hose/turkey baster well--do not introduce any foreign dirt or oils into the reservoir.
Last edited by SpicedRum; 06-26-18 at 06:44 PM.
06-26-18, 08:24 PM
#39
Charley, you wrote: "It's amazing how many people on this forum are so cheap when it comes to their $50k car!" That is a condescending comment. You're calling people cheap yet you use a coupon. Ironic. I maintain my car and I maintain it as cheaply as necessary.
Last edited by dougm213; 06-26-18 at 08:28 PM.
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Knucklebus (06-27-18)
06-26-18, 08:38 PM
#40
Instructor
Richard is right..there is venting between the atmosphere and the reservoir which pulls moist air into the reservoir. This vent needs to be there as the fluid level in the reservoir changes slightly upon use. This moisture is exposed to the fluid, and since the fluid attracts moisture, is absorbed readily.
Eventually enough moisture is present that there is no longer sufficient hydraulic force to push on the caliper pistons enough to brake hard. This is because water compresses more easily than brake fluid. The difference is not much in reality so the brake system will still "feel" OK and the brakes will work OK, just not quite as good as they should. It's under heavy (let's say going down a long mountain pass or heavy track use), the brake fluid can become extremely hot from the heat soak from the hot rotors, pads and calipers. When the fluid becomes water borne, it boils more readily, and when this happens you will have no brakes as it will introduce air into the system, which does not compress. The pedal will go the floor and will not return until the fluid stops boiling. Under very rare situations would this be a problem assuming the brake system is well designed and functioning well otherwise, simply because you have to really get them hot to boil them.
Take a look at boiling point comparison here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
l'll bleed them when I do brakes while the car is up on jack stands. It's not that big of a deal and with another person to pour in fluid along with a $15 vacuum system it doesn't take too long and doesn't cost much.
Also note that a lot of mechanics will suck out the fluid in the reservoir before doing a brake job simply to avoid spilling any when pushing the pistons back into the calipers. The fluid will eat paint and you don't want this in your eye so they will take care not to spill it. This will not flush the brakes, but does put in a lot of fresh fluid (assuming they didn't reuse it).
If you don't want to mess around with bleeding it, you could just suck out the old fluid and refill and and do it again in a week or two, maybe a third time if you're well beyond 30k miles. This will get most of it out. Be sure to clean the hose/turkey baster well--do not introduce any foreign dirt or oils into the reservoir.
Eventually enough moisture is present that there is no longer sufficient hydraulic force to push on the caliper pistons enough to brake hard. This is because water compresses more easily than brake fluid. The difference is not much in reality so the brake system will still "feel" OK and the brakes will work OK, just not quite as good as they should. It's under heavy (let's say going down a long mountain pass or heavy track use), the brake fluid can become extremely hot from the heat soak from the hot rotors, pads and calipers. When the fluid becomes water borne, it boils more readily, and when this happens you will have no brakes as it will introduce air into the system, which does not compress. The pedal will go the floor and will not return until the fluid stops boiling. Under very rare situations would this be a problem assuming the brake system is well designed and functioning well otherwise, simply because you have to really get them hot to boil them.
Take a look at boiling point comparison here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
l'll bleed them when I do brakes while the car is up on jack stands. It's not that big of a deal and with another person to pour in fluid along with a $15 vacuum system it doesn't take too long and doesn't cost much.
Also note that a lot of mechanics will suck out the fluid in the reservoir before doing a brake job simply to avoid spilling any when pushing the pistons back into the calipers. The fluid will eat paint and you don't want this in your eye so they will take care not to spill it. This will not flush the brakes, but does put in a lot of fresh fluid (assuming they didn't reuse it).
If you don't want to mess around with bleeding it, you could just suck out the old fluid and refill and and do it again in a week or two, maybe a third time if you're well beyond 30k miles. This will get most of it out. Be sure to clean the hose/turkey baster well--do not introduce any foreign dirt or oils into the reservoir.
- Water, or any commonly known liquid, is NOT compressible to any significant degree. This is how hydraulics work, liquids don't compress therefore input nearly equals output.
- Air is very compressible, hence the reason you don't want any in your brake lines.
- When water boils it doesn't create air, it creates steam. It takes a lot of hard braking to create steam.
- The top of the brake reservoir on most vehicles has a rubber bladder top that seals the cavity and will pull down when the fluid is drawn down to fill the calipers as the pads wear. It keeps the air gap to a minimum and no outside air is vented in normally.
- Yes, DOT3 & DOT4 are hygroscopic and they can absorb a fair amount of moisture without harming the system much like ethanol in gas will absorb water in the tank.
- DOT3 & DOT4 fluids, by design, are able to hold water in suspension so that water doesn't settle and corrode the lowest point in the brake system.
- Suctioning the master, refilling and repeating will have almost no impact on the calipers, which is where the risk of boiling the suspended water happens.
- Opening the system to siphon out the master probably lets in more moisture than the sealed system would normally absorb in 50,000 miles, negating the value of the process.
06-27-18, 03:15 AM
#41
There is a cheap ($10) way of doing it. It is a fairly quick job as well. Cost is only for the breakfluid.
NB: I will do this in a newish car. Or rahter any car that has fairly new breakfluid in. Not a car with 100miler plus on breakfluid in reservoir for instance. Reason for that is you are pumping fluid out using your breakpedal. Reason this is not advised is because the master cylinder may be pitted as a result of moisture and you may thus damage the seal. Anyways. I have always done it like this and never had an issue. You need your wife to assist though .
1. empty break-fluid reservoir using turkey baster and fill with new fluid.
2. raise the rear of the car.
3. Remove a rear wheel
4. take a plastic container and plastic (see through tube) that will fit over the bleed nipple.
5. please pipe over nipple
6. ask wife to depress pedal and hold
7. release nipple with small spanner. fluid will flow
8. tighten nipple again. No need to go tighter than finger tight. All you want is for fluid not to be pulled back in when step 9 happens.
9. she may release pedal now.
10. repeat step 6-9 till you see new fluid come through the pipe.
11. Add fluid again.
12. repeat on other rear wheel. Will take much less time now before fluid is clear
13. Do for each of the front calipers.
14. Done
all old fluid is now removed and new fluid in the system without the need for any bleeding.
NB: I will do this in a newish car. Or rahter any car that has fairly new breakfluid in. Not a car with 100miler plus on breakfluid in reservoir for instance. Reason for that is you are pumping fluid out using your breakpedal. Reason this is not advised is because the master cylinder may be pitted as a result of moisture and you may thus damage the seal. Anyways. I have always done it like this and never had an issue. You need your wife to assist though .
1. empty break-fluid reservoir using turkey baster and fill with new fluid.
2. raise the rear of the car.
3. Remove a rear wheel
4. take a plastic container and plastic (see through tube) that will fit over the bleed nipple.
5. please pipe over nipple
6. ask wife to depress pedal and hold
7. release nipple with small spanner. fluid will flow
8. tighten nipple again. No need to go tighter than finger tight. All you want is for fluid not to be pulled back in when step 9 happens.
9. she may release pedal now.
10. repeat step 6-9 till you see new fluid come through the pipe.
11. Add fluid again.
12. repeat on other rear wheel. Will take much less time now before fluid is clear
13. Do for each of the front calipers.
14. Done
all old fluid is now removed and new fluid in the system without the need for any bleeding.
06-27-18, 06:23 AM
#42
Instructor
There is a cheap ($10) way of doing it. It is a fairly quick job as well. Cost is only for the breakfluid.
NB: I will do this in a newish car. Or rahter any car that has fairly new breakfluid in. Not a car with 100miler plus on breakfluid in reservoir for instance. Reason for that is you are pumping fluid out using your breakpedal. Reason this is not advised is because the master cylinder may be pitted as a result of moisture and you may thus damage the seal. Anyways. I have always done it like this and never had an issue. You need your wife to assist though .
1. empty break-fluid reservoir using turkey baster and fill with new fluid.
2. raise the rear of the car.
3. Remove a rear wheel
4. take a plastic container and plastic (see through tube) that will fit over the bleed nipple.
5. please pipe over nipple
6. ask wife to depress pedal and hold
7. release nipple with small spanner. fluid will flow
8. tighten nipple again. No need to go tighter than finger tight. All you want is for fluid not to be pulled back in when step 9 happens.
9. she may release pedal now.
10. repeat step 6-9 till you see new fluid come through the pipe.
11. Add fluid again.
12. repeat on other rear wheel. Will take much less time now before fluid is clear
13. Do for each of the front calipers.
14. Done
all old fluid is now removed and new fluid in the system without the need for any bleeding.
NB: I will do this in a newish car. Or rahter any car that has fairly new breakfluid in. Not a car with 100miler plus on breakfluid in reservoir for instance. Reason for that is you are pumping fluid out using your breakpedal. Reason this is not advised is because the master cylinder may be pitted as a result of moisture and you may thus damage the seal. Anyways. I have always done it like this and never had an issue. You need your wife to assist though .
1. empty break-fluid reservoir using turkey baster and fill with new fluid.
2. raise the rear of the car.
3. Remove a rear wheel
4. take a plastic container and plastic (see through tube) that will fit over the bleed nipple.
5. please pipe over nipple
6. ask wife to depress pedal and hold
7. release nipple with small spanner. fluid will flow
8. tighten nipple again. No need to go tighter than finger tight. All you want is for fluid not to be pulled back in when step 9 happens.
9. she may release pedal now.
10. repeat step 6-9 till you see new fluid come through the pipe.
11. Add fluid again.
12. repeat on other rear wheel. Will take much less time now before fluid is clear
13. Do for each of the front calipers.
14. Done
all old fluid is now removed and new fluid in the system without the need for any bleeding.
Additionally, there are replacement bleeders called speed bleeders that are a one way valve so that you can essentially bleed the whole system by yourself without assistance.
06-27-18, 06:30 AM
#43
Generally, you can gravity bleed a system simply by placing a hose on the end of the bleeder, as you indicated, and cracking it open. It isn't as fast but just as effective. When bleeding brakes, it is the recommended practice to start at the farthest, which on US domestic cars would be the passenger back. Then work your way to the next farthest, ending at the driver front.
Additionally, there are replacement bleeders called speed bleeders that are a one way valve so that you can essentially bleed the whole system by yourself without assistance.
Additionally, there are replacement bleeders called speed bleeders that are a one way valve so that you can essentially bleed the whole system by yourself without assistance.
06-27-18, 10:29 AM
#44
I put some feedback inline to help keep things straight. As a valued member, I certainly appreciate your feedback.
So wrong on so many points.
- Water, or any commonly known liquid, is NOT compressible to any significant degree. This is how hydraulics work, liquids don't compress therefore input nearly equals output.
- Air is very compressible, hence the reason you don't want any in your brake lines.
- When water boils it doesn't create air, it creates steam. It takes a lot of hard braking to create steam.
- The top of the brake reservoir on most vehicles has a rubber bladder top that seals the cavity and will pull down when the fluid is drawn down to fill the calipers as the pads wear. It keeps the air gap to a minimum and no outside air is vented in normally.
- Yes, DOT3 & DOT4 are hygroscopic and they can absorb a fair amount of moisture without harming the system much like ethanol in gas will absorb water in the tank.
- DOT3 & DOT4 fluids, by design, are able to hold water in suspension so that water doesn't settle and corrode the lowest point in the brake system.
- Suctioning the master, refilling and repeating will have almost no impact on the calipers, which is where the risk of boiling the suspended water happens.
- Opening the system to siphon out the master probably lets in more moisture than the sealed system would normally absorb in 50,000 miles, negating the value of the process.
06-27-18, 11:38 AM
#45
Instructor
My DOT3 statements are not contradictory they are complimentary. Brake fluid will absorb moisture if exposed to it. A sealed (or semi sealed) system will not draw (much) moisture. Any that is absorbed will be held in suspension and not pool, as in water and oil. They do not separate out into stratified layers. Therefore, the water in suspension is held in a state where it does little harm to the brake system. Through normal use, any absorbed water will disperse to the whole system. Getting contaminants in is a lot easier than getting them out. An ounce of gas in water will contaminate the many gallons, no amount of switching one cup of polluted water with clean at a time will ever get the water pure enough to be potable again in a reasonable amount of exchanges.
In the brake failures I've ever had to correct, most were from:
- Flex lines going to wheels get eaten up from constant flexing and bulge or collapse.
- Hard lines being exposed to externally corrosive environments, aka driven on the sea beach/heavily salted roads.